Can you lose your salvation?

[defenderofthefaith]

Oh dear, soo many responses and so little time.
I'll try my best to respond to each and every one of you, but I cannot gurantee that I'll get to every single one of you and personally reply to you.

1 Cor 10.12 has nothing to do with losing salvation; it's about fallling into temptation. Why did you post that one?

The word "fall" here is piptō and it means (source: Greek lexicon) :
- to descend from a higher place to a lower
- to fall (either from or upon)
- to fall out, fall from i.e. shall perish or be lost
- to fall from a state of uprightness
- to perish, i.e come to an end, disappear, cease
- to lose authority, no longer have force
- to fail of participating in, miss a share in

and the word "fall" here can also be used in Galatians 5:4
“Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.”

In 1 Corinthians 10:1-13 Paul has just spoken of exerting himself to the utmost, lest he should be a Castaway (9:27). That reminded him of the same danger to Christians generally. They had better take their Religion seriously. Most of those who were delivered out of Egypt never got to Promised Land. The Temptations that caused them to Fall by the wayside were very much the same temptations that the Corinthians were facing (7-8), Lustful Indulgence. If they would strive wholeheartedly, with resolute determination, to overcome, as he was doing (9:25-27), then they would not fall from their saved state.

This was about falling into temptation and through temptations and sin - falling from grace.
Though I ask the question - why would Paul (or the Holy Spirit that inspired him) waste time telling them to be on their guard for temptations if all those who were saved could not be tempted enough and sin enough to lose that salvation?

However, I would like to know what you think John 10.28 means?
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Okay, it's pretty simple:
God will give you the gift of Salvation. ("...I give eternal life to them...")
You must accept that gift of Salvation.
Accept that gift and you will not perish ("...they will never perish..."
Decide to return to your old man, you return that gift (Salvation).
No man can return that gift (Salvation) back for you - you do that yourself. ("...no one will snatch them out of My hand...")

Also, what does it mean to be sealed with the Holy Spirit?

1. 2 Corinthians 1:22
   who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.
2. Ephesians 1:13
   In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
3. Ephesians 4:30
   Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

The word "sealed" here is sphragizō and that means:
- to set a seal upon, mark with a seal, to seal
- in order to mark a person or a thing
- to set a mark upon by the impress of a seal or a stamp
- angels are said to be sealed by God
- in order to prove, confirm, or attest a thing
- to confirm authenticate
- of a written document
- to prove one's testimony to a person that he is what he professes to be

Where does it say that this seal is "indestructible" or even that this seal is "enternal security" for your salvation?
The seal is a "mark" on Christians so that the world may know that they are Christians, since all Christians are a 'peculiar people' (Titus 2:14; 1 Peter 2:9) and all Christians stand out of the world because they are not of the world (John 17:14) and we have this "mark" (seal) because we have "...the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts." (2 Corinthians 1:22)

When we are sealed, that's it. We can't unseal the "seal."

Lets makes this small example.
Envelope = God, Jesus Christ, Ect.
Letter = You, Your life
Seal = Salvation

You are saved, you put Your Life (letter) into God (Envelope) and recieve the Gift of Salvation (seal).
Take your life out of God (Envelope) by sinning and turning to the 'old man'; how else will you get Your Life (letter) out except by breaking that seal?

God gives man a choice and man NEVER looses that choice. The choice is to serve God or Satan, to go to Heaven or Hell. At no time does God LOCK you into the path to Heaven, you always have the choice. Always.

 

[defenderofthefaith]

Paul is warning about pride. But even in this context, notice his careful wording. He does not say "Let Him who stands"; he says "Let him who THINKS He stands". He is clearly insinuating the idea that those who fall, were never in fact standing in the first place.

Your logic here makes no sense. Why would he tell those who were not even standing "take heed lest you fall!" when...they've never gotten to any place where they can fall. For example it'd be like walking up to someone laying on the ground and saying "Hey watch out, you might trip and fall".

No. Wrong. Paul is speaking to Jews. Therefore He calls them brethren. This is a letter designed to be read to a congregation. Jesus makes it VERY clear, that there would be "tares" among the wheat. Paul was aware of this.

This letter was written to the Jewish Christians of Palenstine.

Notice the problem with these people. It is there heart. They have a "heart of unbelief", i.e. they are not saved. Without "pistis" there is no salvation.

Look how the verse is worded:
Hebrews 3:12
“Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.”

It says they have an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
The word 'in' means that they are in that heart of unbelief because they departed from the living God!
The verse could said like this: "Be on your guard, brothers, in case there are any of you that have an evil heart of unbelief because you departed from the living God."

