Nope you have not convinced me of your false beliefs. Rather I'm sadden for your lack of confidence in God in keeping you from the evil one. You seem to think that God breaks His promises as well.
MB
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Can we lose our salvation and eternal life?
- Thread starter 3rdAngel
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MB
I heard an Old Sovereign Grace Primitive Baptist preacher explain it better than I've ever heard it, how secure each child of God's Salvation is... For Satan to get to one of God's blood bought, grace wrought, token of redeeming grace and love... He would have to overthrow the Godhead!... That's true Salvation and Eternal Security... My advice... Quit listening to Satan!... Brother Glen
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BaptistDave1
Member
That doesn't answer my question. My question concerns whether or not a Christian is unsaved the minute he commits a sin or not.
Hebrew 6:4-8 isn't about salvation. If you look at the context which starts in 5:12, you will find that the complaint isn't about apostasy, but about lack of spiritual maturity.
Hebrew 10:26-27 is about those who have heard and know the truth and even acknowledge the truth, but choose to remain under the Old Testament Economy. They are Jews who knowingly sin against the truth by continuing with animal sacrifices even though they know the truth about Jesus' sacrifices.
John 3:15-21 also does not address this matter. There are no biblical examples of a genuinely saved believer apostatizing. That is the problem in your remarks. You seem to be adding qualifiers. Christians do sin and they sin more than they like to admit. Is a Christian unsaved the minute he sins?
I am not making up anything about what you are saying. I am asking you how many sins can you commit before you lose salvation?
I agree that obedience to God is the fruit of salvation. But what I also see in Scripture is that a genuinely saved person has a heart to serve the Lord and will not forsake the Lord. I guess where I am confused is how you are defining what it means to "continue" in sin." Are you talking about habitual sin as a lifestyle? Can you clarify that?
My question is whether or not a genuinely saved person continues in sin or not. Many of the passages you provide don't really speak to the issue you are raising. And it seems you are confusing the rejection of Jesus by the unsaved with sins committed by those who have been saved. You seem to be using the same language for both and as I said, it is confusing.
BaptistDave1
Member
But the context is not about salvation and the the term "fall away" in the Greek isn't apostasy. It is a different word that means "fall to the side." It is not about a person forsaking he Lord. The context is about spiritual immaturity and spiritual complacency. If you read the entire context starting 5:12, you will find that the complaint being made is that this Jewish audience were still taking in spiritiual milk when they should be eating spiritual meat. He says that they should be teachers by that point. Nothingn in what he says indicates that this audience was in danger of apostatizing.
Nice of you to assume I'm listening to Satan.I heard an Old Sovereign Grace Primitive Baptist preacher explain it better than I've ever heard it, how secure each child of God's Salvation is... For Satan to get to one of God's blood bought, grace wrought, token of redeeming grace and love... He would have to overthrow the Godhead!... That's true Salvation and Eternal Security... My advice... Quit listening to Satan!... Brother Glen
MB
37818
Well-Known Member
Only in it establishes we do not share the same understand in the use of our language.
If a person ends up in the lake fire, say that they were saved is totally false.
Simply, if a person is saved by God, then it is God who keeps them saved (1 Corinthians 3:15).
A person cannot know they are really saved if a person can perish anyway.
Quite frankly, your view salvation is untenable.
The angels who are fallen have no offer of any kind salvation. What makes you think making it to heaven will keep anyone from a latter Hell? Remember those angels started there.
3rdAngel
Member
The parable of the sower agree with HEBREWS 6:4-8 and also HEBREWS 10:26-27. You will notiice in the group spoken of in MATTHEW 13:20-21 that they rejoiced in receiving the Word of God and ENDURED in the faith for a while then departed the faith and fell away because of persecution and tribulation. Only he that endures temptation to the end believing and following God's Word receive eternal life *JAMES 1:12; MATTHEW 10:22; MATTHEW 24:13.
