Can you be a Christian AND (insert sin here)

[Accountable]

Since I am not going to read all 11 Pages and since on the first page I already disagree with several statements, I will let my opinion by known.

You CANNOT be a Christian and a Homosexual.
You CANNOT be a Christian and a murderer.
You CANNOT be a Christian and a pedophile.
You CANNOT be a Christian and a rapist.

There are probably several additions to this list but this gives you an idea. The idea of sin is sin, it doesn't matter what the sin is, we as Christians can commit any of them is absurd and false in all aspects.

Homosexuals can become Christians, but they will no longer be homosexuals or they were not truly converted. Murderers can become Christians, but Christians will not become murderers if they are truly saved.

So what you are now saying is that onced you are saved you become perfect? Spirit, Soul, and Body?

Per you blog, you could add these too: (Though they are as false as the first ones)

I choose to use the term believer.

You CANNOT be a believer and LIE
You CANNOT be a believer and BE FAT (Glutuny is just as much a sin as anything I can think of.) (When one gets saved I gues he or she automatically starts shedding the pounds.)
You CANNOT be a believer and SPEED (We are to obey mans law when it doesn't superceed God's)
You CANNOT be a believer and LUST (Surely onced one gets saved he never lusts again!)

Are you as dogmatic on these as well?

The true statement is:

You CANNOT be a believer and get away with murder, glutuny, etc.

If gone unconfessed, it will be brought back to view at the Judgement Seat and the penalty will be required.

I do encourage an answer to the question are you dogmatic on these others.

 

[Accountable]

AHH, you beat me to the punch! And you did it so smooothly that now posting my reply seems a bit too course. But now that you already taught me a lesson in meekness, and so you know what I’m talking about, I’ll just tell you how I was going to answer:

“Frankly, I seriously doubt that very few if any SBC or any others here buy into this double-tongued, two salvation spitting, protestant purgatory drivel, or these, what I would call: “private interpretations with obvious agendas which include hidden forms of works based salvation; (although I’m sure it will be denied by those advocating this “other gospel” apart from grace with more double-talk), anyways, MY answer is: “No, it is plainly heretical ME tripe, clearly against the teachings of the Protestant faith for good reason!” AND I see on other Christian boards this ME doctrine is classified as being BANDED right along with “Oneness” “Mormonism” “JW” and “Catholicism”, WHY it this teaching being allowed to be PROSELYTIZED here, I don’t know!




That frankly said, what’s your point? Just curious.”



I wonder if this has any bearing to the matter of my wife telling me that I too often go straight for the jugular vein when I feel someone is REALLY WRONG? :laugh: Glad I learned this lesson. Thanks Ed. :saint:

1. Pick up a book on The History of the Baptist Church. There are several decent one out there. You will find that we are not Protestant.

2. I gave 2 examples of prominant men among your convention. Do you need more?

I don't know how far he goes and will not try to speculate but have you read any of the commentaries by John Phillips? See what he says about The Judgement Seat of Christ in Type with Genesis 49, Jacob and the sons.

Also see What I wrote to Ed.

 

[EdSutton]

Since I am not going to read all 11 Pages and since on the first page I already disagree with several statements, I will let my opinion by known.

You CANNOT be a Christian and a Homosexual.
You CANNOT be a Christian and a murderer.
You CANNOT be a Christian and a pedophile.
You CANNOT be a Christian and a rapist.

There are probably several additions to this list but this gives you an idea. The idea of sin is sin, it doesn't matter what the sin is, we as Christians can commit any of them is absurd and false in all aspects.

Homosexuals can become Christians, but they will no longer be homosexuals or they were not truly converted. Murderers can become Christians, but Christians will not become murderers if they are truly saved.

OK, without getting into all the specifics of your list, may I substitute "saved" for Christian (hence not limiting one to the church age only) and ask these questions.

We'll do this kind of like a Top-Ten list on David Letterman for effect.

#10. Can one be a murderer and an adulterer and be saved? Ever hear of David, the man after God's own heart?

#9. Can one be a liar, thief and cheater and be saved? How about Jacob, who wrestled personally with the Lord Jesus Christ all one night?

#8. Can one be a drunk and be saved? Try Noah, who walked with God!

#7. Can one be a Christ denier and be saved? How about good ol' Peter? ("I'll never deny you, Lord!")

