Can we lose our salvation and eternal life?

[3rdAngel]

How do you reconcile "grace" being "not of works" and the work of following God's word as a prior condition in order to be saved? Please give the question some thought before giving an answer.

I do not need to reconcile as it is in agreement with the OP. We are saved by Grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast. *EPHESIANS 2:8-9. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD by faith that works by LOVE. Salvation is from sin (breaking any one of God’s 10 Commandments) not to continue in sin *ROMANS 6:1-23; JOHN 8:31-36. Those who continue in known unrepentant sin do not know God and need to be Born again into the NEW COVENANT promise to love *HEBREWS 8:10-12; ROMANS 13:8-10. This is God's work in us and a part of the NEW COVENANT promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12; PHILIPPIANS 2:13. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50.

Look at that text carfully. Where does it say the ones who were, ". . . enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, . . ." understood the grace of the gospel and where saved? In Matthew 7:22 are such who had made claims, who were never saved, trusting in that they had done works. Matthew 7:15-20. Look at the work of the Holy Spirit, 1 Thessalonians 2:13; John 16:8-11. And note Hebrews 6:9-10, ". . . But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. . . ." Ephesians 2:10, teaches good works are the result of actually being saved, being saved not in any way by one's works, v.9. The lost fail to understand the role of God's grace alone in salvation (Romans 11:6; Titus 3:5; 2 Corinthians 4:3-4).

This was already addressed in an earlier post to someone else which examined the scriptures verse by verse and showing that HEBREWS 6:4-8 and elsewhere are in reference and a warning to BELIEVERS that those who were once believers can depart from the faith. There are also examples of this all through the OLD and NEW Testament scriptures..

HEBREWS 6:4-8 [4], For it is impossible for those (1) WHO WERE ONCE ENLIGHTENED, and (2) HAVE TASTED THE HEAVENLY GIFT, and (3) WERE MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, [5], And have (4) TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD, and (5) THE POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME,

Who are we talking about here; BELIEVERS of UNBELIEVERS? Were these BELIEVERS Born again christians

The application here is to those who were once BELIEVERS but have fallen away from the faith...

1. Having been enlightened v4;
2. Having tasted of the Heavenly gift v4;
3. Having been made partakers of the Holy Ghost v5;
4. Having tasted of the good Word of God v4;
5. Having tasted of the power of the world to come v5

[6], IF THEY (believers) SHALL FALL AWAY, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh and put him to an open shame.

Yep, BELIEVERS having fallen away from the HEAVENLY gift back into sin..

[7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God:
[8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; WHOS END IS TO BE BURNED.

Yep thier end is to be burned does not sound like they will be going into God's Kingdom not having any REPENTANCE for sin (v6).

elsewhere same theme...

HEBREWS 10:26-27 [26], FOR IF WE (believers) SIN WILLFULLY AFTER THAT WE RECEIVE A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS, [27], But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Yep seems like those who CONTINUE in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN are God's Adversaries who will receive the judgments of God. Do you think these people will enter into God's Kingdom?

Hope this helps.

 

[3rdAngel]

3rdAngel said: ↑ Eternal life is eternal for those who believe and follow God's Word not for those who once believed and followed God's Word yesterday and have fallen away back to a life of known unrepentant sin not believing and following God's Word today.

Your response...

No such expample is found in Holy Scripture. That is reading into the texts what is not there.

No, that is not true at all. There are examples of those who believed and followed God's Word all through the OLD and NEW Testament scriptures. Please read all of HEBREWS 11. JESUS is our example and we should believe and follow him *1 PETER 2:21; JAMES 2:18-20; 26

It is God's Word not mine...

JOHN 10:1-10 [1], Truly, truly, I say to you, He that enters not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. [2], But he that enters in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. [3], To him the porter opens; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calls his own sheep by name, and leads them out. [4], And when he puts forth his own sheep, he goes before them, and THE SHEEP FOLLOW HIM: FOR THEY HEAR HIS VOICE (the Word). [5], And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. [6], This parable spoke Jesus to them: but they understood not what things they were which he spoke to them. [7], Then said Jesus to them again, Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. [8], All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. [9], I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. [10], The thief comes not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more

JOHN 10:26-27 [25], Jesus answered them, I told you, and you believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. [26], But you believe not, because you are not of my sheep, as I said to you. [27], MY SHEEP HEAR MY VOICE AND I KNOW THEM AND THEY FOLLOW ME.

