can we loose salvation ......

[BobRyan]

G

al 5:1 ¶ Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.


There is nothing in this portion of scripture which says you have been severed. It is not even implied.

NASB -
Gal 5
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif']4 [b]You have been [/font][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']severed from Christ[/font][FONT='Times New Roman','serif'][/[/font][FONT='Times New Roman','serif']b], you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.


Gal 5:4 New Living Translation (NLT
4 For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God’s grace.

Gal 5:4 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
4 You who are trying to be justified by the law are alienated from Christ; you have fallen from grace!

Gal 5:4 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Gal 5:4 New Life Version (NLV)
4 If you expect to be made right with God by obeying the Law, then you have turned away from Christ and His loving-favor.

Gal 5:4 Today's New International Version (TNIV)
4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.
[/font]

The lost do not "fall from grace".

The lost "are not in a state of freedom from which they fall" according to Romans 6 and Eph 2 they are in slavery to sin.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

OK, but what standard do we use to tell who is sincerely right and who is sincerely wrong?
CA

The Bible is our final authority in all matters of faith and practice. It is our standard by which we can tell who is right and wrong.
On the one hand Paul says:
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

OTOH, We are adomonished throughout the Scriptures to beware of false prophets, false teachings, or doctrine, etc.

Many people believe the way they do because they follow after the "tradition" they have been taught, instead of studying the Bible, and see what it has to say. I was like that when I was a Catholic.

Joshua challenged the nation of Israel:
Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
--Were they going to keep the "traditions of their fathers" and serve false gods? Or were they going to serve the LORD?

1 Peter 1:18-19 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
--Some people follow tradition instead of the Word of God.

Others simply reject truth because of pride.
Others are ignorant of the real truth.
In some cases (many debatable cases) the real truth may be hidden until we get to heaven. But this is not in any of the fundamentals of the faith.

 

[jniles]

thats your view angus , god bless you my friend , but i disagree.

soninme replying that she believes one can loose their salvation. I have a couple of questions.

If one could loose eternal life would it be eternal?

If eternal life is not eternal can someone please tell me what it is?

If Christ promises us eternal life for all who believe and we accept that gift would He not be terribly inaccurate in His promise of Eternal life if we could loose it?

To me this seems to be the elephant in the room, not to mention the doctrine of sealing, which I will.

"And this is the record, that God has given to us ETERNAL life, and this life is in his Son. He that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life." Looks like to me if you have Him it is a done deal

And what do you do with that pesky "doctrine of sealing"?

Ephesians 1:13
In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation—in Him when you believed—were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit. (HCSB)

If we can loose it some one is lying or at least terribly mistaken, and I don't think it is God!

I think we get confused about who is doing sinning and who is not. The penalty of sin is death and your body will in fact die or be changed. When one is indwelt by the Holy Spirit when he is given the free gift of ETERNAL life, this eternal life is your spirit's not your flesh body's life. Your flesh will continue to try to be good because you love Him, but will still stumble, intentionally at times, but stumble it will. Your spirit cannot sin since the Holy Spirit is in you and He cannot and will not.

But of course we do drag him through our mess when we are sinning in the flesh, since we are the temple of God and He is in there. JMHO.

Later,

John

 

[CarpentersApprentice]

The Bible is our final authority in all matters of faith and practice. It is our standard by which we can tell who is right and wrong.

Right. However, General Baptists and Free Will Baptists also reference the Bible to come to their conclusions.

What standard of biblical interpretation can we apply to determine who is correct: the OSAS Baptist, or the Free Will Baptist?

CA

 

[Danny Hurley]

Can we loose salvation

Before anyone says they lost their salvation, which is to say they have been born again and turned to the sinful things of the world. They need to read Hebrews 6:4,5,6, For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come., If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance, seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. So if after you thought you had been born again and your sins found you out, don't say you backslid, just say you never really was born again.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

So if after you thought you had been born again and your sins found you out, don't say you backslid, just say you never really was born again.

So in theory, if one is truely "born again" one won't sin, b/c if one sins, they're not really "born again"?

InXC
-

 

[Danny Hurley]

Can we loose salvation

Galatians 4:19 says My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you. Christ is formed in you. He will never leave nor forsake you. I am crucified with Christ; nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

 

[BobRyan]

Each time the bible warns against our falling away (Heb 6) - our being severed from Christ (Gal 5) our having forgiveness revoked (Matt 18) the response is to remove the focus where we left Christ and to focus instead on the faithful saints where "God will never leave or forsake you" as if this could ever negate the warning texts in scripture against our falling away from Christ - choosing rebellion over obedience.

But Matt 18 remains. Gal 5 remains. Heb 6 remains. John 15:1-5 remains. Romans 11 remains. Ezek 18 remains. All the warning texts of scripture are still there to tell us about the dangers of rebellion - the result of being "severed from Christ".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

I became a child of God the day I received Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior and I was given the promise of eternal security and He said, He would never leave me nor forsake me.

I don't hope so. I don't think so. I KNOW so.

I have no problem with people who do not believe in OSAS, but as for me and my house, we believe what God told us in His Holy Word...The Bible. It is our final authority.

