can we loose salvation ......

[PastorGreg]

Ephesians 1
God has... chosen me, predestined me to be like Christ, adopted me, made me accepted in the beloved, sealed me with His spirit, redeemed me, forgiven my sins, abounded toward me in all wisdom and prudence, blessed me with all spiritual blessings.
Then, when I lose my salvation He unchooses me, unpredestines me, unadopts me, make me unaccepted, unseals me, unredeems me, unforgives me, unabounds toward me, unblesses me, then does it all over again when I get saved again? Get real. The whole issue is about the character of God!

 

[BobRyan]

Dear BobRyan, I won't argue this with a SDA! .

I win just because I am SDA??!!:thumbs:

That was easy.

In the mean time "the Bible texts listed -- remain"

 

[BobRyan]

However to "TEST" OSAS you need a text that actually addresses points like the following -

1. Can you have your forgiveness revoked? (Matt 18)
2. After being joined to Christ can you be "severed from Christ"? (Gal 5)
3. After entering into salvation and under grace can you "Fall from Grace"? (Gal 5)
4. After being united to Christ in the VINE of Christ - can you be "cut off", spiritually die, and then be burned? (John 15:1-7)
5. After being joined to the body of Christ by faith - can you be removed for "unbelief" just like the unbelieving Jews? (Rom 11)
6. Once God has removed someone from the body of Christ - from union with Christ -- can he "restore them once again if they do not continue in UNBELIEF"? (Rom 11)

In otherwords IF we go to texts that explicitly deal with these subjects of losing forgiveness -- losing salvation -- and they teach an OSAS friendly view that "no such thing can possibly happen" THEN you have actual Bible support for OSAS.

Seems like a good exercise for the unbiased objective reader.

Careful avoidance of those texts when promoting OSAS "instead" has been noted.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Ephesians 1
God has... chosen me, predestined me to be like Christ, adopted me, made me accepted in the beloved, sealed me with His spirit, redeemed me, forgiven my sins, abounded toward me in all wisdom and prudence, blessed me with all spiritual blessings.
Then, when I lose my salvation He unchooses me, unpredestines me, unadopts me, make me unaccepted, unseals me, unredeems me, unforgives me, unabounds toward me, unblesses me, then does it all over again when I get saved again? Get real. The whole issue is about the character of God!

I think you are overlooking a key point about that passage in Ephesians, and that is the "predestination", "blessing with every spiritual blessing", "choosing", the "inheritance", etc are predicated on our being in Him (Christ) (v.3,4,6,7,10,11, etc).

The Apostle John wrote: "And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has (present tense) the Son has life; he who does not (present tense) have the Son of God does not have life." (1 John 5:11-12)

So the "whole issue" is not about the "character of God", but rather also involves our responsible relationship to Him.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Careful avoidance of those texts when promoting OSAS "instead" has been noted.

in Christ,

Bob

Wow...something Bob and I agree on. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[BobRyan]

Wow...something Bob and I agree on. :smilewinkgrin:

I predict the people I differ with on "Tradition vs sola-scriptura" are the very ones that I do agree with when it comes to the scriptural arguments about OSAS not being correct.

This is a case where the text of scripture is clearly on your side. Can't fight 'em so join 'em.

This is also a place where I can agree with those Calvinists who argue that Arminians have no logical foundation for holding to OSAS!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Doubting Thomas]

This is also a place where I can agree with those Calvinists who argue that Arminians have no logical foundation for holding to OSAS!

Good point...I agree with that as well.

 

[PastorGreg]

I think you are overlooking a key point about that passage in Ephesians, and that is the "predestination", "blessing with every spiritual blessing", "choosing", the "inheritance", etc are predicated on our being in Him (Christ) (v.3,4,6,7,10,11, etc).

The Apostle John wrote: "And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has (present tense) the Son has life; he who does not (present tense) have the Son of God does not have life." (1 John 5:11-12)

So the "whole issue" is not about the "character of God", but rather also involves our responsible relationship to Him.

The whole issue IS the character of God. The fact that Ephesians 1 is about being in Christ doesn't change it. When I'm in Christ God does all these things. I decide to get out of Christ, so He undoes them, back in, He does them again... Ludicrous

 

[BobRyan]

Since there is still some reluctance to actually look into the test cases for OSAS from scripture...

Matt 18 "Forgiveness revoked"

God says "I FORGAVE you" and argues that the servant SHOULD have in like manner forgiven his fellow servant.

THEN God revokes the forgiveness given and makes the unfaithful servant pay ALL that was owed himself.