JOHN 3:16-21 [16], For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHSOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIVE. [17], For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. [18], HE THAT BELIEVES ON HIM IS NOT CONDEMNED: BUT HE THAT BELIEVES NOT IS CONDEMNED ALREADY BECAUSE HE HAS NOT BELIEVED IN THE NAME OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD. [19], And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. [20], For every one that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. [21], BUT HE THAT DOES TRUTH COMES TO THE LIGHT THAT HIS DEEDS MAY BE MANIFEST THAT THEY ARE WORKED IN GOD.

MATTHEW 7:21 Not every one that said to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; BUT HE THAT DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN.

1 JOHN 2:17 And the world passes away, and the lust thereof: BUT HE THAT DOES THE WILL OF GOD STAYS FOREVER.

ROMANS 2:5-13 [5], But after your hardness and impenitent heart treasure up to yourself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; [6], WHO WILL RENDER EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: [7], TO THEM WHO BY PATIENT CONTINUANCE IN WELL DOING SEEK FOR GLORY AND HONOR AND IMMORTALITY AND ETERNAL LIFE; [8], BUT TO THEM THAT ARE CONTENTIOUS AND DO NOT OBEY THE TRUTH, INDIGNATION AND WRATH, [9], TRIBULATION AND ANGUISH ON EVERY SOUL OF MAN that DOES EVIL, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; [10], BUT GLORY, HONOR AND PEACE TO EVERY MAN THAT WORKS GOOD, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: [11], For there is no respect of persons with God. [12], FOR AS MANY AS HAVE SINNED WITHOUT THE LAW SHALL PERISH WITHOUT THE LAW AND AS MANY AS HAVE SINNED IN THE LAW SHALL BE JUDGET BY THE LAW: [13], FOR NOT THE HEARERS OF THE LAS ARE JUST BEFORE GOD GBUT THE DOERS OF THE LAW SHALL BE JUSTIFIED.

Too many more scriptues we will stop here..

God bless

 

[3rdAngel]

3rdAngel, you mentioned Hebrews 6 several times in your posts. Do you believe Hebrews 6 when it says if a person falls away after being partakers with Holy Spirit it would be impossible to renew them to repentance?

So, if you believe a person can lose their salvation you must also believe, according to Hebrews 6, they can never get it back. You get one shot at salvation. Once lost (again) always lost?

I have never yet met someone who believed a person can lose salvation explain Hebrews 6 in any way that makes sense to the context. They always say a person can lose and regain their salvation any number of times during their lives, even though Hebrews 6 says it is impossible to renew them to repentance.

Will you be the first I've seen to say if you lose salvation you can never get it back?

Peace to you

Hello canadyid. The scriptures say..

HEBREWS 6:4-8 [4], FOR IT IS IMPOSSIBLE for those (1) WHO WERE ONCE ENLIGHTENED, and (2) HAVE TASTED THE HEAVENLY GIFT, and (3) WERE MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, [5], And have (4) TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD, and (5) THE POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME, [6], IF THEY (believers) SHALL FALL AWAY, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh and put him to an open shame. [7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God: [8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; WHOS END IS TO BE BURNED.

These scriptures are in reference to those who were once BELIEVERS that have FALLEN AWAY from believing and following God's Word. Note here "IF THEY", the CONTEXT being v4-5 is that of those who were once BELIEVERS present CONTEXT v6 "IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY" that is leave the faith "TO RENEW THEMSELVES TO REPENTANCE"

They cannot renew themselves to repentance because they turned away from the truth of God's Word having once understood God's plan of salvation. This is not talking about someone that was struggling with sin but someone that has left the faith.

Note: "IT IS IMPOSSIBLE" (v4) "IF THEY FALL AWAY" (leave the faith v6); "TO RENEW THEM AGAIN TO REPENTANCE" (v6). It is impossible since they have FALLEN away and departed the faith when it is the very faith they have departed from that is the only way they can be made right with God. The scriptures are saying since they deny the faith they have no other means of salvation. It is not saying God cannot save them. They cannot save themselves or can anyone else for that matter but what is impossible for men; all things are possible with God * MATTHEW 19:26.