You are assuming the two states are "saved" and "unsaved". Yet there is no where in these verses the word for "saved".

"For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them."

What does this mean to you? If you do not know the way to reighteousness then you are not saved! Its clear - it would be better for you not to be saved ever than for you to be saved but then lose that salvation.

Nor are these people said to have had "faith" NOR have they "repented". They have "become enlightened" (gained knowledge), and "escaped pollution" (escaped from some sinful entanglements).

Incorrect!
They DO have faith because they have heard and gained "the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ". See Romans 10:17 - "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
So they gained the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and through that, according to Romans, they have faith!

They had repented because what does it mean to repent? Right from the dictionary definition - to change one's life for the better
What is the better? The better is to have escaped from the entanglements of the world and sins of the world.
So they have escaped the pollutions of the world by repenting - how else could they have escaped except through repentance?

Also, notice their problem: They are DOGS! The problem isnot what they have done, but their very NATURE never changed! Had they not been "dogs" they would not have returned to their vomit. This again shows that our nature results in our actions, not vice versa.

The Hebrew writer never says they are dogs, he implies they are like dogs returning to their vomit.
Also look at this - "...the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."
It says the sow is washed! The sow is clean, this is symbolically "saved" because the sow is clean from all dirt (sin) but then it says it returns to her "wallowing in the mire."

I am worn out from hours staring at this computer screen, I will return tomorrow and respond to more of your responses.

 

[Don]

The Hebrew writer never says they are dogs, he implies they are like dogs returning to their vomit.

Dude, that's what he's saying. The dogs are following their nature, because it hasn't changed; and just like them, the people who are falling into "unsaved" ways are doing so because they weren't saved, they hadn't believed to the saving of their soul.

In light of your stance, Defender, would you please explain to me why 1 Peter 3:21 says "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh"?

 

[defenderofthefaith]

Dude, that's what he's saying. The dogs are following their nature, because it hasn't changed; and just like them, the people who are falling into "unsaved" ways are doing so because they weren't saved, they hadn't believed to the saving of their soul.

Please read what I said above the quote about the dogs and you'll see that these people HAD repented and had faith (belief).

In light of your stance, Defender, would you please explain to me why 1 Peter 3:21 says "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh"?

1 Peter 3:21
"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

It means that Baptism saves you but it's not the water that saves you; it's the act of obedience and the turning of your conscience to God (repentance).
When your Baptized your in water, like a bath, but it's not that cleaning of your fleshly body that saves you.

1 Peter 3:21 New American Standard
"Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,"

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Sealed

The tendency is to consider Sealed as a final condition...

However, the Greek can also be that of an attesting signature of ownership, or as an engagement ring.

As for an engagement no matter how committed the groom the bride can always get cold feet.

As in the love of many wax cold?

G4972
σφραγίζω
sphragizō
Total KJV Occurrences: 27
sealed, 20
Rom_15:27-28 (2), 2Co_1:22, Eph_1:13, Eph_4:30, Rev_7:3-8 (15)
seal, 4
Joh_3:33, Rev_10:4, Rev_20:3, Rev_22:10
set, 2
Joh_3:33, Rev_20:3
sealing, 1
Mat_27:66

From G4973; to stamp (with a signet or private mark) for security or preservation (literally or figuratively); by implication to keep secret, to attest: - (set a, set to) seal up, stop.

G4972
σφραγίζω
sphragizō
Thayer Definition:
1) to set a seal upon, mark with a seal, to seal
1a) for security: from Satan
1b) since things sealed up are concealed (as the contents of a letter), to hide, keep in silence, keep secret
1c) in order to mark a person or a thing
1c1) to set a mark upon by the impress of a seal or a stamp
1c2) angels are said to be sealed by God
1d) in order to prove, confirm, or attest a thing
1d1) to confirm authenticate, place beyond doubt
1d1a) of a written document
1d1b) to prove one’s testimony to a person that he is what he professes to be
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4973
Citing in TDNT: 7:939, 1127

NOTE: That if the same word is used for Sealing Angels, and Angels get no second chances... That may mean that being Sealed is not as final, as least in the positive sense, as many feel.

I believe it is possible to lose your salvation. But, I do not believe it is easy to do so.

Consider this, if you are getting married til death do you part, and your fiancee starts backing away, even though you gave the ring as a seal...

Do you let them just walk away or do you pursue them for all you're worth?

