can we loose salvation ......

[BobRyan]

Romans 10 asks the question of the Jews of the OT regarding the Gospel "Surely they have never heard have they?" and the answer is "INDEED THEY HAVE" with the solution in Romans 10 being that "Nature itself" is the one that testifies to God - thoroughout all the earth.

This fits perfectly with Romans 1 where we are told that even the unbelieving pagan gentiles are "without excuse for the INVISIBLE Attributes of God are CLEARLY SEEN in the THINGS that have been MADE".

Hint: I did not write Romans 1 or Romans 10 I am simply admitting to the facts of what we find there.

In John 16 Christ said that the Holy Spirit is sent out to "Convict the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" -- this is in fact true - as it turns out.

John 12:32 "I will DRAW ALL mankind unto Me" is the words of Christ about His ability to reach ALL and Draw ALL.

Again - I am simply reporting what is foud in scripture - if one is not happy with the text please don't assume I wrote it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I am having some trouble understanding DHK’s position.

1. He talks of all sins being ‘eternally’ forgiven at the cross’

2. yet clearly implies that our sins are not really forgiven until we accept the free gift. ?

Indeed - statement one conflicts with statement two. This is solved by simply taking God's Lev 16 solution "Atonement" shown to include BOTH the "atoning sacrifice" of the Lord's Goat (Christ) AND the High Priestly ministry of Christ in heaven (Heb 8-10 shows that this is occuring now).

So in 1John 2:2 NIV we have the view that "The Atoning SACRIFICE" is completed at the cross and in Heb 8-10 we have the High Priestly MINISTRY post-cross.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Havensdad]

You can not be "saved while broken off" because the Gospel is never said to be the condition of "separated from Christ - fallen from Grace".

In Romans 11 the unbelieving Jews are "broken off" because of unbelief and then the believing Jews and Gentiles are warned that "they too" may be broken off if they do not continue in belief. If you are claiming that the unbelieving Jews who were "broken off for unbelief" are in fact "experiencing the broken-off-from-christ kind of Gospel" then there needs to be some "proof" from scripture that "broken off from Christ" is another Gospel offerred in scripture.

Without that kind of Bible based evidence - the conclusion remains that "broken off" from Christ - "severed from Christ" and "fallen from Grace" are all references to "becoming lost" after being in a saved condition.

in Christ,

Bob

No problem!

The promise offered to the Jews:

Deu 11:26 "See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse:
Deu 11:27 the blessing, if you obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you today,
Deu 11:28 and the curse, if you do not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside from the way that I am commanding you today, to go after other gods that you have not known.


This promise is conditional. Note the "if".

Now, the promise given to Christians:

Heb 13:5 Let your way of life be without the love of money, and be content with such things as you have, for He has said, "Not at all will I leave you, not at all will I forsake you, never!"


Note that the Nation of Israel (referred to in the aformentioned passages of Romans) was to keep the Law, and if they did not they would be cursed and forsaken. There promise was conditional.

Note the wording in Hebrews. BECAUSE God will NEVER leave us, this should then affect our action.

Do you have a different definition for "never"?

 

[DHK]

HP: Excellent posts by the way. :thumbs: DHK’s statement you refer to here also begs the question as to why some have a desire of salvation and others must not. Who or what gives them the desire? Can one have a desire for something they have never heard of? It also begs the question as to who has heard of the gospel hope. Have all heard as BR claims, or does the clear probability exist that all have not in the past, nor will all hear in the present, the gospel of hope?

I was going to bow out of this discussion because I have already answered all these questions in my previous posts to you where I carefully explained to you what the atonement was, how it was made for all men, etc. But you either did not read what I posted, ignored it, didn't understand it (doubtful), or are just plain obstinate and want to put your ideas across again and again and again, no matter who answers them? Is that the case HP? This does get tiresome. Your questions have been answered. Why should one keep on answering them over and over again? Can you give me a good reason.

"Why do some have a desire and others not?" The Holy Spirit convicts some of their sin. Others refuse the conviciction of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit can be resisted. See Acts 7, where it is obvious the Holy Spirit was resisted and Stephen was stoned. But later Paul repented and was saved. I believe a large part of that was because of what happened at the stoning of Stephen.

Can one desire for something they have not heard?
I dealt with that question too. Why don't I just say: go back and read my posts. God will provide a way to anyone who earnestly desires to know the truth a way to hear it. In fact he has promised in His Word:

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
--If you don't understand it, just accept it by faith. It is God's Word not mine.

Thus your "clear possibility" etc., etc., really doesn't exist, does it?

DHK has to be either believe or is leaning very hard in the direction of BR’s conjecture that all have heard.