I realize that verses are interpreted different ways by different people. This is just the way I believe it is interpreted and no one will ever change my mind.

This is not a preference...this is a conviction.

 

[BobRyan]

soninme replying that she believes one can loose their salvation. I have a couple of questions.

soninme is claiming then to accept the Bible warning of Matt 18 "Forgiveness revoked" the warning of John 15 "cut off from the vine of Christ, withered - then dying then burned in the fire", the warning of Romans 11 "removed from the olive tree of Christ for unbelief".

If one could loose eternal life would it be eternal?

If eternal life is not eternal can someone please tell me what it is?

Hint: Eternal life is NOT a "ticket" that God gives and which you then get to do with as you please.

Eternal life is the "inheritance" in heaven promised to each person in this life.

1Cor 9
23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached (the Gospel) to others, I myself will not be disqualified

Phil 3
7 But [b]whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss[/b] for the sake of Christ.
8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things[/b], and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,
9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
10 [b]that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings[/b], being conformed to His death;
11 [b]in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have [b]already obtained[/b] it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of[/b] by Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, [b]I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet[/b]; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,
14 I [b]press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

I became a child of God the day I received Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior and I was given the promise of eternal security and He said, He would never leave me nor forsake me.

I don't hope so. I don't think so. I KNOW so.

I have no problem with people who do not believe in OSAS, but as for me and my house, we believe what God told us in His Holy Word...The Bible. It is our final authority.

I realize that verses are interpreted different ways by different people. This is just the way I believe it is interpreted and no one will ever change my mind.

This is not a preference...this is a conviction.

I agree, Christ will never forsake us, but whose to say we will not forsake and turn our back on our relationship with Christ tomorrow or 5 years from now?

Just b/c I no longer agree with OSAS doesn’t mean that I believe one morning I’ll wake-up and Christ will have forsaken me…He’ll never forsake me, but again, just b/c I’m working out my own salvation, doesn’t mean I’m not a robot either, I’m still a human with freewill and God wants me to love Him on my own, just as I want my kids to love me on their own and not forced to love me. And I still everyday have a choice…follow God or turn my back…I choose to follow God, and it’s not b/c He’s forcing my hand…

InXC
-

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Galatians 4:19 says My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you. Christ is formed in you. He will never leave nor forsake you. I am crucified with Christ; nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

That didn't answer my question...you said:

So if after you thought you had been born again and your sins found you out, don't say you backslid, just say you never really was born again.​

So again, is sin a litmus test to being truely "born again". Are you saying that if one is truely "born again" that sin will not find you and if sin does find you...you're not really born again?

Do you still sin?

InXC
-

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

Yes, I still sin and I claim I John 1:9 daily. That does not make me a sinner. I am a saint saved by grace.

just b/c I'm working out my own salvation

No one can work out their own salvation. Jesus died on the cross for that. I wouldn't throw that back in His face by trying to add to it.

whose to say we will not forsake and turn our back on our relationship with Christ tomorrow

My children can turn their backs on me, but I will always be their mother.

 

[Danny Hurley]

Can we Loose salvation.....

Hebrews 10:26 says For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins. We are not perfect we sin against one another and can and should forgive one another, but if you lie,steal, commit adultry,or break the commantments of God then you have an accuser the very commandment of God, then that takes the blood of our redemmer to cover that sin or lose you from the bondage of the accuser. If one has been born again he will not break the commandments of God if he does then he has not been born again.

 

[jniles]

Each time the bible warns against our falling away (Heb 6) - our being severed from Christ (Gal 5) our having forgiveness revoked (Matt 18) the response is to remove the focus where we left Christ and to focus instead on the faithful saints where "God will never leave or forsake you" as if this could ever negate the warning texts in scripture against our falling away from Christ - choosing rebellion over obedience.

But Matt 18 remains. Gal 5 remains. Heb 6 remains. John 15:1-5 remains. Romans 11 remains. Ezek 18 remains. All the warning texts of scripture are still there to tell us about the dangers of rebellion - the result of being "severed from Christ".

in Christ,

Bob

It seems you may be reading mail intended for other people. The only scripture you quote in the list that was mail for us "the church" in the age of the "Gospel of Grace" is in fact Paul's letter to the Romans and the elephant in the room is in fact Romans 11: 29 since God's gracious gifts and calling are irrevocable.

What is so hard to understand about that?

Later,

John

 

[jniles]

I agree, Christ will never forsake us, but whose to say we will not forsake and turn our back on our relationship with Christ tomorrow or 5 years from now? . . . . .
-

Me, . . . . . I can say it. It can't be done! If you ever understood it and Him and truly accepted the gift of ETERNAL life, you can't do it! You are a slave for Him PERIOD! So get over it and spread the Word.

Later,

John

 

[jniles]

Hebrews 10:26 says For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins. We are not perfect we sin against one another and can and should forgive one another, but if you lie,steal, commit adultry,or break the commantments of God then you have an accuser the very commandment of God, then that takes the blood of our redemmer to cover that sin or lose you from the bondage of the accuser. If one has been born again he will not break the commandments of God if he does then he has not been born again.