Also, my God is a jealous God and (therefore) He fights for me, both for my affections and for my safety.

Although, I couldn't find the scripture, it is a true saying that the way of the transgresser is hard...

I believe that to lose one's salvation is not easy like mislaying or misplacing it... But, more like a willful continuous attitude of violent casting away God's Love...

As Billwald said earlier, and I agree, how can anyone who really knows Our Lord even consider such a thing as rejecting Him? To me it is just totally inconcievable. A madness? Or, maybe anger? Not sure....

If my heart is True to Him who redeemed me the issue becomes purely academic. And, my job is not to debate this issue. But, to ensure that I led people to the real jesus and that they really get to know Him who is Life itself... And, He'll take care of the rest...

Mike Sr.

 

[Havensdad]

Your logic here makes no sense. Why would he tell those who were not even standing "take heed lest you fall!" when...they've never gotten to any place where they can fall. For example it'd be like walking up to someone laying on the ground and saying "Hey watch out, you might trip and fall".

You fail to recognize a clear division in scripture. God saves, God keeps. God is both the "author and finisher" of our faith. Scripture says God gives us our faith (Romans 12:3). God gives us repentance (2 Timothy 2:25). It is those who have already been ordained to Eternal life who believe (Acts 13:48). All of the work of salvation is of God, not of us. Yet God works through temporal means to accomplish His ends.

Regardless, the wording is not arguable. He intentionally says "those who think they stand". Perhaps you can trim your Bible to fit your beliefs? Would you like to borrow some scissors?

This letter was written to the Jewish Christians of Palenstine.

The letter was written to Jews. Therefore, the word "brother" is means nothing, as wee see from Acts Paul, Stephen, Peter and others calling Non Christian Jews "brothers". Paul is writing to congregations, which consist of true and false converts, just like we have in the church today. It is horrible hermeneutics to assume that Paul is always writing to true Christians (and a ridiculous assertion, considering his continued elucidation of the Gospel). Hebrews is plainly written to Jews to demonstrate Jesus as Messiah.

Look how the verse is worded:
Hebrews 3:12
“Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.”

It says they have an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
The word 'in' means that they are in that heart of unbelief because they departed from the living God!
The verse could said like this: "Be on your guard, brothers, in case there are any of you that have an evil heart of unbelief because you departed from the living God."

Actually, that is not at all what it says. Note from the ESV, which brings out the Greek tenses and Moods much better>

Heb 3:12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.

Note: Lest there be IN (present tense) you "unbelief" LEADING TO (possible future!) falling away. In other words, those who don't truly believe(and therefore were never saved) can be led to fall away. That then, would assume that the reverse of the statement is true: those who have a heart of belief, CAN'T (or Won't) fall away.

"For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them."

What does this mean to you? If you do not know the way to reighteousness then you are not saved! Its clear - it would be better for you not to be saved ever than for you to be saved but then lose that salvation.

Not true! "Epiginoso" just means to know, or be fully acquainted with. My atheist father is well aware of the gospel: in fact, He knows it better than most Churched people! He just rejects it! If He does not repent, and believe, it will be better for Him to have never known the way of righteousness.....

Incorrect!
They DO have faith because they have heard and gained "the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ". See Romans 10:17 - "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
So they gained the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and through that, according to Romans, they have faith!

Not so. Having a knowledge of Jesus does not save anyone. DEMONS have a knowledge of Jesus Christ. "Pistis"is required for salvation> a true, submissive trust, that is COMPLETELY lacking from the people described.

They had repented because what does it mean to repent? Right from the dictionary definition - to change one's life for the better
What is the better? The better is to have escaped from the entanglements of the world and sins of the world.
So they have escaped the pollutions of the world by repenting - how else could they have escaped except through repentance?

Actually the dictionary definition of "Metanoia" (Repentance) is a change of heart/Mind. It is indeed perfectly possible to "clean up your act", without truly repenting towards God.

These people are never said to have repentance, without which, one cannot be saved.

The Hebrew writer never says they are dogs, he implies they are like dogs returning to their vomit.
Also look at this - "...the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."
It says the sow is washed! The sow is clean, this is symbolically "saved" because the sow is clean from all dirt (sin) but then it says it returns to her "wallowing in the mire."

Nooooo....The sow is OUTWARDLY clean: unfortunately, He is still a Sow (His nature did not change), so He returns to His filth. This is a picture of someone who has "cleaned up his act", but never actually been born again, and given a "heart of flesh".