All have the capacity of hearing.
However what does HP do with the statement:

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
--I suppose he tears it out of his Bible.

I believe Scripture clears up that point very succinctly. Ro 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

If HP were truly concerned about the lost he would be a missionary to those who had never heard so that they could hear and be saved.

I would Ask DHK, how can one have a ‘want to be saved’ that has not nor may never hear of salvations plan?

God has written his law in the hearts of every man.
Romans 1:20 tells us that they are without excuse for not being saved.
Romans 2:14, 15 tells us that their conscience bears them witness, while accusing or excusing one another.

They have no excuse. God will provide a way if they so desire to hear the message of God. He has promised to do so.
I suggest you go back and read my previous posts and try to find a better understanding of these questions that I already have answered for you.

 

[Havensdad]

I was going to bow out of this discussion because I have already answered all these questions in my previous posts to you where I carefully explained to you what the atonement was, how it was made for all men, etc. But you either did not read what I posted, ignored it, didn't understand it (doubtful), or are just plain obstinate and want to put your ideas across again and again and again, no matter who answers them? Is that the case HP? This does get tiresome. Your questions have been answered. Why should one keep on answering them over and over again? Can you give me a good reason.
[/FONT][/COLOR]
"Why do some have a desire and others not?" The Holy Spirit convicts some of their sin. Others refuse the conviciction of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit can be resisted. See Acts 7, where it is obvious the Holy Spirit was resisted and Stephen was stoned. But later Paul repented and was saved. I believe a large part of that was because of what happened at the stoning of Stephen.

Scripture clearly teaches two calls. One can be resisted. The call of the Elect cannot be. Notice:

Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will in no way cast out.

How many who are given by the father will come?? How many will be cast out?

Joh 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who has sent Me draw him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Who can come to Jesus? Why all who are drawn by the father, and no one else, according to this verse. What will happen to those who are drawn on the last day? Why, they will be "raised up" (a euphemism for salvation).

Can one desire for something they have not heard?
I dealt with that question too. Why don't I just say: go back and read my posts. God will provide a way to anyone who earnestly desires to know the truth a way to hear it. In fact he has promised in His Word:

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
--If you don't understand it, just accept it by faith. It is God's Word not mine.

This is why it is important not to use the KJV as your primary translation. Some of the renderings fro Greek are horrible. Look at it from the ESV:

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

This is the correct rendering of that verse. The Grace of God has appeared (not to everyone, necessarily) bringing salvation to "all" (some of all types: i.e. all races not just the Jews) men. Obviously, your argument falls apart, when a proper translation is used. Salvation has obviously not come to all (as in every individual), for this would teach universalism.

All have the capacity of hearing.

Thats not what Paul says.

Rom 10:14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
Rom 10:15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent?

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
--I suppose he tears it out of his Bible.

Or perhaps he/she is not reading a Bible that has parts made up by a 16th century Catholic Humanist, based on a very late text, which has improper Greek renderings throughout?

If HP were truly concerned about the lost he would be a missionary to those who had never heard so that they could hear and be saved.

We should all be concerned. However, God is responsible for salvation. It is not according to Human will at all.

[/FONT][/COLOR]
God has written his law in the hearts of every man.
Romans 1:20 tells us that they are without excuse for not being saved.
Romans 2:14, 15 tells us that their conscience bears them witness, while accusing or excusing one another.

They have no excuse. God will provide a way if they so desire to hear the message of God. He has promised to do so.
I suggest you go back and read my previous posts and try to find a better understanding of these questions that I already have answered for you.

Nowhere in scripture does God promise to give every man in the world a chance to hear the Gospel. God clearly predestines those who will be saved. I would like to point out though, that this thread is supposed to be debating the "P", and not the "U". (TULIP)

 

[DHK]

Nowhere in scripture does God promise to give every man in the world a chance to hear the Gospel. God clearly predestines those who will be saved. I would like to point out though, that this thread is supposed to be debating the "P", and not the "U". (TULIP)

In truth the thread has unfortunately been derailed, as so many of these threads end up. This thread had nothing to do with Calvinism in the first place. It had to do with Scripture, not a man's theological system. Note the quote from the OP:

When a person is born again , he becomes a child of god . god is henceforth his father , and NOTHING can ever affect that relationship . A birth is something that can never be undone . A son may disgrace his father , but he still son by fact of BIRTH .

The subject matter here is eternal security of the believer, not Calvinism. Why not return to the topic of the thread and leave Calvin out of it.

 

[BobRyan]

No problem!

The promise offered to the Jews:

Deu 11:26 "See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse:
Deu 11:27 the blessing, if you obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you today,
Deu 11:28 and the curse, if you do not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside from the way that I am commanding you today, to go after other gods that you have not known.