Danny the letter to the Hebrews was just that. It was to scattered Jews of the persecution, not to Gentiles and certainly not to you. Gentiles were never given the Law we never had it! We were truly without hope until the Gospel of Grace and Christ directing Paul to bring us "those chosen before the foundation of the world" (we the Gentiles) the saving Grace of God. The book of Hebrews will also speak to Hebrews again when the church is gone from the earth and a time when one must hold on and not receive the mark.

Yes all scripture is good for teaching, doctrine, correction etc. You can learn a lot from reading other people's mail but it still is not yours. One must pay attention to for whom it is intended. The book of Hebrews is someone else's mail. It is not for you.

There are two very wise moderators here and we should pay attention to what they are attempting to teach us as both are dead on. II Tim 2: 15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. was already quoted by one of them and perhaps it bears note that Paul is telling Timothy to correctly divide the scripture as to who it is for and teach it correctly. JMHO

Later,

John

 

[Zenas]

What really got me interested in the OSAS position was a bumper sticker I saw that said, "Christians aren't perfect, they're just forgiven." That started me to wondering about the timing of being forgiven. We can all agree that when one becomes a Christian his sins are forgiven. He starts over with a clean slate, but what happens then? A few on this board would argue that if one is truely born again, he will not sin any more. But the vast majority of us would agree that Christians commit sins. What are the ramifications of commiting these sins? There are three possibilities.

1. When you are "born again" all sins are forgiven--past, present and future. As far as I can tell, this is the position taken by Charles Stanley. In that case we have no fear of anything we do sending us to hell because it is already forgiven. We may try to avoid sin out of a love for God but when we do sin, it is of no real consequence. Of course, this view that all sins are forgiven for all time makes a complete mockery of 1 John 1:8-10 because it is rendered completely useless.

2. When you are "born again" all past sins are forgiven but not all future sins. Being human as we are, we will continue to sin but these post "born again" sins, although they may cut off fellowship with God, do not sentence us to hell. Moreover, we can be restored to the fellowship by seeking forgiveness. This seems to be the position taken by The Baptist Faith and Message of the SBC. The problem with this position is that it opens the portals of heaven to those who come with unforgiven sin. This is contrary to the teachings of scripture.

3. When you are "born again" all past sins are forgiven but not all future sins. Not only do these sins cut off fellowship with God, they will deliver you to hell if you die while they remain unforgiven. Therefore it behooves us to live righteous moral lives and to seek forgiveness often. Otherwise we run the risk of going to hell when we die. This is not the most comforting of the three possibilities but I believe it is the only one that will not be found lacking when looked at logically. It honors the principle that God will not admit persons to heaven who come with unforgiven sin. It also does honor to 1 John 1:8-10 and similar passages of scripture.

This, and the many passages of scripture that contradict OSAS, is why I reject the concept. OSAS is flawed theology at best and a dangerous doctrine for immature Christians at worst. It is a doctrine that was invented rather late in the history of Christianity, and serves no useful purpose other than to make people feel good about their salvation.

 

[Rubato 1]

How you gonna end eternal life, huh?

 

[jniles]

1. When you are "born again" all sins are forgiven--past, present and future. As far as I can tell, this is the position taken by Charles Stanley. In that case we have no fear of anything we do sending us to hell because it is already forgiven. We may try to avoid sin out of a love for God but when we do sin, it is of no real consequence. Of course, this view that all sins are forgiven for all time makes a complete mockery of 1 John 1:8-10 because it is rendered completely useless.

2. When you are "born again" all past sins are forgiven but not all future sins. Being human as we are, we will continue to sin but these post "born again" sins, although they may cut off fellowship with God, do not sentence us to hell. Moreover, we can be restored to the fellowship by seeking forgiveness. This seems to be the position taken by The Baptist Faith and Message of the SBC. The problem with this position is that it opens the portals of heaven to those who come with unforgiven sin. This is contrary to the teachings of scripture.

3. When you are "born again" all past sins are forgiven but not all future sins. Not only do these sins cut off fellowship with God, they will deliver you to hell if you die while they remain unforgiven. Therefore it behooves us to live righteous moral lives and to seek forgiveness often. Otherwise we run the risk of going to hell when we die. This is not the most comforting of the three possibilities but I believe it is the only one that will not be found lacking when looked at logically. It honors the principle that God will not admit persons to heaven who come with unforgiven sin. It also does honor to 1 John 1:8-10 and similar passages of scripture. . . . . . . .

Zenas,

The only one that works is #1 since all others require you to work for it! That is not a license to do anything you want, but is a total invitation to rest in the Lord as He did it all.

There is nothing you can add to the deal. If you do add any good work you are insulting Him and His completed work. He did not die for your sins but rose from the dead to give you ETERNAL life!

He paid for the sins of the entire world (that pretty much would be ALL for ALL times even for the OT guys). Now if this is true does it make sense to keep asking for forgiveness of already forgiven sins? Sort of like saying the rosary and babbling the same stuff over and over again at some point He just might think you are completely nuts. Should we keep short accounts?

The devil likes them because he keeps you worrying about yourself and not telling our friends about the Good News.

Later,

John