"For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight"

People can do all the good works they want: without Faith and Repentance, it is just a cleaning up of the outward man. Again, Jesus will tell people on the last day "I Never, at no time, knew you". Not "you messed up and didn't do enough works".

The problem with the weeds, is there nature (they are not wheat). The problem with the seeds, is they are bad seeds. The problem with the tree, is not it's fruit, but what it is. A good heart produces good things> a bad heart produces bad things...

Only God can change hearts. And He doesn't say "Ha ha, I'm taking back the repentance and faith I gave to you!" NNE can say "Jesus is Lord" except through the Holy Spirit.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

The letter was written to Jews. Therefore, the word "brother" is means nothing, as wee see from Acts Paul, Stephen, Peter and others calling Non Christian Jews "brothers". Paul is writing to congregations, which consist of true and false converts, just like we have in the church today. It is horrible hermeneutics to assume that Paul is always writing to true Christians (and a ridiculous assertion, considering his continued elucidation of the Gospel). Hebrews is plainly written to Jews to demonstrate Jesus as Messiah.

Actually, Hebrews is indeed written to Jewish Christians. Check out 3:1 where the author addresses his recipients as "HOLY brethren" and "partakers of the heavenly calling". He urges the readers to consider the Apostle and High Priest of the "our (the writer and the readers') confession, Christ Jesus." These are the same "brethren" the author warns about departing from the living God through a heart of unbelief in verse 12...and you can't "depart" from somebody if you were never with that somebody begin with.

 

[DHK]

It means that Baptism saves you but it's not the water that saves you; it's the act of obedience and the turning of your conscience to God (repentance).
When your Baptized your in water, like a bath, but it's not that cleaning of your fleshly body that saves you.

Baptism never saved anyone. That is a RCC concept. It is also what the Hindus believe. It is a pagan doctrine. What does the Bible say:

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Baptism is a work, as you yourself admitted: "an act of obedience."
That is what a work is. It is an act, something that you do. In baptism there is someone that does the baptizing, and someone that receives the baptism. It is all of man. It is an act of man. It is an act of man done in obedience to God. The result is that the one gettiing baptized gets wet in obedience to God. He doesn't get saved. He gets wet.

Jeremiah's opinion:
Jeremiah 2:22 For though thou wash thee with nitre, and take thee much soap, yet thine iniquity is marked before me, saith the Lord GOD.
--He mocks the concept of baptism in salvation.

The COC does not believe in salvation by faith through grace. They believe that it is by works--particularly the work of baptism.
But it I remember correcty you involve about five different works in order to be saved:

faith + repentance + confession + belief + baptism = salvation.
(I may have one of those wrong)
But there are five of them, right?
And all five are treated as works. It is a works salvation. And that is not Scriptural.

We are saved by faith and faith alone.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

Baptism never saved anyone. That is a RCC concept. It is also what the Hindus believe. It is a pagan doctrine. What does the Bible say:

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Baptism is a work, as you yourself admitted: "an act of obedience."
That is what a work is. It is an act, something that you do. In baptism there is someone that does the baptizing, and someone that receives the baptism. It is all of man. It is an act of man. It is an act of man done in obedience to God. The result is that the one gettiing baptized gets wet in obedience to God. He doesn't get saved. He gets wet.

Jeremiah's opinion:
Jeremiah 2:22 For though thou wash thee with nitre, and take thee much soap, yet thine iniquity is marked before me, saith the Lord GOD.
--He mocks the concept of baptism in salvation.

The COC does not believe in salvation by faith through grace. They believe that it is by works--particularly the work of baptism.
But it I remember correcty you involve about five different works in order to be saved:

faith + repentance + confession + belief + baptism = salvation.
(I may have one of those wrong)
But there are five of them, right?
And all five are treated as works. It is a works salvation. And that is not Scriptural.

We are saved by faith and faith alone.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Great post DHK -- but you know that you are simply :BangHead: with this one.

 

[defenderofthefaith]

Regardless, the wording is not arguable. He intentionally says "those who think they stand".

Yes, he does say those who think they stand.
1 Corinthians 10:12
“Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.”
They think they stand - right?

The greek word for stand here is Histemi and here are some of the definitions of what that literally means:
- continue safe and sound, stand unharmed, to stand
- to make firm, fix establish
- to stop, stand still, to stand immovable, stand firm

Logic wins out on this verse time and time again!
1.) Paul wouldn't tell these people to take heed lest they fall - if it was impossible to fall (because according to you, they never were in grace so they had no place to fall from)
2.) It'd be like walking up to someone laying on the ground and saying "Hey watch out, you might trip and fall".
3.) He says they THINK they stand - they think they stand "firm/immovable/safe and sound"! According to what the literal definition of stand (in the greek form) it does not simply mean stand, it means stand safe and sound, immovable, and Paul is clearly saying those who think they can't fall - take care because they can fall!