#6. Can one be a prostitute and be saved? Consider Rahab, the harlot! (Scripture never says she was once a harlot, BTW, but was one no longer.)

#5. Can one be a great 'womanizer' and a big egoist and be saved? Samson, ya' think!?

#4. Can one be the 'chief of sinners' and be saved? Yep! Paul, the apostle!

#3. Can one be the worst bigot, with the worst attitude in history, and be saved? Ol' Jonah was.

#2. Can one be the worst polygamist in history and be saved? You do know Solomon, I presume.

#1. Are we making a point yet, and I do have a #1, but shall hold off on the this one for a bit.

BTW, you will find about half of these named in the 'Hall of Fame of faith' of the faithful, in Heb. 11, FTR.

Frankly, I'd say some of these saints don't appear too 'saintly', but I'm not the one saying any of this, Scripture is.

I definitely think that we should look for good examples in the heroes of Scripture, and I think I just found the best example I know. The Biblical "saint of saints"! Scripture speaks of his righteousness being called "just" or "righteous" three times, more than anyone save the Lord Jesus Christ, and Abel, who also is called "righteous" three times, and is the only individual specifically identified as "godly". I'll go with him!

#1. My Biblical hero is Lot!
Hizzoner! The Mayor of Sodom, who was attempting to 'pimp' his own daughters to the mob!

Hmmm! Nice crowd with the above, don't you think??

Ed

 

[Benjamin]

2. I gave 2 examples of prominant men among your convention. Do you need more?

I don't know how far he goes and will not try to speculate...

Well, I also like these men you mention consider the JSOC and accountabilities for a saint, but think it a stretch to throw “them” into the ME doctrine for the mere consideration to help prove a doctrine by a few others. Personally, I don’t have all the answers to put into a systematic theology, but certainly can find other reasoning beyond two salvations or types of purgatory. Preservation of the saints for one, but never, God forbid any disbelief in the Glory of His Grace, that I could ever pay for my own sins.

Peace...Out

 

[ShotGunWillie]

So what you are now saying is that onced you are saved you become perfect? Spirit, Soul, and Body?

Per you blog, you could add these too: (Though they are as false as the first ones)

I choose to use the term believer.

You CANNOT be a believer and LIE
You CANNOT be a believer and BE FAT (Glutuny is just as much a sin as anything I can think of.) (When one gets saved I gues he or she automatically starts shedding the pounds.)
You CANNOT be a believer and SPEED (We are to obey mans law when it doesn't superceed God's)
You CANNOT be a believer and LUST (Surely onced one gets saved he never lusts again!)

Are you as dogmatic on these as well?

The true statement is:

You CANNOT be a believer and get away with murder, glutuny, etc.

If gone unconfessed, it will be brought back to view at the Judgement Seat and the penalty will be required.

I do encourage an answer to the question are you dogmatic on these others.

I wouldn't use believer as a term for Christians, when I say Christian I am not using it as in all emcompassing term used to define denominations who might have some form of knowledge concerning God or Christ Jesus. I am using it to reference true Christians, bought by the blood of Christ, not fake Christians who wear it over the sleeves easily brushed away when the timing is right.

Satan is a believer, as are his legion of fallen angels. Does that make them Christians?

To compare over eating to homosexuality is false in all ways possible. A demon possessed person engages in homosexuality. To compare speeding to child molestation is absurd.

I do not and will not buy into the philosophy that so many professing Christians have today, sin is sin and God loves you any way.

Not all sin is equal, not all sin is punished in the same manner. The idea that God hates the sin and loves the sinner is what has caused Christians their downward spiral.

 

[EdSutton]

That frankly said, what’s your point? Just curious.

I had no point, per se, only a question, in that I had no idea to what was being referred.

Unfortunately, I failed the 'mind-reading' course, in college. :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

 

[ShotGunWillie]

So what you are now saying is that onced you are saved you become perfect? Spirit, Soul, and Body?

I failed to respond to this portion of your response. I apologize. You will never be perfect, we have a sinful flesh, as Christians we do sin. But as Christians there are some things we will not do. Speeding we will do, over eating we will do. Being a murderer or a rapist we will not be if we are truly saved. If we have Christ in our hearts and we are truly saved and the Holy Ghost is moving in us, we will not take part in homosexual acts.

