Can you be a Christian but not a disciple?

[Yeshua1]

I'm really not sure that I want to participate in this discussion. I have in the past discussed LS here on the BB, and it can quickly get nasty. I'm pretty tired of that--which makes me tired of many of the discussions here! Having said that, I am going to present some facts that are seldom mentioned in these discussions. Caveat: I do not hold to "easy believism," I do not believe that one has to pray to be saved. Salvation comes through heart belief based on the work of the Holy Spirit, but prayer is a work, and we are not saved through works.

Having said that, note this definition of disciple (Gr. mathetes) from my BAGD Greek lexicon: "gener. pupil, apprentice (in contrast to the teacher).... disciple, adherent." (p. 485; italics in the original). Notice that the term "disciple" does not refer to an action of the heart, but to the outward appearance. Thus it is usually used in the Gospels and Acts of outward adherents to the new faith. Note especially John 6:66, where many who were called disciples quit on Jesus because they could no longer agree with His teaching. There is a similar usage in the secular world in China, wherein a person becomes an official "disciple" of a teacher of a traditional art such as kung fu through an outward ceremony. (I have a friend who went through this.)

Now here is a fact not mentioned yet on this thread, indeed seldom mentioned in this debate (MacArthur misses it altogether in TGATJ's first edition): the term disciple never, ever occurs after Acts! From Romans on, Paul never uses it, John never uses it, Peter and James never use it, the author of Hebrews never does--no one does! Instead the term "believe" occurs quite often in reference to salvation, often the Greek article with the Greek participle, "one who believes." And very often salvation is discussed in reference to belief (faith) with no reference to the Lordship of Christ. (For example, read 1 John, where the title "Lord" never occurs.)

that is why I tend to see this in two separate areas...

can a sinner become saved apart from being a disciple of Christ? Yes, as per Apostles John/peter/paul, as they all wrote that whosoever believes in him shall be saved, but they also all added that once saved, that person must become His disciple, in order to experience becoming conformed into image of jesus!

 

[Yeshua1]

Faith is confidence, trust.
Faith always needs an object.
The object of my faith is Christ. He is the one that I trust.
Who does Christ trust? Who is the object of His faith (if he has faith).
One would presume that if God had faith, then he would have to have someone to put his faith or trust in, and thus be weaker or submissive than the object in whom he is trusting.
Is God weak? Is Christ weak?

Jesus was/is God incarnate, and the scriptures say to us that he failed to some some things due to lack of faith by others, NEVER that he needed faith to do things!

IF jesus needed to have faith, then the wof teachers would appear to be right, in that faith is your way to "write your ticket with God!"

 

[Revmitchell]

People are assigning their personal and modern day version of believe to this. The Jews understood that believe meant more than just a mental assent to some facts. Believe in also meant a love for and a dedication that lead to true discipleship.

One cannot be like the 9 lepers who wanted what the Savior had to offer but did not want the Savior Himself.

 

[Yeshua1]

People are assigning their personal and modern day version of believe to this. The Jews understood that believe meant more than just a mental assent to some facts. Believe in also meant a love for and a dedication that lead to true discipleship.

One cannot be like the 9 lepers who wanted what the Savior had to offer but did not want the Savior Himself.

God can and has save us by faith alone, thru faith alone, and that is the FREE GIFT of God towards us in Jesus, but after saved, we must strive to continue to mature in the faith!

There is no real salvation that tells us I am now saved, but continue to think and act just as IF I was not!

that happens though AFTER being saved, not salvation itself!

 

[Revmitchell]

God can and has save us by faith alone, thru faith alone, and that is the FREE GIFT of God towards us in Jesus, but after saved, we must strive to continue to mature in the faith!

There is no real salvation that tells us I am now saved, but continue to think and act just as IF I was not!

that happens though AFTER being saved, not salvation itself!

You are confusing sanctification with believe.

 

[Yeshua1]

You are confusing sanctification with believe.

I am not, but believe that is EXACTLY what those holding to a severe form of Lordship salvation do!

 

[Revmitchell]

I am not, but believe that is EXACTLY what those holding to a severe form of Lordship salvation do!

Yea you are, you also seem to struggle to understand what believe is.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Apparently some people do not know what a disciple is.

I was thinking the same thing ...

 

[Yeshua1]

Yea you are, you also seem to struggle to understand what believe is.

How so? Biblical faith is sufficient when the object of it is Jesus as messiah/Lord/savior, that he died in our stead, so is that not sufficient in and by itself to save a sinner?

 

[JonC]

Does God require the sinner to immediately take up the Cross of Christ in the sense though that the person fully surrenders all areas of their lives to jesus right now, or is it that one becomes saved first, than indeed pick up the Cross as becoming disciples of Jesus, growing up in grace and maturity?