The letter was written to Jews. Therefore, the word "brother" is means nothing, as wee see from Acts Paul, Stephen, Peter and others calling Non Christian Jews "brothers". Paul is writing to congregations, which consist of true and false converts, just like we have in the church today. It is horrible hermeneutics to assume that Paul is always writing to true Christians (and a ridiculous assertion, considering his continued elucidation of the Gospel). Hebrews is plainly written to Jews to demonstrate Jesus as Messiah.

I'll quote Doubting Thomas, because he put it better than I can!

Actually, Hebrews is indeed written to Jewish Christians. Check out 3:1 where the author addresses his recipients as "HOLY brethren" and "partakers of the heavenly calling". He urges the readers to consider the Apostle and High Priest of the "our (the writer and the readers') confession, Christ Jesus." These are the same "brethren" the author warns about departing from the living God through a heart of unbelief in verse 12...and you can't "depart" from somebody if you were never with that somebody begin with.

Wonderful use of scriptures Doubting Thomas. :thumbs:

Actually, that is not at all what it says. Note from the ESV, which brings out the Greek tenses and Moods much better>

Heb 3:12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.

Note: Lest there be IN (present tense) you "unbelief" LEADING TO (possible future!) falling away. In other words, those who don't truly believe(and therefore were never saved) can be led to fall away. That then, would assume that the reverse of the statement is true: those who have a heart of belief, CAN'T (or Won't) fall away.

ESV? I'm unfamiliar with that translation, what does it stand for?

Anyways, I'll preferrably like to use the American Standard Version -
Hebrews 3:12
"Take heed, brethren, lest haply there shall be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God:"

But no matter what Translation we use, the ESV says that it leads you to fall away from the living God - so to fall away you were obviously WITH God.

Not true! "Epiginoso" just means to know, or be fully acquainted with. My atheist father is well aware of the gospel: in fact, He knows it better than most Churched people! He just rejects it! If He does not repent, and believe, it will be better for Him to have never known the way of righteousness.....

2 Peter 2:20
"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein and overcome, the last state is become worse with them than the first."

They escaped the defilements of the world THROUGH the knowledge. They just didn't know it! Because just knowing it doesn't mean you've escaped from the sins of the world - you must ACT on that knowledge by believing, repenting, ect...
It is clear they knew it, and acted on that knowledge.

Not so. Having a knowledge of Jesus does not save anyone. DEMONS have a knowledge of Jesus Christ. "Pistis"is required for salvation> a true, submissive trust, that is COMPLETELY lacking from the people described.

See above ^^
Demons believe and tremble - but demons have no way to act on their knowledge.

Actually the dictionary definition of "Metanoia" (Repentance) is a change of heart/Mind. It is indeed perfectly possible to "clean up your act", without truly repenting towards God.

These people are never said to have repentance, without which, one cannot be saved.

Again, you can see above ^^

Nooooo....The sow is OUTWARDLY clean: unfortunately, He is still a Sow (His nature did not change), so He returns to His filth. This is a picture of someone who has "cleaned up his act", but never actually been born again, and given a "heart of flesh".

All men have sinned (Romans 3:23; Romans 5:12) and will be sinners unto death - their nature to be tempted and to sin nevers changes; it's their will to to strive to do righteousness to the best of their ability, but their original nature to sin never leaves them.

"For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight"

What verse is this?

People can do all the good works they want: without Faith and Repentance, it is just a cleaning up of the outward man. Again, Jesus will tell people on the last day "I Never, at no time, knew you". Not "you messed up and didn't do enough works".

True, but he did say
"And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."

And he said this referring to works they had done!

Only God can change hearts. And He doesn't say "Ha ha, I'm taking back the repentance and faith I gave to you!" NNE can say "Jesus is Lord" except through the Holy Spirit.

God doesn't change your heart, it's your true repentance that changes your heart! God doesn't come in and change your heart for you - you must do that yourself or else you do not have true faith!
God doesn't take it back - you GIVE IT BACK. Countless people don't realize that I am NOT saying that God takes away your Salvation - you give your Salvation back.

 

[defenderofthefaith]

Regardless, the wording is not arguable. He intentionally says "those who think they stand".