These same thoughts are further expressed in...

HEBREWS 10:26-31 [26], FOR IF WE SIN WILLFULLY AFTER THAT WE HAVE RECEIVED THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS, [27], But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. [28], He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: [29], OF HOW MUCH SORER PUNISHMENT SUPPOSE YOU SHALL HE BE THOUGHT WORTHY WHO HAS TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD AND HAS COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT AN UNHOLY THING AND HAS DONE DESPITE TO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE? [30], For we know him that has said, Vengeance belongs to me, I will recompense, said the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. [31], It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

I am not much for commentaries but there is some further commentary thoughts here if you are interested

Hope this helps.

God bless.

 

[3rdAngel]

Hello MB, nice to see you again. I am not sure what your post has to do with anything in this thread or what I have posted here or elsewhere but I have provided some comments for your consideration below.

3rdAngel said: ↑ It is true that none of us did anything to earn our salvation. It is not true that we cannot do anything to lose salvation as salvation is condtional on believing and following God's Word. Many think they have salvation only to find out that they did not *MATTHEW 7:22-23. God's Word says that those who once believed and followed God's Word yesterday and have fallen away back to a life of known unrepentant sin not believing and following God's Word today do not have salvation and lose it because they no longer believe and follow God's Word *HEBREWS 6:4-8; HEBREWS 10:26-27.

Your response...

The Bible says; Rom 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. You see if we are not under the Law then to those who have faith in Jesus Christ are not living by the law, we live by faith. No where in scripture are we told to follow the scriptures to be saved. but instead follow Christ. The Law never saved anyone. The reason is that if we are saved then we love our neighbors and there by we fulfil the Law.

None of us are "UNDER THE LAW" if we have through faith repented and confessed our sins and believe God's Word *ROMANS 8:1-4; 1 JOHN 1:9; ACTS 2:38. We are only "UNDER THE LAW" if we stand before God guilty of breaking it *ROMANS 3:19-20. We are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *EPHESIANS 2:8-9. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD by faith that works by LOVE. Salvation is from sin (breaking any one of God’s 10 Commandments) not to continue in sin *ROMANS 6:1-23; JOHN 8:31-36. Those who continue in known unrepentant sin do not know God and need to be Born again into the NEW COVENANT promise to love *HEBREWS 8:10-12; ROMANS 13:8-10. This is God's work in us and a part of the NEW COVENANT promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12; PHILIPPIANS 2:13. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50.

Keeping the Law make faith void John wrote; 1Jn_3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. Now you come along and tell us we do sin when the Bible says in this verse above; those born of God cannot sin. Are you claiming the Bible is wrong. No one is able to perfectly follow God's word to the letter because man is no where near to being perfect.

I have never said any such thing. I have only said we are all sinners in need of a Saviour and without Christ we can do nothing. The GOOD NEWS of the Gospel of JESUS Christ is that we have a Saviour that saves us from sin, not to continue in sin *JOHN 8:31-36. All those who continue in known unrepentant sin need to be born again to walk in the Spirit or they will not enter into the kingdom of Heaven *JOHN 3:3-8; GALATIANS 5:16. Sin (breaking God's LAW) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 JOHN 3:6-10. Those who continue in known unrepentant sin will not enter into the kingdom of heaven because they reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23; ROMANS 8:13; HEBREWS 10:26-31; HEBREWS 6:4-8.

It seems you are confused as to what is being shared here.

Hope this helps your misunderstanding.

 

[BaptistDave1]

Eternal life is eternal for those who believe and follow God's Word not for those who once believed and followed God's Word yesterday and have fallen away back to a life of known unrepentant sin not believing and following God's Word today. God's Word says that salvation is conditional on believing and following God's Word (present tense) *HEBREWS 6:4-8; HEBREWS 10:26-27; JOHN 3:15-21.

So, if you sin one time and you die before you get the chance to repent of it, do you lose your salvation and go to Hell?

How many sins can you commit before you lose salvation?

 

[3rdAngel]

So, if you sin one time and you die before you get the chance to repent of it, do you lose your salvation and go to Hell?

How many sins can you commit before you lose salvation?

