Apparently some people do not know what a disciple is.
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Can you be a Christian but not a disciple?
- Thread starter Revmitchell
- Start date
There is no specific amount of time to “become a disciple.” You become a disciple by believing in Christ. Those in Christ are abiding in His word. The other option is that cognitive acceptance of a truth yields salvation without a regenerated spirit. Yet Scripture seems to indicate that we die to our old selves and are alive in Christ (we are disciples). I think you are confusing being a disciple of Christ with sanctification (as a process) and spiritual growth (but that’s just me).
You will never see anyone healed who did not believe.
Mat 17:14 And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying,
15 Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water.
16 And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.
17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.
18 And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.
19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
Mat 13:58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
These lepers were all healed. Yet only one out of ten returned in thankfulness. Unfortunately, this is the way many Christians are. We gladly believe on Jesus for forgiveness of our sins. But then we go our way like these lepers. These persons are saved, but they bear no fruit and receive no rewards.
In these passages, exactly whose unbelief are we talking about here?
I believe that Jesus had enough faith to heal as would glorify the Father. I see no evidence that the 9 who did not return were believers.
Uh, the "lunatic" had no faith nore was capable to have faith as he was possessed. The problem with faith was found in the disciples. Your application here is incorrect.
I understand it was the disciples lack of faith. Nevertheless, no faith, no miracle or healing.
The father's faith was weak, but he had faith, and so his son was healed.
Mar 9:24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
I think we should not be harsh of the father, he had seen all the disciples repeatedly fail to heal his son, this would tend to discourage anyone.
Ok you missed my point. You assertion that the 9 lepers were saved because they had to have faith in order to be healed is now proven wrong. I would further add that having faith in Jesus to heal is different from having faith that Jesus can and will save them.
Why faith?
Did Jesus have faith when he healed?
The lepers were not out of their mind like the possessed boy, they were of sound minds and they all called on Jesus to heal them.
Luk 17:12 And as he entered into a certain village, there met him ten men that were lepers, which stood afar off:
13 And they lifted up their voices, and said, Jesus, Master, have mercy on us.
14 And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed.
These lepers without doubt had heard of Jesus and how he had healed many people, they called on him by name. They had faith, and they were healed.
They had faith He could heal them but that is not the same faith that leads to salvation. And my point about the lunatic stands. He could not have faith at all until he was healed and exorcized. The faith there that was needed was on the disciples. That prove your point is wrong.
No, you can't expect someone who is possessed and out of their mind to believe. Jesus healed the boy for the sake of his father who asked for his son's healing and believed.
When the father asked the disciples, they doubted and therefore the boy was not healed. But Jesus asked the father if he could believe. The father had difficulty, which is understandable after he had seen the disciples repeatedly fail, but he believed, and Jesus healed his son for him.
In the case of the lepers, they were not out of their mind. They could be expected to believe for themselves and they did, else they would not have been healed.
And it is pretty far fetched to believe after Jesus healed them of leprosy that they did not believe on him for salvation. The Jews knew who the Messiah was.
I'm really not sure that I want to participate in this discussion. I have in the past discussed LS here on the BB, and it can quickly get nasty. I'm pretty tired of that--which makes me tired of many of the discussions here! Having said that, I am going to present some facts that are seldom mentioned in these discussions. Caveat: I do not hold to "easy believism," I do not believe that one has to pray to be saved. Salvation comes through heart belief based on the work of the Holy Spirit, but prayer is a work, and we are not saved through works.
Having said that, note this definition of disciple (Gr. mathetes) from my BAGD Greek lexicon: "gener. pupil, apprentice (in contrast to the teacher).... disciple, adherent." (p. 485; italics in the original). Notice that the term "disciple" does not refer to an action of the heart, but to the outward appearance. Thus it is usually used in the Gospels and Acts of outward adherents to the new faith. Note especially John 6:66, where many who were called disciples quit on Jesus because they could no longer agree with His teaching. There is a similar usage in the secular world in China, wherein a person becomes an official "disciple" of a teacher of a traditional art such as kung fu through an outward ceremony. (I have a friend who went through this.)
Now here is a fact not mentioned yet on this thread, indeed seldom mentioned in this debate (MacArthur misses it altogether in TGATJ's first edition): the term disciple never, ever occurs after Acts! From Romans on, Paul never uses it, John never uses it, Peter and James never use it, the author of Hebrews never does--no one does! Instead the term "believe" occurs quite often in reference to salvation, often the Greek article with the Greek participle, "one who believes." And very often salvation is discussed in reference to belief (faith) with no reference to the Lordship of Christ. (For example, read 1 John, where the title "Lord" never occurs.)
Having said that, note this definition of disciple (Gr. mathetes) from my BAGD Greek lexicon: "gener. pupil, apprentice (in contrast to the teacher).... disciple, adherent." (p. 485; italics in the original). Notice that the term "disciple" does not refer to an action of the heart, but to the outward appearance. Thus it is usually used in the Gospels and Acts of outward adherents to the new faith. Note especially John 6:66, where many who were called disciples quit on Jesus because they could no longer agree with His teaching. There is a similar usage in the secular world in China, wherein a person becomes an official "disciple" of a teacher of a traditional art such as kung fu through an outward ceremony. (I have a friend who went through this.)
Now here is a fact not mentioned yet on this thread, indeed seldom mentioned in this debate (MacArthur misses it altogether in TGATJ's first edition): the term disciple never, ever occurs after Acts! From Romans on, Paul never uses it, John never uses it, Peter and James never use it, the author of Hebrews never does--no one does! Instead the term "believe" occurs quite often in reference to salvation, often the Greek article with the Greek participle, "one who believes." And very often salvation is discussed in reference to belief (faith) with no reference to the Lordship of Christ. (For example, read 1 John, where the title "Lord" never occurs.)
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HungryInherit
New Member
Faith is confidence, trust.
Faith always needs an object.
The object of my faith is Christ. He is the one that I trust.
Who does Christ trust? Who is the object of His faith (if he has faith).
One would presume that if God had faith, then he would have to have someone to put his faith or trust in, and thus be weaker or submissive than the object in whom he is trusting.
Is God weak? Is Christ weak?
No its not.
Hope it helps the dialogue, brother. :wavey:
Does God require the sinner to immediately take up the Cross of Christ in the sense though that the person fully surrenders all areas of their lives to jesus right now, or is it that one becomes saved first, than indeed pick up the Cross as becoming disciples of Jesus, growing up in grace and maturity?