This promise is conditional. Note the "if".

I see - kinda like the one we have in the NT --

1Cor 15:1-2
1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Rom 11:22
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness,
if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Col 1:21-23
22 He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death in order to PRESENT you before Him Holy and Blameless and beyond reproach
23 IF INDEED you CONTINUE in the faith FIRMLY established and STEADFAST and NOT MOVED AWAY from the HOPE of the Gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven and of which I Paul was made a minister.

Now, the promise given to Christians as seen above appears to have "just as many IF" if not more - does it not?


However the Jews also had the FOREVER promise of Isaiah 59 regarding the Holy Spirit AND those charged with keeping, preserving and promoting the truth of scripture.

As we all see these same kind of forever promises to Christians

Heb 13:5 Let your way of life be without the love of money, and be content with such things as you have, for He has said, "Not at all will I leave you, not at all will I forsake you, never!"

In Romans 11 the context is that the Jews failed AND that the Christians who now stand in SAME place from which the Jews fell - should view the fall of the Jews as a "warning" for "as the text says" -- IF HE DID NOT SPARE THEM - NEITHER WILL HE SPARE YOU.

It is just about impossible to miss that subtle application that Paul is making there.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

God has written his law in the hearts of every man.
Romans 1:20 tells us that they are without excuse for not being saved.

Romans 2:14, 15 tells us that their conscience bears them witness, while accusing or excusing one another.

They have no excuse.

There you have it.

And when you consider that Romans 10 answer the question "Surely they have not heard have they?" with the "INDEED THEY HAVE" answer it is pretty hard to argue that God has NOT "Sent His Spirit into the World to CONVICT the World of sin and righteousness and judgment".

It is hard to argue against John 12:32 "I will DRAW ALL unto Me".

And It is stated clearly in John 1 "HE is the light that coming into the WORLD enlightens EVERY man".

So the invitation AND the REACH of God is "to ALL" to "the entire WOrLD" --

"BEHOLD I stand at the door and knock IF ANYONE hears MY VOICE AND opens the door I WILL COME IN" Rev 3.

God IS the savior of the World - GOD is the "Lord of the HARVEST -" not man.

"SO PRAY to the Lord of the Harvest that HE will SEND workers into the fields" - God is in charge and HE is doing His job (as it turns out).

Our part in all of this is to "report to the office for our work assignment".

God is not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance and so He CONVICTS THE WORLD and He DRAWS ALL.

Mankind has a choice to make - accept the Gospel message or reject it.

Accept the Spirit of God moving like the wind upon the human heart - or reject it.

Follw the "Spirit of TRUTH that will LEAD into ALL truth" John 16 or reject it.

In John 16 Christ said "I have many more things to tell you BUT YOU can not bear them now" -- even the disciples did not have infinite understanding of all truth -- EVEN THEY were still asking the question AFTER the resurrection "Is this when you will set up your kingdom?".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[trustitl]

Rom. 11:20-21 "Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee."

You cannot proof text. Paul is referring to the Nation of Israel, not saved believers.

And who is "thou"?

Rom 8:38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers,
Rom 8:39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Are you "in Creation"?

Yes, I am in creation, but I didn't see "unbelief" in the list. And you accuse ME of proof texting?

1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they all are not of us.

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I'm not sure why you are pointing these verses out. All they are saying is that these people were never saved.

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Havensdad

Rom. 11:20-21 "Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee."

You cannot proof text. Paul is referring to the Nation of Israel, not saved believers.

And who is "thou"?

Maybe we could imagine TWO nations of unbelieving Jews at that time -

One saved and one lost -

 

[Havensdad]

Originally Posted by Havensdad
1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they all are not of us.

Bro, how could these individuals leaving be demonstrative that they were "not one of us", if Christians can lose their salvation? Why did he not say "They lost their salvation"? Instead, the wording points to the fact that by them leaving, they showed that they were never really one of them.



Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Jesus is speaking to professing Christians, that are even performing miracles, and saying he never knew them. This certainly indicates that those who turn away are among those who were "never known" in the first place.



You brought this verse up, but it is devastating to your case. Let me break it down:

1Co 15:1 Now I make known unto you brethren, the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye received,(past)

wherein also ye stand,(present)

1Co 15:2 by which also ye are saved,(present)

if ye hold fast the word which I preached unto you, except ye believed in vain.(future)


Notice that, you are presently saved, IF you hold fast to the end. So if you DO NOT (in the future) hold fast, you are NOT (presently) saved.

In other words, if your saved you WILL persevere, not if your saved you MUST persevere. The sentence construction does not allow any other interpretaton.