Hi Dave nice to meet you. Where did I ever write such things? I suggest you re-read the post you are responding to brother and read 1 JOHN 1:9; 1 JOHN 2:1-4. The post you are quoting from is in reference to known unrepentant sin

God bless

 

[canadyjd]

Hello canadyid. The scriptures say..

HEBREWS 6:4-8 [4], FOR IT IS IMPOSSIBLE for those (1) WHO WERE ONCE ENLIGHTENED, and (2) HAVE TASTED THE HEAVENLY GIFT, and (3) WERE MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, [5], And have (4) TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD, and (5) THE POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME, [6], IF THEY (believers) SHALL FALL AWAY, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh and put him to an open shame. [7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God: [8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; WHOS END IS TO BE BURNED.

These scriptures are in reference to those who were once BELIEVERS that have FALLEN AWAY from believing and following God's Word. Note here "IF THEY", the CONTEXT being v4-5 is that of those who were once BELIEVERS present CONTEXT v6 "IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY" that is leave the faith "TO RENEW THEMSELVES TO REPENTANCE"

They cannot renew themselves to repentance because they turned away from the truth of God's Word having once understood God's plan of salvation. This is not talking about someone that was struggling with sin but someone that has left the faith.

Note: "IT IS IMPOSSIBLE" (v4) "IF THEY FALL AWAY" (leave the faith v6); "TO RENEW THEM AGAIN TO REPENTANCE" (v6). It is impossible since they have FALLEN away and departed the faith when it is the very faith they have departed from that is the only way they can be made right with God. The scriptures are saying since they deny the faith they have no other means of salvation. It is not saying God cannot save them. They cannot save themselves or can anyone else for that matter but what is impossible for men; all things are possible with God * MATTHEW 19:26.

These same thoughts are further expressed in...

HEBREWS 10:26-31 [26], FOR IF WE SIN WILLFULLY AFTER THAT WE HAVE RECEIVED THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS, [27], But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. [28], He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: [29], OF HOW MUCH SORER PUNISHMENT SUPPOSE YOU SHALL HE BE THOUGHT WORTHY WHO HAS TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD AND HAS COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT AN UNHOLY THING AND HAS DONE DESPITE TO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE? [30], For we know him that has said, Vengeance belongs to me, I will recompense, said the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. [31], It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

I am not much for commentaries but there is some further commentary thoughts here if you are interested

Hope this helps.

God bless.

If you believe the believers of Hebrews 6 lost their salvation, then the passage is clear that it is impossible to renew them to salvation and Scripture then states the reason it is impossible to renew them to salvation. It isn't because they are denying their only means of salvation, as you stated. Scripture says they would have to crucify Christ all over again.

So, if you believe they can lose salvation and then regain it, you must agree with Hebrews 6 that they must have found a way to crucify Christ again. That is why it is impossible.

As I stated earlier, I have yet to find someone who believed a person can lose salvation and then regain it deal with Hebrews 6 in a way that is faithful to the context.

Peace to you

 

[BaptistDave1]

Hi Dave nice to meet you. Where did I ever write such things? I suggest you re-read the post you are responding to brother and read 1 JOHN 1:9; 1 JOHN 2:1-4. The post you are quoting from is in reference to known unrepentant sin

God bless

What is the threshold for losing salvation? If you sin one time and die before you repent, are you saved?

Also, none of those verses say that you will go to hell if you die with any known unrepentant sin. I also find it interesting that it has to be a sin you know you committed. You seem to be adding qualifiers. It has to be a known sin that you have no consciously repented of. I don't see those qualifiers at all in the verses you provided.

It seems you are adding all kinds of conditions on to salvation so much so, that you actually do more to keep yourself saved, than God does. So, why should God get the credit for your salvation, if it is YOU that is keeping yourself saved?

 

[MB]

Hello MB, nice to see you again. I am not sure what your post has to do with anything in this thread or what I have posted here or elsewhere but I have provided some comments for your consideration below.

Your response...