 

[Hope of Glory]

And I don't find in these verses many, if any, references to the implication that one had to 'act' "saintly" in order to be named a saint.

And where is a single one that refers to all saved people as "saint"?

I pulled up the same list you did (although Linda caught my typo of 13 in the NT instead of 13 in the Revelation), and I did not see any that said that all saved people were saints.

In fact, I saw several that were referring specifically to behavior. I pointed out the most direct ones, but there are several others implied.

Where are the verses that say that all saved people are saints?

 

[Hope of Glory]

I fully agree with this regarding Acts 16:31, but I am no "Calvinist" per se by any stretch, and any implication of 'lying' does not fit, at all, with the original quote of my own post, nor my original post, as well.

Ed

That was not directed at you by any stretch.

 

[Hope of Glory]

I wonder if this has any bearing to the matter of my wife telling me that I too often go straight for the jugular vein when I feel someone is REALLY WRONG? :laugh: Glad I learned this lesson. Thanks Ed. :saint:

Yet, you've done it all with nothing but invective, without a single passage of Scripture, while we have given loads of Scripture.

Funny that, huh?

 

[Benjamin]

I had no point, per se, only a question, in that I had no idea to what was being referred.

Unfortunately, I failed the 'mind-reading' course, in college. :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

I was addressing what is the point to “Accountable” anticipating a suggestion that the SBC followed this doctrine. Just realized that after seeing you ask basically the same with fewer words and in a less confrontational way thought I should at least humbly acknowledge your smoothness while getting in my two cents. :tonofbricks:

 

[Accountable]

Well, I also like these men you mention consider the JSOC and accountabilities for a saint, but think it a stretch to throw “them” into the ME doctrine for the mere consideration to help prove a doctrine by a few others. Personally, I don’t have all the answers to put into a systematic theology, but certainly can find other reasoning beyond two salvations or types of purgatory. Preservation of the saints for one, but never, God forbid any disbelief in the Glory of His Grace, that I could ever pay for my own sins.

Peace...Out

Actually the doctrine I preach is the same doctrine preacdhing by the Baptists of Old.
You call it a purgatory but then say you agree with these men. Dr. Charles Stanley does not put unfaithful believers in the realm of the Kingdom. Is he now preaching heresy too?

I do not just throw in names. I have reasearched and know what these men teach about this matter.

 

[Accountable]

I wouldn't use believer as a term for Christians, when I say Christian I am not using it as in all emcompassing term used to define denominations who might have some form of knowledge concerning God or Christ Jesus. I am using it to reference true Christians, bought by the blood of Christ, not fake Christians who wear it over the sleeves easily brushed away when the timing is right.

Satan is a believer, as are his legion of fallen angels. Does that make them Christians?

To compare over eating to homosexuality is false in all ways possible. A demon possessed person engages in homosexuality. To compare speeding to child molestation is absurd.

I do not and will not buy into the philosophy that so many professing Christians have today, sin is sin and God loves you any way.

Not all sin is equal, not all sin is punished in the same manner. The idea that God hates the sin and loves the sinner is what has caused Christians their downward spiral.

It is interesting that we choose what sins to hate and ebrace the ones as "not as bad" when we are guilty of them!
Jesus Himself said in the last days they will be "Eating and Drinking."
You see no warning there? The problem is that so many Baptist Preachers indulge in lustful glutuny that we no longer see it as sin. I Beleive dying at 42 from a massive heart attack due to years of over eating and eating poison is a shame. How man more years could he had served the Lord as a healthy man of God. \

You'll never hear that at a Baptist Funeral!

It has become a joke from behind pulpits but to God it is no laughing matter.

 

[Benjamin]

Yet, you've done it all with nothing but invective, without a single passage of Scripture, while we have given loads of Scripture.

Been there...done that... Answered ya'lls "loads" with scripture as have others, but the proselytizing of it keeps surfacing when ever the opportunity arises. Have fun.

 

[rbell]

Logical conclusion of those with "you can't be a Christian and..." lists:

If you die with one solitary unconfessed sin in your life, you go to hell.

Catholic theology, anyone? ANyone for last rites?

 

[EdSutton]

Logical conclusion of those with "you can't be a Christian and..." lists:

If you die with one solitary unconfessed sin in your life, you go to hell.