Christ then applys the lesson this way to all His followers "SO shall My heavenly Father do to each one of YOU if YOU do not forgive others"

Looks like OSAS does not survive in that one example alone.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Doubting Thomas]

The whole issue IS the character of God. The fact that Ephesians 1 is about being in Christ doesn't change it. When I'm in Christ God does all these things. I decide to get out of Christ, so He undoes them, back in, He does them again... Ludicrous

No, on the contrary, those things apply to only those in Christ--those things are not some external necessary realities independent of our actual relationship to Christ. We are chosen in Christ, redeemed in Christ, and have our inheritance in Christ, and blessed with every spiriual blessing in Christ. If we leave Christ, it's our fault--not a fault in the character of God.

If the branch doesn't abide in the Vine and bear fruit, it is cut off (John 15). If one doesn't continue in faith, in the goodness of God, that one is cut off (Romans 11:18-22).

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

IAB17,
In regards to the idea that one can be saved, then lose, then saved again you said...



Your statement confuses the objective work of Christ with the subjective appropriation of that work by the believer. In other words, if one presses your logic then one of two conclusions must result:
(1)Universalism--everyone now (since the Crucifixion) is automatically saved; or
(2)The Elect is now (since the Crucifixion) automatically saved--which would be a variant of Calvinism.

NNE is automatically saved until he/she kneels at the cross.

Jesus died once for all (or whosoever) who believe on the name of Jesus Christ and accept the fact that He is the only Begotten Son of God and take Him as your Lord and Savior.

How is that confusing?

John 10:27-29 is speak of God's sheep who hear and FOLLOW, long as they are remain in Christ's hand - secure.

If we had to do something to keep our salvation, it would be a salvation of works and I have a salvation of faith...not works. I did nothing for my salvation but accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.

I did nothing to gain it, nor can I do anything to lose it.

John 10:29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.

'Man' in this verse refers to both sexes i.e. mankind. I am included in that group so I cannot pluck myself out of God's hand. :godisgood:

As far as the prodigal son. Yes, he was lost (in the world) for a time, but his father was still his father. Only the close fellowship was broken, not the relationship.

Blessings,
§ue

 

[Doubting Thomas]

NNE is automatically saved until he/she kneels at the cross.

Jesus died once for all (or whosoever) who believe on the name of Jesus Christ and accept the fact that He is the only Begotten Son of God and take Him as your Lord and Savior.

How is that confusing?

Because of what follows...

I did nothing to gain it, nor can I do anything to lose it

So you admit that did you not possess salvation until you "knelt at the cross", and that being the case, there was something you "did" to appropriate it--ie, kneel at the cross. If indeed there is something you did to appropriate it (ie have faith) what makes you think you can't do something to lose it (ie through failing to continue in faith? --see Romans 11;19-22, 1 Cor 15:2, Col 1:23, etc)

If we had to do something to keep our salvation, it would be a salvation of works and I have a salvation of faith...not works. I did nothing for my salvation but accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.

Again, did you not exercise faith to receive salvation? What makes you think you can't also refuse to continue in the faith (as the above Scriptures and many others indicate is a real possibility)?

.

John 10:29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.

'Man' in this verse refers to both sexes i.e. mankind. I am included in that group so I cannot pluck myself out of God's hand.

But this only applies to those who are actively hearing the voice of Christ and following Him (see verse 27). It is not some magical promise that one can never fall away from Christ even if he doesn't continue to listen to and follow Him, which as indicated by so many other Scriptures is a real possibility.

(At any rate, salvation does involve "works" since faith without works is dead and can't save (James 2) and that the only thing that avails is faith which works through love (Galatians 5:6). )

 

[BobRyan]

John 10:29 "No one is able to pluck them from my hand" --

Satan can not take us from God by force. but as we see with Adam - God allows his own "to leave".

But can we "push this further" to mean that God "eliminates free will for the saved"??



As we see in the case of Israel God allows "his chosen nation" to leave.

As we see with Matt 18 - God allows his FORGIVEN saints to choose and then to have their forgiveness revoked.

 

[AAA]

I truely believe that we can NOT lose our salvation...

Look also at:

John 10:28-29... What can pluck us from the hand of GOD?

 

[BobRyan]

No, on the contrary, those things apply to only those in Christ--those things are not some external necessary realities independent of our actual relationship to Christ. We are chosen in Christ, redeemed in Christ, and have our inheritance in Christ, and blessed with every spiriual blessing in Christ. If we leave Christ, it's our fault--not a fault in the character of God.

If the branch doesn't abide in the Vine and bear fruit, it is cut off (John 15). If one doesn't continue in faith, in the goodness of God, that one is cut off (Romans 11:18-22).

That is true. But if you ignore those texts -- and others like them -- you could easily get OSAS.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DeafPosttrib]

OSAS is an itching ear and comfortable doctrine. It is popular among religions in America. Because they don't have to worry about their salvation long as they continue sinning daily while they believe they are already saved because of Christ's blood already paid all their sins, and long as they believe Christ stills secure them in His hand, no matter what happen to them.