None of us are "UNDER THE LAW" if we have through faith repented and confessed our sins and believe God's Word *ROMANS 8:1-4; 1 JOHN 1:9; ACTS 2:38. We are only "UNDER THE LAW" if we stand before God guilty of breaking it *ROMANS 3:19-20. We are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *EPHESIANS 2:8-9. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD by faith that works by LOVE. Salvation is from sin (breaking any one of God’s 10 Commandments) not to continue in sin *ROMANS 6:1-23; JOHN 8:31-36. Those who continue in known unrepentant sin do not know God and need to be Born again into the NEW COVENANT promise to love *HEBREWS 8:10-12; ROMANS 13:8-10. This is God's work in us and a part of the NEW COVENANT promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12; PHILIPPIANS 2:13. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50.

I have never said any such thing. I have only said we are all sinners in need of a Saviour and without Christ we can do nothing. The GOOD NEWS of the Gospel of JESUS Christ is that we have a Saviour that saves us from sin, not to continue in sin *JOHN 8:31-36. All those who continue in known unrepentant sin need to be born again to walk in the Spirit or they will not enter into the kingdom of Heaven *JOHN 3:3-8; GALATIANS 5:16. Sin (breaking God's LAW) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 JOHN 3:6-10. Those who continue in known unrepentant sin will not enter into the kingdom of heaven because they reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23; ROMANS 8:13; HEBREWS 10:26-31; HEBREWS 6:4-8.

It seems you are confused as to what is being shared here.

Hope this helps your misunderstanding.

It isn't my misunderstanding it's you dodging the truth. Show me where scripture says we can loose our Salvation? none of what you have placed on the board supports your position at all.
MB

 

[Dave G]

This verse;
Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Is not speaking about hell fire but have all the works we have done because of Love are burned up so that your soul maybe saved.

"For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 but that which beareth thorns and briers [is] rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end [is] to be burned." ( Hebrews 6:4-8 ).

The last two "verses" of the passage are indirectly comparing God's children and the children of the devil, with the earth and the fruits of it.

It's a "simile"...
The earth that drinks in rain that comes upon it often, and brings forth herbs ( plantlife ) that are suitable for the growers, receives blessing from God.
That which bears thorns and briers is rejected and near to cursing, whose end is to be burned.

The Lord uses references like these to describe how He cultivates His children with care, and waits patiently for them to grow to maturity...
While He will cast into the "oven" those that are not His.
See James 5:7, Matthew 9:37-38, Matthew 13, Matthew 25:31-45, John 4:35, Revelation 14:14-20.

This passage in Hebrews used to always confuse me a bit, until my eyes fell on this:

" But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
10 For God [is] not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
12 that ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises." ( Hebrews 6:9-12 ).

Carefully established context is the most important lesson I ever learned about God's word.

More than anything, in order to understand Hebrews 6 properly, one must keep in mind two things:

1) It is written to Hebrew believers, who had a national history of having had God manifested to them, and then backsliding into disobedience time and time again.
2) The passages in John and many other places are Christ's promises to His sheep.
They have everlasting life ( John 3:16, John 3:36 ), they have passed from death unto life ( John 5:24 ), Christ shall never lose any of the ones His Father gave to Him ( John 6:39 ), no man ( including one's self ) can ever pluck them out of God the Father's hand ( John 10:28-29 ), they are more than conquerors through Him that loved them ( Romans 8:31-39 ), they are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation, ready to be revealed in the last time ( 1 Peter 1:5 ) and they are saved by grace, not works ( Ephesians 2:8-10 ).

Moreover, they were chosen to salvation ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ), and their place is reserved in Heaven ( 1 Peter 1:4 ).

Again, salvation can never be lost, because that would require undoing quite a few things that only God can do.
One is the sealing of the Holy Spirit ( Ephesians 1:13 ), another is His great love for His children and His Son's work on the cross for them ( Ephesians 2:1-10 )

But to me, one thing is clear...

1 Peter 1:5 and Colossians 2:13-14 all by themselves and properly understood in the light of other Scriptures, should cause anyone who is paying attention to reject the false doctrine of loss of salvation.
God's gift of eternal life is a gift, freely given by God to His elect, and freely received by them outside of any effort or work of righteousness of their own ( Titus 3:5-6 ).


Fini.

 

[1689Dave]

All of them because they all show salvation and God's promises are conditional on believing and following God's Word. However we can start with HEBREWS 6:4-8 if you like?