Hope this helps
3rdAngel
Member
I find that hard to believe. You have been shown scripture by scriputure that HEBREWS 6:4-8 is in reference to BELIEVERS; proof being that this group is referenced in the scriptures as;
1. Having been enlightened in God's Word v4;
2. Having tasted of the Heavenly gift v4;
3. Having been made partakers of the Holy Ghost v5;
4. Having tasted of the good Word of God v4;
5. Having tasted of the power of the world to come v5
"HAVING TASTED" means they experienced all of the above in the "PAST TENSE" of scripture application.
6. HAD FALLEN AWAY from the faith v6
7. Returned to a life of known unrepentant sin v6
8. Those who continue down this path lose their salvation v8
Now every point shown above is God's Word not mine. You have to deny a lot of scripture and deny God's Word not to believe the above. These are God's Words not mine and your denying them with your own words.
All the above supports the OP and shows that salvation is CONDITIONAL on BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's Word. Those who do not believe and follow God's Word do not have salvation. This is the same as all those who once believed and followed God's Word yesterday but have FALLEN away and no longer believes and follows God's Word today who were once believers but have now become unbelievers *HEBREWS 6:4-8. This agrees with HEBREWS 10:26-27 that if WE (believers) SIN willfully after we receive a KNOWLEDGE of the truth there remains no more sacrifice for sins But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. The scriptures in both cases are not talking about occasional sin but of willful known unrepentant sin and turning away from the faith.
This is God's Word not mine and you do not believe it. So your argument is with God not me.
Once again this is not true. These scriptures are in reference to those who were once BELIEVERS that have FALLEN AWAY from believing and following God's Word. Note here "IF THEY", the CONTEXT being v4-5 is that of those who were once BELIEVERS present CONTEXT v6 "IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY" that is leave the faith "TO RENEW THEMSELVES TO REPENTANCE"
They cannot renew themselves to repentance because they turned away from the truth of God's Word having once understood God's plan of salvation. This is not talking about someone that was struggling with occasional sin but someone that has left the faith and therefore have no other means of salvation.
Note: "IT IS IMPOSSIBLE" (v4) "IF THEY FALL AWAY" (leave the faith v6); "TO RENEW THEM AGAIN TO REPENTANCE" (v6). It is impossible since they have FALLEN away and departed the faith when it is the very faith they have departed from that is the only way they can be made right with God. The scriptures are saying since they deny the faith they have no other means of salvation. It is not saying God cannot save them but it is saying for men this is impossible; but all things are possible with God * MATTHEW 19:26.
As shown through the scriptures earlier; HEBREWS 6:4-8 as well as HEBREWS 10:26-31 are in reference and WARNINGS to BELIEVERS not to depart from BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's Word which agrees with the many scriptures provided from the first two posts in the OP and both the OLD and NEW TESTAMENT scriptures showing that salvation is conditional on believing and following God's Word. You have not been able to disprove this and ignoring God's Word does not make it dissappear.
Hope this help.
3rdAngel
Member
Only God's Word is provided here in this OP. Your post here does not address the post you are responding to. What is it that you claim is not true? You have been provided with God's Word that shows that both our salvation and God's promises are conditional on believing and following God's Word.
In the last post to you I asked you what it is that you disagree with? You keep silence. What makes you think I have no confidence in God keeping me or anyone that believes and follows His Word from the Evil one when I have NEVER said or believe such things? If I have never said or believe such things why are you pretending that I have?
JUDE 1:24-25 [24], Now to him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, [25], To the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
God's promises are conditional on believing and following God's Word
3rdAngel
Member
Falling away is in reference to unrepentant sin and leaving the faith. While repentant sin can be forgiven, unrepentant sin cannot because those doing so reject the gift of God'd dear son *ROMANS 6:23; 1 JOHN 2:1-4; 1 JOHN 1:9; ACTS 2:38; HEBREWS 10:26-27; HEBREWS 6:4-8; 2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-12.