Catholic theology, anyone? ANyone for last rites?

Well put!

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

And where is a single one that refers to all saved people as "saint"?

I pulled up the same list you did (although Linda caught my typo of 13 in the NT instead of 13 in the Revelation), and I did not see any that said that all saved people were saints.

In fact, I saw several that were referring specifically to behavior. I pointed out the most direct ones, but there are several others implied.

Where are the verses that say that all saved people are saints?

Where are the verses that differentiate that saints are not all the saved, by the same token? Did God have two churches in Rome, Corinth, Phillipi, Ephesus, Phillipi, as well as multitudinous churces in Galatia and "Asia", some of which consisted of saved people who hadn't yet attained "sainthood", whatever that means, and one for "saints only"? These churches were called, in the collective, "saints. I suggest that would not apply to unsaved people, nor does it exclude those who "have not yet arrived". Did not Paul, say he was less than the least of the saints, and that he was the 'chief of sinners', as well? I suggest that if Paul was not a saint, then none of us have much of a shot at it, as well. Was David not an OT saint, merely because he was not one of those whose graves were opened at the resurrection of the Lord? I kinda' doubt that.

Yes, there is a difference between the various OT saints, the Tribulation saints, the millenial saints, and the church age saints. But all are and were believers, and I see these various classes as positional and benefactory, but not as 'differentiating', and find no Scripture that that is the case.

We are all, as believers, supposed to "act like the saints that we are", I agree.

Ya' know, unlike Lot, or Jacob when dealing with his family, or Noah when he was drunk, for three examples.

And it is sad when that is not the case, but it does not make us any less a saint.

Ed

 

[TBLADY]

So what you are now saying is that onced you are saved you become perfect? Spirit, Soul, and Body?

Per you blog, you could add these too: (Though they are as false as the first ones)

I choose to use the term believer.

You CANNOT be a believer and LIE
You CANNOT be a believer and BE FAT (Glutuny is just as much a sin as anything I can think of.) (When one gets saved I gues he or she automatically starts shedding the pounds.)
You CANNOT be a believer and SPEED (We are to obey mans law when it doesn't superceed God's)
You CANNOT be a believer and LUST (Surely onced one gets saved he never lusts again!)

Are you as dogmatic on these as well?

The true statement is:

You CANNOT be a believer and get away with murder, glutuny, etc.

If gone unconfessed, it will be brought back to view at the Judgement Seat and the penalty will be required.

I do encourage an answer to the question are you dogmatic on these others.

Accountablity is right, sin is sin is sin any Christian is able to any sin possible if he isn't walking in close fellowship with God. If you believe you can lose your salvation (which is heresy) then of course you will believe a certain sin will casue you to be "unsaved"

 

[ShotGunWillie]

If you die with one solitary unconfessed sin in your life, you go to hell.

Are you saying you abide by this doctrine? Is there no such thing as eternal security?

It is interesting that we choose what sins to hate and ebrace the ones as "not as bad" when we are guilty of them!
Jesus Himself said in the last days they will be "Eating and Drinking."
You see no warning there? The problem is that so many Baptist Preachers indulge in lustful glutuny that we no longer see it as sin. I Beleive dying at 42 from a massive heart attack due to years of over eating and eating poison is a shame. How man more years could he had served the Lord as a healthy man of God. \

You'll never hear that at a Baptist Funeral!

It has become a joke from behind pulpits but to God it is no laughing matter

I am laughing at your logic. All sin is bad, but not all sin is equal, if this is not so, why are some sins called abominations and others not? Why was Sodom and Gommrah destroyed because they had a Golden Corral and a Super Chinese Buffet. Nope.

 

[ShotGunWillie]

Accountablity is right, sin is sin is sin any Christian is able to any sin possible if he isn't walking in close fellowship with God. If you believe you can lose your salvation (which is heresy) then of course you will believe a certain sin will casue you to be "unsaved"

Nothing that I have mentioned speaks of losing your salvation. You are either saved or unsaved. You can have a false conversion. If you indulge in certain sins, while you claiming to be saved, then you are as lost as lost can be.

So I guess all of the gay and lesbian preachers around are all saved and just willingly living in sin. And that is a sin of a stumbling Christian? What is a Christian in that state doing teaching others about Christ?

There are going to be many fooled by this false doctrine, all sin is the same.