True, John 10:28-29 is a beautiful and wonderful promise of God, that He have the power to secure us in his hand, no one include Satan can take us away from his hand. Amen. This verse which speak toward sheep who 'hear' and 'FOLLOW' Christ. Long as they remain follow Christ, they are still secure in Christ's hand. Or if they stop follow Him, then they might be loosed out of his hand, just like as Luke 15:1-7 telling us, a sheep CAN become lose if walk away from the shpeherd. We are like as sheep. We could lose if we stop follow Christ and turn away from the Lord, remain in dark.

There are so much overwhelmed in the Bible throughout from Genesis to Revelation mentioned on conditional salvation with warnings. No way that we can afford to neglect them. We must take heed what God's Word saying, obey them and keep His commandment, so, we can have eternal life and victory at the end of our life or Christ comes - Matt. 10:22; Matt. 24:13. If we stop in the midst of our lifetime, back to world again, and remain in it till our death, then we shall not be saved.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

It is popular among religions in America. Because they don't have to worry about their salvation long as they continue sinning daily

I did not say that OSAS gave me a license to sin. I say with Paul, "God forbid"...

If I sin, I lose my fellowship with God until I confess, but I do NOT lose my relationship (salvation). God is still my Father and I am still one of His sheep.

At the time I got saved, when I was in my thirties, I needed something to hold on to, something that I could not lose, something that I could not mess up, something I could trust, something that no one could take away from me.

I got that in salvation and I became a new creature. Yes, I have sinned. I am a sinner saved by grace. Thank God for I John 1:9!

 

[Darron Steele]

It is popular among religions in America. Because they don't have to worry about their salvation long as they continue sinning daily

The viewpoint that "OSAS" = Eternal Security/Perseverance means that `We get to sin' seems to suggest some problematic attitudes.

Is the main reason some people avoid is just `eternal fire deterrent?' Do these people not genuinely want to do the will of the Lord just because they should? What about doing the will of the Lord just because we believe the ways of the Lord are right, and should be followed? What about doing the will of the Lord because we love Him and want to please Him?

A belief that we cannot lose salvation is not `license to sin.' If the only reason a person can imagine to serve the Lord is just to keep oneself out of Hell, it might seem as such. For those who serve the Lord because we know that is our rightful, and we wish to in order to please our Master, that belief is no such thing.

I am not saying that the person who wrote this does not love the Lord. However, I am concerned about the attitude shown by that comment -- and similar comments made by others. Also, these people seem to not understand what motivates many Christians to serve.

 

[BobRyan]

The whole issue IS the character of God. The fact that Ephesians 1 is about being in Christ doesn't change it. When I'm in Christ God does all these things. I decide to get out of Christ, so He undoes them, back in, He does them again... Ludicrous

Here is the question - in discussing the "character of God" is it not a basic principle that we need to be able to "trust God's Word"?

If you think about the "you can lose salvation" POV for just a second and ask yourself if these are the statements one would expect to find in scripture when it comes to the subject of losing salvation -- what is the objective unbiased answer?

consider them ..

However to "TEST" OSAS you need a text that actually addresses points like the following -

1. Can you have your forgiveness revoked? (Matt 18)
2. After being joined to Christ can you be "severed from Christ"? (Gal 5)
3. After entering into salvation and under grace can you "Fall from Grace"? (Gal 5)
4. After being united to Christ in the VINE of Christ - can you be "cut off", spiritually die, and then be burned? (John 15:1-7)
5. After being joined to the body of Christ by faith - can you be removed for "unbelief" just like the unbelieving Jews? (Rom 11)
6. Once God has removed someone from the body of Christ - from union with Christ -- can he "restore them once again if they do not continue in UNBELIEF"? (Rom 11)

In otherwords IF we go to texts that explicitly deal with these subjects of losing forgiveness -- losing salvation -- and they teach an OSAS friendly view that "no such thing can possibly happen" THEN you have actual Bible support for OSAS.

Seems like a good exercise for the unbiased objective reader.

On the other hand if we go to these texts with an "OSAS at all costs" bias the challenge "becomes" -- "how far can I wrench the text in favor of OSAS no matter what the cost".

If you come to these texts with a "I believe OSAS because it is what the Bible teaches" approach and no "yet I will bend the text at all costs to get OSAS to survive it" attitude -- then you have to admit that the texts themselvs are NOT the ones quoted to PROVE OSAS rather they are quoted as something for "OSAS to SURVIVE".

I think objective unbiased readers will see that clearly.

You also have to admit that there is no wonder that people on my side of this question would argue that these are exactly the way we prefer to have the matter stated in a real warning about really losing salvation.

"Forgiveness revoked" Matt 18
"Severed from Christ - fallen from Grace" Gal 5

Etc


in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

My preference is to "believe Christ" when he says "so shall my Father do to each one of you IF you do not forgive your brother from your heart".

This is a statement Christ spoke to his own followers.

in Christ,

Bob