3rdAngel
Member
I heard an Old Sovereign Grace Primitive Baptist preacher explain it better than I've ever heard it, how secure each child of God's Salvation is... For Satan to get to one of God's blood bought, grace wrought, token of redeeming grace and love... He would have to overthrow the Godhead!... That's true Salvation and Eternal Security... My advice... Quit listening to Satan!... Brother Glen
Your better off seeking JESUS through his Word than listening to the teachings and traditions of men that lead others to break the commandments of God. There is no such thing as once saved always saved. True biblical eternal security is conditional on believing and following God's Word to the very end. Those who once believed yesterday and fall away from the faith today and no longer believe and follow God's Word today have become unbelievers. God's Word teaches that both salvation and God's promises are conditional on believing and following God's Word.
3rdAngel
Member
Your response...
Of course it answered your question. Do you know the difference between repentant sin and unrepentant sin? God's Word teaches that sin is the breaking of anyone of God's 10 commandments (1 JOHN 3:4 and that the wages of sin is death to all those who continue in it if they reject the gift of God's dear son * ROMANS 6:23; ROMANS 8:13;
HEBREWS 6:4-8 is a WARNING to BELIEVERS not to FALL AWAY back to a life of known unrepentant sin and depart the faith.
Partly true but also not entirely true. The context preceeding HEBREWS 10:26-27 is also in reference to the OLD and NEW COVENANTS and God's law written on the heart to love in the Spirit. Ther proceeding scriptures show that the OLD COVENANT sacrifices for sins pointed to JESUS as our true sacrifice for sin. It is not teaching that we can continue to sin and think we are saved. It is highlighting the shadow laws from the OLD COVENANT that point to the NEW leadning to the NEW COVENANT promise..
Hebrews 10:14-17, For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, this is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord, I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS, AND INTO THEOR MINDS WILL I WRITE THEM; and their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Once again HEBREWS 10:26-31 is a WARNING to BELIEVERS who willfully SIN against God after receiving a KNOWLEDGE of the truth. The application here is in reference to sin and to Christs sacrifice for sin stating that if we receive a knowledge of the truth and then afterwards turn away from the truth to willfull unrepentant sin there remains no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries because those doing so reject the gift of God's dear son (Christs sacrifice) which is the only means of salvation *ROMANS 6:23.
Actually no! JOHN 3:15-21 does indeed address this OP perfectly. It states that only those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD in the "present tense" have eternal life and those who do not believe do not have life. When connected with HEBREWS 6:4-8 which shows BELIEVERS can fall away and depart the faith to become "UNBELIEVERS", it agrees with the many scriptures provided in the OP and all through GENESIS to REVELATION that both salvation and God's promises are conditional on believing and following God's Word.
You posted in an earlier post things I do not believe or have said in relation to salvation. Your question was answered earlier by providing scripture and said the threashold of losing salvation according to the scriptures is a hardened heart that no longer wants to believe and follow God's Word that continues in known unreoentant sin *HEBREWS 6:4-8; HEBREWS 10:26-27; JOHN 3:15-21. We are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *EPHESIANS 2:8-9. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD by faith that works by LOVE. Salvation is from sin (breaking any one of God’s 10 Commandments) not to continue in sin *ROMANS 6:1-23; JOHN 8:31-36. Those who continue in known unrepentant sin do not know God and need to be Born again into the NEW COVENANT promise to love *HEBREWS 8:10-12; ROMANS 13:8-10. This is God's work in us and a part of the NEW COVENANT promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12; PHILIPPIANS 2:13. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50.The GOOD NEWS of the Gospel of JESUS Christ is that we have a Saviour that saves us from sin, not to continue in sin *JOHN 8:31-36. All those who continue in known unrepentant sin need to be born again to walk in the Spirit or they will not enter into the kingdom of Heaven *JOHN 3:3-8; GALATIANS 5:16. Sin (breaking God's LAW) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 JOHN 3:6-10. Those who continue in known unrepentant sin will not enter into the kingdom of heaven because they reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23; ROMANS 8:13; HEBREWS 10:26-31; HEBREWS 6:4-8.