“No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 (NASB95)

 

[3rdAngel]

If you believe the believers of Hebrews 6 lost their salvation, then the passage is clear that it is impossible to renew them to salvation and Scripture then states the reason it is impossible to renew them to salvation. It isn't because they are denying their only means of salvation, as you stated. Scripture says they would have to crucify Christ all over again.

So, if you believe they can lose salvation and then regain it, you must agree with Hebrews 6 that they must have found a way to crucify Christ again. That is why it is impossible.

As I stated earlier, I have yet to find someone who believed a person can lose salvation and then regain it deal with Hebrews 6 in a way that is faithful to the context.

Peace to you

Not at all. Did you read post # 23 linked? It seems you did not. If you did what do you think the post and the the scriptures supplied mean? HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-31 which follows the same theme are God's Word not mine that show those who were once believers can depart the faith and return back to a life of known unrepentant sin and without God's help they will be lost as there is no other means whereby they can be saved. All through the OLD and NEW Testament scripture and in the OP provided here Gods Word teaches salvation is conditional on believing and following Gods Word in the present tense (the now). Many will come ot him on that day thinking they had salvation only to find out when it is too late that they were lost and never knew him *MATTHEW 7:22-23. You are free to believe as you wish but God's Word does not agree with you.

 

[3rdAngel]

What is the threshold for losing salvation? If you sin one time and die before you repent, are you saved?

Also, none of those verses say that you will go to hell if you die with any known unrepentant sin. I also find it interesting that it has to be a sin you know you committed. You seem to be adding qualifiers. It has to be a known sin that you have no consciously repented of. I don't see those qualifiers at all in the verses you provided.

It seems you are adding all kinds of conditions on to salvation so much so, that you actually do more to keep yourself saved, than God does. So, why should God get the credit for your salvation, if it is YOU that is keeping yourself saved?

Hi Dave, the threashold of losing salvation according to the scriptures is a hardened heart that no longer wants to believe and follow God's Word that continues in known unreoentant sin *HEBREWS 6:4-8; HEBREWS 10:26-27; JOHN 3:15-21. Please do not make up things no one is saying. We are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *EPHESIANS 2:8-9. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD by faith that works by LOVE. Salvation is from sin (breaking any one of God’s 10 Commandments) not to continue in sin *ROMANS 6:1-23; JOHN 8:31-36. Those who continue in known unrepentant sin do not know God and need to be Born again into the NEW COVENANT promise to love *HEBREWS 8:10-12; ROMANS 13:8-10. This is God's work in us and a part of the NEW COVENANT promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12; PHILIPPIANS 2:13. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50.The GOOD NEWS of the Gospel of JESUS Christ is that we have a Saviour that saves us from sin, not to continue in sin *JOHN 8:31-36. All those who continue in known unrepentant sin need to be born again to walk in the Spirit or they will not enter into the kingdom of Heaven *JOHN 3:3-8; GALATIANS 5:16. Sin (breaking God's LAW) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 JOHN 3:6-10. Those who continue in known unrepentant sin will not enter into the kingdom of heaven because they reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23; ROMANS 8:13; HEBREWS 10:26-31; HEBREWS 6:4-8.

 

[3rdAngel]

It isn't my misunderstanding it's you dodging the truth. Show me where scripture says we can loose our Salvation? none of what you have placed on the board supports your position at all. MB

Not really, but let's bring everything you are claiming here to the light of the scriptures. Please what truth is it that you claim I am dodging? You have to demy a lot of scripture to think that the scriptures provided in the OP do not show that salvation is conditional on believing and following God's Word.

Now MB, post # 1 linked here and post # 2 linked here show from the OLD and NEW Testament scriptures that both salvation and God's promises are conditional on believeing and following God's Word. I will also add post # 9 linked here.

Now in response all you have stated is your own words which are not God's Word claiming...

1. I am dodging truth and
2. nothing in the OP shows that salvation and God's Word is conditional on believing and following God's Word.

Now you have been provided God's Word which is not my words but God's. You in response provide your own words to argue against God's Word which are your words.

If you claim that what you are saying is true then prove it through the scriptures. If you cannot why do you not believe God's Word?

Something to think about. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it. Ignoring God's Word does not make it dissappear. This is only posted in love and as a help

Besides the OP this was posted just recently...