 

[BobRyan]

IF you are not IN Christ you CAN not be "severed from Christ" yet Gal 5 warns that you CAN and so clearly those IN Christ (Saved) can become lost.

IF you are not UNDER grace - saved by grace through faith -- then you can not be "FALLEN from Grace" for you have "nothing to fall from". Yet Gal 5 warns against this VERY thing that many are so anxious to deny as even being possible so clearly those UNDER Grace (saved) can become lost.

If you are not IN the body of Christ and JOINED to Christ you can not be "CUT OFF from the Vine of Christ" -- yet in John 15 Christ said "every branch IN ME" that does not bear fruit is pruned and if it still does not produce the fruits of the Spirit then it is CUT off and is BURNED after it dies of its own self - being detached at that point from the vine. And so the very thing that some claim is NOT even possible is the very thing that Christ warns AGAINST. So clearly those "IN ME" can be "CUT OFF" from Christ and burned in the fire - dead branches. In that case a living CONNECTED branch is then disconnected, withers, dies and is burned. The by their free-will-choice have gone from saved in that case to "lost".

If you have not BEEN fully forgiven of all your sins - then you can not be in the "forgivenss REVOKED" position of Matt 18 since you have NO forgiveness to have REVOKED. And if you have not BEEN fully forgiven then you have no basis to "Forgive others JUST as you HAVE been forgiven" -- in Matt 18 Christ warns against this very danger saying "SO Shally My Father do to EACH one of YOU IF you do not forgive your brother from year heart". For the saved FORGIVEN servant of Christ to later find themselves UNFORGIVEN because of the same forgiveness Revoked scenario of Matt 18 they will must admit that they have gone from being saved - to lost.

All these "should not exist in scripture" examples are followed by a myriad more on the same line -- scripture that must be fully ignored or bent IF one is to "cling to OSAS anyway".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

1Cor 15:1-2
1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Rom 11:22
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness,
if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Col 1:21-23
22 He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death in order to PRESENT you before Him Holy and Blameless and beyond reproach
23 IF INDEED you CONTINUE in the faith FIRMLY established and STEADFAST and NOT MOVED AWAY from the HOPE of the Gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven and of which I Paul was made a minister.

Now, the promise given to Christians as seen above appears to require perseverance to finally reach that end goal of glorification.

 

[charles_creech78]

No you can't lose your salvation ......

 

[BobRyan]

I am just going to have to go with scripture on this one.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: Romans 10 asks the question of the Jews of the OT regarding the Gospel "Surely they have never heard have they?" and the answer is "INDEED THEY HAVE" with the solution in Romans 10 being that "Nature itself" is the one that testifies to God - thoroughout all the earth.

HP: Can you establish by the text itself, apart from your presuppositions, that it is the ‘gospel’ that is being addressed and not simply knowledge of right and wrong and the existence of God?

 

[BobRyan]

HP: Can you establish by the text itself, apart from your presuppositions, that it is the ‘gospel’ that is being addressed and not simply knowledge of right and wrong and the existence of God?

1. Note the words "saved" and "salvation" -- as connected to "the ONE and ONLY Gospel" known to Paul.
2. Notice the connection between "hearing" and "believing" -- as well as "believing and salvation" IN the text.

Or just look at what is highlighted and underlined.

Rom 10
8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, [b]you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. [/b]
11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED[/b]."
14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!"


16 However, they did not all heed the good news[/b]; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"
17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;
"THEIR [b]VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH,
AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD."

 

[charles_creech78]

You can hear the gospil all the days of your life and still die and go to hell. Lest ye should repent ye shall all like wise perish. If you die in your sin where God and Christ is ye cannot come.

 

[BobRyan]

It is easy to find the texts regarding those who are not saved "staying lost" - because they refuse to COME TO the light ( we see this in john 1).

But never are the lost WARNED against "falling away" from their lost position.

Failure to "persevere in being lost" would actually be a GOOD thing!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[charles_creech78]

BobRyan what makes you think we can lose our salvation. You are preaching works when you say that we have to do all of that. For it is by faith through grace are we saved and NOT OF WORK. For we are not under the law. For we are under Grace. Are you tring to justifie your self by the good you do. For all have sin and come short of the glory of God. To me you are saying you are going to heaven because you are being good. The stuff he is speaking are to them that are under the law. Who is under the law?Ro 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the LAW saith, it saith to them who are under the LAW: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Ro 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Ro 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Ro 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Ro 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Ro 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the LAW
Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the LAW through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the LAW.
Ro 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. Ro 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Ro 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Ro 10:4 For Christ is the end of the LAW for righteousness to every one that believeth. 1ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

1ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; There is nothing at the end of this scripture talking about a Christain or believers of Christ.