Yes known unrepentant sin is the type that will keep one out of God's kingdom. God's Word teaches that salvation is from sin not to continue in it *JOHN 8:31-36; ROMANS 3:31; 1 JOHN 3:3-10; 1 JOHN 2:1-4; HEBREWS 10:26-27. This being said we are to grow in God's grace through the knowledge of his Word *2 PETER 3:18 this some call the process of sanctification which is the work of a life time and there is a difference between sin that we know is sin and sin that we may have not have learned is sin *JAMES 4:17; ACT 17:30-31.
All of the scriptures that have been provided show that both salvation and God's promises are conditional on believing and following God's Word. According to the scriptures those who genuinely believing and following God's Word (the saved) do not continue in known unrepentant sin and those who do have not seen him or do they know him *1 JOHN 2:1-4; 1 JOHN 3:6-10.
God bless
3rdAngel
Member
That is not true brother Dave. FALL AWAY as used in HEBREWS 6:6 in the GREEK used from G3895; παραπίπτω; parapiptō From G3844 and G4098; to fall aside, that is, (figuratively) APOSTATIZE : - fall away. The scriptures word for word in HEBREWS 6:4-8 are talking about those who were once BELIEVERS and fell away and departed the faith to become unbelievers.
HEBREWS 6:4-8 is in reference to BELIEVERS; proof being that this group is referenced in the scriptures as;
1. Having been enlightened in God's Word v4;
2. Having tasted of the Heavenly gift v4;
3. Having been made partakers of the Holy Ghost v5;
4. Having tasted of the good Word of God v4;
5. Having tasted of the power of the world to come v5
"HAVING TASTED" means they experienced all of the above in the "PAST TENSE" of scripture application.
6. HAD FALLEN AWAY from the faith v6
7. Returned to a life of known unrepentant sin v6
8. Those who continue down this path lose their salvation v8
Now every point shown above is God's Word not mine. You have to deny a lot of scripture and deny God's Word not to believe the above. These are God's Words and we should believe them as they are written for our admonition and are a WARNING to believers not to fall away and depart from the faith. They support the many other scriptures in the OP showing that salvation is conditional on believing and following God's Word (always present tense) to the end *JAMES 1:12
Hope this is helpful
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3rdAngel
Member
Your post here is not true and does not address the post and the scriptures in them that you are responding to. I have never said that those who end up in the lake of fire are believers. The scriptures in the NEW TESTAMENT say that there will be those who were once BELIEVERS who fall away from the faith to become "UNBELIEVERS". This is also in agreement with the scriptures provided in this OP and all the scriptures from GENESIS to REVELATION that show that salvation and God's promises are CONDITIONAL on believing and following God's Word (faith). Those who once believed yesterday and not longer believe today are UNBELIEVERS not believers. Believe; Belief is always present tense and it is only those who believe and follow God's Word to the end who receive eternal life *JAMES 1:12. It is your view of the scriptures that is not biblical. God only keeps us saved as we believe and follow His Word. Something to pray about.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Again, you don't seem to be able to accurately repeat what passage says. Hebrews 6 says it is impossible to renew them to repentance because they would have to crucify Christ all over again.
You wrote a whole lot and referenced alot of scripture, but you have failed to show how a person who has lost their salvation can be renewed to repentance without crucifying Christ again. That is what the passage says.
I understand why you ignore this passage. It cannot be reconciled with the belief a person can lose and regain their salvation any number of times.
If you respond to my post, I ask that you specifically address that passage that says it is impossible to renew them to salvation BECAUSE they would have to crucify Christ all over again.
I have stated I am always willing to be convinced I'm wrong, but you have to address this passage in context and you continue to ignore the reason scripture gives why they cannot be renewed to repentance which is BECAUSE they would have to crucify Christ all over again.