HEBREWS 6:4-8 [4], FOR IT IS IMPOSSIBLE for those (1) WHO WERE ONCE ENLIGHTENED, and (2) HAVE TASTED THE HEAVENLY GIFT, and (3) WERE MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, [5], And have (4) TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD, and (5) THE POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME, [6], IF THEY (believers) SHALL FALL AWAY, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh and put him to an open shame. [7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God: [8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; WHOS END IS TO BE BURNED.

These scriptures are in reference to those who were once BELIEVERS that have FALLEN AWAY from believing and following God's Word. Note here "IF THEY", the CONTEXT being v4-5 is that of those who were once BELIEVERS present CONTEXT v6 "IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY" that is leave the faith "TO RENEW THEMSELVES TO REPENTANCE"

They cannot renew themselves to repentance because they turned away from the truth of God's Word having once understood God's plan of salvation. This is not talking about someone that was struggling with sin but someone that has left the faith.

Note: "IT IS IMPOSSIBLE" (v4) "IF THEY FALL AWAY" (leave the faith v6); "TO RENEW THEM AGAIN TO REPENTANCE" (v6). It is impossible since they have FALLEN away and departed the faith when it is the very faith they have departed from that is the only way they can be made right with God. The scriptures are saying since they deny the faith they have no other means of salvation. It is not saying God cannot save them. They cannot save themselves or can anyone else for that matter but what is impossible for men; all things are possible with God * MATTHEW 19:26.

These same thoughts are further expressed in...

HEBREWS 10:26-31 [26], FOR IF WE SIN WILLFULLY AFTER THAT WE HAVE RECEIVED THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS, [27], But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. [28], He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: [29], OF HOW MUCH SORER PUNISHMENT SUPPOSE YOU SHALL HE BE THOUGHT WORTHY WHO HAS TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD AND HAS COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT AN UNHOLY THING AND HAS DONE DESPITE TO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE? [30], For we know him that has said, Vengeance belongs to me, I will recompense, said the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. [31], It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

More Commentary thoughts here

Hope this helps.

 

[canadyjd]

Not at all. Did you read post # 23 linked? It seems you did not. If you did what do you think the post and the the scriptures supplied mean? HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-31 which follows the same theme are God's Word not mine that show those who were once believers can depart the faith and return back to a life of known unrepentant sin and without God's help they will be lost as there is no other means whereby they can be saved. All through the OLD and NEW Testament scripture and in the OP provided here Gods Word teaches salvation is conditional on believing and following Gods Word in the present tense (the now). Many will come ot him on that day thinking they had salvation only to find out when it is too late that they were lost and never knew him *MATTHEW 7:22-23. You are free to believe as you wish but God's Word does not agree with you.

You are misquoting the passage. It does not say "impossible without God's help", it says "impossible....because they would have to crucify Christ all over again."

Thanks for the coversation.

Peace to you

 

[1689Dave]

All of them because they all show salvation and God's promises are conditional on believing and following God's Word. However we can start with HEBREWS 6:4-8 if you like?

Hebrews 6 cannot be understood apart from Limited Atonement.

That is, Christ died only for the elect and these will not fall away.

“No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 (NASB95)

But others who fall away, were not the elect. So God would need to elect them for salvation, Christ would need to return to the cross to redeem them, before they could repent and experience salvation. Which is impossible according to the passage.

 

[3rdAngel]

You are misquoting the passage. It does not say "impossible without God's help", it says "impossible....because they would have to crucify Christ all over again."

Thanks for the coversation.

Peace to you

Not at all. We have examined the passage of HEBREWS 6:4-8 scripture by scripture. You are the one misquoting the passage as has already been shown scripture by scripture. HEBREWS 6:4-8 as well as HEBREWS 10:26-31 are in reference and warnings to BELIEVERS not to depart from BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's Word which agrees with the many scriptures provided from the first two posts in the OP showing the salvation is conditional on believing and following God's Word. You have not been able to disprove this and ignoring God's Word does not make it dissappear.

 

[3rdAngel]

Hebrews 6 cannot be understood apart from Limited Atonement.
That is, Christ died only for the elect and these will not fall away. “No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 (NASB95)
But others who fall away, were not the elect. So God would need to elect them for salvation, Christ would need to return to the cross to redeem them, before they could repent and experience salvation. Which is impossible according to the passage.