I do not think that we fully surrender all areas of our lives in this lifetime but instead we take up our cross daily…but I do believe that when we are saved we are re-born and are what we were not prior to salvation. This is the sense that I see Lordship – it is inherent in the definition of saving faith…or belief. We are sanctified and we are being sanctified because we are in Christ. Either Christ is our Lord or He is not. If not, then we cannot be said to be children of God because it is that relationship which defines our status.

 

[Yeshua1]

I do not think that we fully surrender all areas of our lives in this lifetime but instead we take up our cross daily…but I do believe that when we are saved we are re-born and are what we were not prior to salvation. This is the sense that I see Lordship – it is inherent in the definition of saving faith…or belief. We are sanctified and we are being sanctified because we are in Christ. Either Christ is our Lord or He is not. If not, then we cannot be said to be children of God because it is that relationship which defines our status.

confirmed to Him God the father installs Jesus as Our Lord when he saves us by/thru Him, so in the sense of God view, we have jesus as Lord, but from our human view, this does need to worked out, as we are in a process to become more confirmed into image of Christ!

Think we are saying essentially same thing, as we seem to agree that we are once and for all instantly Justified before God, in right standing, when we receive jesus, but must continue to work out the process of submitting to the sauctifying work after that event!

 

[Revmitchell]

but from our human view, this does need to worked out, as we are in a process to become more confirmed into image of Christ!

It does need to be worked out.

 

[John of Japan]

People are assigning their personal and modern day version of believe to this. The Jews understood that believe meant more than just a mental assent to some facts. Believe in also meant a love for and a dedication that lead to true discipleship.

You offer no proof for this statement.

Proof that the Greek word pisteuo has a wide range of meaning, so that context is needed to determine the meaning in any one usage:

Matt. 9:28--And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.

Matt. 24:23--Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

Matt. 24:26--Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

This is just the book of Matthew, but there are many more examples.

 

[kyredneck]

What biblical instruction did the woman at the well have? Or the thief on Calvary? The only instruction was to BELIEVE. Not to go and be a disciple.

You're making some good points.

Apparently some people do not know what a disciple is.

Please tell us what a disciple is and how one can be a disciple while not attracting attention to it.

And after these things Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, asked of Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took away his body. And there came also Nicodemus, he who at the first came to him by night, bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about a hundred pounds. Jn 19:38,39

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

What biblical instruction did the woman at the well have? Or the thief on Calvary? The only instruction was to BELIEVE. Not to go and be a disciple.

One time, Jesus used the word "believe" in the passage of John 4:7-38, but the words "worship" (proskuneo) and "reap" (therizo) or forms of them are used no less than nine and seven times, respectively. The message is not only "believe," -- and that is really secondary -- but also "act." And only a disciple can act. A believer simply believes, but must become a "learner" -- a disciple -- in order to act, because only the disciple learns how to act, and why.

 

[Yeshua1]

One time, Jesus used the word "believe" in the passage of John 4:7-38, but the words "worship" (proskuneo) and "reap" (therizo) or forms of them are used no less than nine and seven times, respectively. The message is not only "believe," -- and that is really secondary -- but also "act." And only a disciple can act. A believer simply believes, but must become a "learner" -- a disciple -- in order to act, because only the disciple learns how to act, and why.

ALL Christians are believers in jesus, but not all have chosen to be His disciples!

 

[HungryInherit]

I'm not sure why people are ignoring the posts of John of Japan on this topic.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

ALL Christians are believers in jesus, but not all have chosen to be His disciples!

As I quoted Him earlier from the Gospel of Luke, He said, "Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple" (Luke 14:27). If one is not willing to repent, surrender him/herself, follow Him, take up his/her cross, not only is that person not a disciple, that person is not a Christian. Period. End of story.

 

[JamesL]

As I quoted Him earlier from the Gospel of Luke, He said, "Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple" (Luke 14:27). If one is not willing to repent, surrender him/herself, follow Him, take up his/her cross, not only is that person not a disciple, that person is not a Christian. Period. End of story.

How does your view differ from Lordship Salvation? I believe I've seen you reject LS, but then you seem to affirm what they teach

I could be wrong, seeing that I don't troll around peering in on all your posts.

But you seem to be saying that one is either radically "sold out" or he's an absolute imposter, much like Lordship proponents would


And what makes you think your "end of story" is any more authoritative than anyone else's end of story ??

 

[HungryInherit]

As I quoted Him earlier from the Gospel of Luke, He said, "Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple" (Luke 14:27). If one is not willing to repent, surrender him/herself, follow Him, take up his/her cross, not only is that person not a disciple, that person is not a Christian. Period. End of story.

What? How does that passage deal with eternal salvation? It says being a disciple takes true sacrifice. He is not speaking of attaining eternal life.