Peace to you
3rdAngel
Member
Your just repeating yourself here brother without addressing any of the content in the posts you are quoting from. Your post has no truth in it and you deny the scriptures already provided showing that HEBREWS 6:4-8 is in reference to believers that have fallen away from the faith to become "Unbelievers" showing that salvation is conditional on believing and following God's Word.
I can understand why you are snipping my posts and not addressing them. You are however free to believe as you wish we all annswer only to God come judgment day. There is nothing hidden that shall not be revealed.
Your welcome to prove from the scriptures that HEBREWS 6:4-8 is not in reference to those who were once believers yet here you still are having failed to do so.
Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it as both salvation and God's promises as shown through the scriptures in the OP and from GENESIS to REVELATION is condtional on believing and following God's Word to the end.
Ignoring God's Word does not make it dissappear.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
I am not ashamed to repeat scripture as many times as necessary to get you see the truth of what it says. The reason it is impossible to renew them to repentance is BECAUSE they would have to crucify Christ all over again.
As you just, ironically, said, "Ignoring God's Word doesn't make it disappear" You continue to ignore that passage which says the reason they cannot be renewed to repentance is BECAUSE they would have to crucify Christ all over again.
Please address that passage and explain how someone that has lost their salvation can regain it without crucifying Christ all over again.
I'll wait patiently for your direct response to my question. I'm waiting to be convinced.
Peace to you
3rdAngel
Member
Now the facts are these HEBREWS 6:4-8 is in reference to BELIEVERS that have departed the faith and returned to a life of known unrepentant sin. Can you prove this is not true? So far you haven't and if you cannot why do you not believe Gods Word that says that these scriptures are in reference to those who believe and follow God's Word?
I have not ignored a single passage of HEBREWS 6:4-8. Yet it is you who ignore the fact that the reason for providing these scripture is only to show that they are in reference to those who once BELIEVED and FOLLOWED God's WORD and departed the faith. You cannot deny this can you.
You have been provided a verse by verse analysis of the scriptures showing that they are a WARNING to believers not to depart the faith and are in reference to those who once believed and followed God's Word but choose to depart the faith to become "UNBELIEVERS" who no longer believe and follow God's WORD. You cannot deny this can you or have you proven otherwise. If you cannot why do you not believe the scriptures here?
Once I again I have NEVER ignored the scriptures in reference to renewing to repentance. You just did not like the answer given because you do not believe the answer that was given. It is God's Word through the scriptures not mine that show that they cannot renew themselves to repentance because they turned away from the truth of God's Word having once understood God's plan of salvation. This is not talking about someone that was struggling with occasional sin but someone that has left the faith and therefore have no other means of salvation.
Note: "IT IS IMPOSSIBLE" (v4) "IF THEY FALL AWAY" (leave the faith v6); "TO RENEW THEM AGAIN TO REPENTANCE" (v6). It is impossible since they have FALLEN away and departed the faith when it is the very faith they have departed from that is the only way they can be made right with God. The scriptures are saying since they deny the faith they have no other means of salvation. It is not saying God cannot save them but it is saying for men this is impossible; but all things are possible with God * MATTHEW 19:26.
As shown through the scriptures earlier; HEBREWS 6:4-8 as well as HEBREWS 10:26-31 are in reference and WARNINGS to BELIEVERS not to depart from BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's Word which agrees with the many scriptures provided from the first two posts in the OP and both the OLD and NEW TESTAMENT scriptures showing that salvation is conditional on believing and following God's Word. You have not been able to disprove this and ignoring God's Word does not make it dissappear.
Your denial of God's Word here is between you and God. You are free to believe as you wish. I do not judge you. You have been provided God's Word which are not my words. If you agree with them or not it does not make them true or not true it simply means you do not believe them. They are God's Word and I choose to believe them. It is God's Word brother not mine that says salvation and God's promises are conditonal on believing and following God's Word.
You are free to believe as you wish. Sadly though there will be many coming to JESUS on that day thinking that they had salvation but never did *MATTHEW 7:22-23. There is nothing hidded that shall not be revealed.
God bless
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