That is not true. According to the scriptures in HEBREWS 6:4-8 we are talking about those who were once BELIEVERS and had departed from the faith back to a life of sin. These scriptures agree and support the OP that show that salvation and God's promises are conditional on believing and following God's Word.

You really dont see that these scriptures are talking about believers when it is God's Word not mine that says they were...

Posted elsewhere

HEBREWS 6:4-8 [4], For it is impossible for those (1) WHO WERE ONCE ENLIGHTENED, and (2) HAVE TASTED THE HEAVENLY GIFT, and (3) WERE MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, [5], And have (4) TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD, and (5) THE POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME,

Who are we talking about here; BELIEVERS of UNBELIEVERS? Were these BELIEVERS Born again christians

The application here is to those who were once BELIEVERS but have fallen away from the faith...

1. Having been enlightened v4;
2. Having tasted of the Heavenly gift v4;
3. Having been made partakers of the Holy Ghost v5;
4. Having tasted of the good Word of God v4;
5. Having tasted of the power of the world to come v5

[6], IF THEY (believers) SHALL FALL AWAY, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh and put him to an open shame.

Yep, BELIEVERS having fallen away from the HEAVENLY gift back into sin..

You do not have to believe God's Word if you do not want to, it is up to you.

God's Sheep hear His Voice (the Word)

 

[1689Dave]

That is not true. According to the scriptures in HEBREWS 6:4-8 we are talking about those who were once BELIEVERS and had departed from the faith back to a life of sin. These scriptures agree and support the OP that show that salvation and God's promises are conditional on believing and following God's Word.

You really dont see that these scriptures are talking about believers when it is God's Word not mine that says they were...

Posted elsewhere

HEBREWS 6:4-8 [4], For it is impossible for those (1) WHO WERE ONCE ENLIGHTENED, and (2) HAVE TASTED THE HEAVENLY GIFT, and (3) WERE MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, [5], And have (4) TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD, and (5) THE POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME,

Who are we talking about here; BELIEVERS of UNBELIEVERS? Were these BELIEVERS Born again christians

The application here is to those who were once BELIEVERS but have fallen away from the faith...

1. Having been enlightened v4;
2. Having tasted of the Heavenly gift v4;
3. Having been made partakers of the Holy Ghost v5;
4. Having tasted of the good Word of God v4;
5. Having tasted of the power of the world to come v5

[6], IF THEY (believers) SHALL FALL AWAY, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh and put him to an open shame.

Yep, BELIEVERS having fallen away from the HEAVENLY gift back into sin..

You do not have to believe God's Word if you do not want to, it is up to you.

God's Sheep hear His Voice (the Word)

3/4 of the converts in the parable of the sower fail.Many believed in Jesus based on his miracles. But he did not commit himself to them. Only the born again overcome and enjoy eternal life. God's word is Spirit and many partake of it, but not in the genuine sense of the New Birth. Gandhi partook of it living the Sermon on the Mount as a pagan.

 

[canadyjd]

Not at all. We have examined the passage of HEBREWS 6:4-8 scripture by scripture. You are the one misquoting the passage as has already been shown scripture by scripture. HEBREWS 6:4-8 as well as HEBREWS 10:26-31 are in reference and warnings to BELIEVERS not to depart from BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's Word which agrees with the many scriptures provided from the first two posts in the OP showing the salvation is conditional on believing and following God's Word. You have not been able to disprove this and ignoring God's Word does not make it dissappear.

I am always willing to consider the possibility I have misread a passage. You have not shown me that I have done that.

You have failed to address the very plain language of Hebrews 6. If a believer falls away, it is impossible to renew them to repentance because they would have to crucify Christ all over again.

You have misquoted the passage by claiming it says "impossible without God's help." It doesn't say that. You misquote the passage by claiming it says impossible as long as they deny the faith. It doesn't say that.

The only way you can reconcile Hebrews 6 with your belief a Christian can lose their salvation is to embrace the idea that if you lose your salvation you can never get it back. Otherwise, imo, you are not being intellectually honest with what this passage says.

Thanks for the conversation

Peace to you