Yes, he does say those who think they stand.
1 Corinthians 10:12
“Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.”
They think they stand - right?

The greek word for stand here is Histemi and here are some of the definitions of what that literally means:
- continue safe and sound, stand unharmed, to stand
- to make firm, fix establish
- to stop, stand still, to stand immovable, stand firm

Logic wins out on this verse time and time again!
1.) Paul wouldn't tell these people to take heed lest they fall - if it was impossible to fall (because according to you, they never were in grace so they had no place to fall from)
2.) It'd be like walking up to someone laying on the ground and saying "Hey watch out, you might trip and fall".
3.) He says they THINK they stand - they think they stand "firm/immovable/safe and sound"! According to what the literal definition of stand (in the greek form) it does not simply mean stand, it means stand safe and sound, immovable, and Paul is clearly saying those who think they can't fall - take care because they can fall!

The letter was written to Jews. Therefore, the word "brother" is means nothing, as wee see from Acts Paul, Stephen, Peter and others calling Non Christian Jews "brothers". Paul is writing to congregations, which consist of true and false converts, just like we have in the church today. It is horrible hermeneutics to assume that Paul is always writing to true Christians (and a ridiculous assertion, considering his continued elucidation of the Gospel). Hebrews is plainly written to Jews to demonstrate Jesus as Messiah.

I'll quote Doubting Thomas, because he put it better than I can!

Actually, Hebrews is indeed written to Jewish Christians. Check out 3:1 where the author addresses his recipients as "HOLY brethren" and "partakers of the heavenly calling". He urges the readers to consider the Apostle and High Priest of the "our (the writer and the readers') confession, Christ Jesus." These are the same "brethren" the author warns about departing from the living God through a heart of unbelief in verse 12...and you can't "depart" from somebody if you were never with that somebody begin with.

Wonderful use of scriptures Doubting Thomas. :thumbs:

Actually, that is not at all what it says. Note from the ESV, which brings out the Greek tenses and Moods much better>

Heb 3:12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.

Note: Lest there be IN (present tense) you "unbelief" LEADING TO (possible future!) falling away. In other words, those who don't truly believe(and therefore were never saved) can be led to fall away. That then, would assume that the reverse of the statement is true: those who have a heart of belief, CAN'T (or Won't) fall away.

ESV? I'm unfamiliar with that translation, what does it stand for?

Anyways, I'll preferrably like to use the American Standard Version -
Hebrews 3:12
"Take heed, brethren, lest haply there shall be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God:"

But no matter what Translation we use, the ESV says that it leads you to fall away from the living God - so to fall away you were obviously WITH God.

Not true! "Epiginoso" just means to know, or be fully acquainted with. My atheist father is well aware of the gospel: in fact, He knows it better than most Churched people! He just rejects it! If He does not repent, and believe, it will be better for Him to have never known the way of righteousness.....

2 Peter 2:20
"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein and overcome, the last state is become worse with them than the first."

They escaped the defilements of the world THROUGH the knowledge. They just didn't know it! Because just knowing it doesn't mean you've escaped from the sins of the world - you must ACT on that knowledge by believing, repenting, ect...
It is clear they knew it, and acted on that knowledge.

Not so. Having a knowledge of Jesus does not save anyone. DEMONS have a knowledge of Jesus Christ. "Pistis"is required for salvation> a true, submissive trust, that is COMPLETELY lacking from the people described.

See above ^^
Demons believe and tremble - but demons have no way to act on their knowledge.

Actually the dictionary definition of "Metanoia" (Repentance) is a change of heart/Mind. It is indeed perfectly possible to "clean up your act", without truly repenting towards God.

These people are never said to have repentance, without which, one cannot be saved.

Again, you can see above ^^

Nooooo....The sow is OUTWARDLY clean: unfortunately, He is still a Sow (His nature did not change), so He returns to His filth. This is a picture of someone who has "cleaned up his act", but never actually been born again, and given a "heart of flesh".

All men have sinned (Romans 3:23; Romans 5:12) and will be sinners unto death - their nature to be tempted and to sin nevers changes; it's their will to to strive to do righteousness to the best of their ability, but their original nature to sin never leaves them.

"For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight"

What verse is this?

People can do all the good works they want: without Faith and Repentance, it is just a cleaning up of the outward man. Again, Jesus will tell people on the last day "I Never, at no time, knew you". Not "you messed up and didn't do enough works".

True, but he did say
"And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."

And he said this referring to works they had done!

Only God can change hearts. And He doesn't say "Ha ha, I'm taking back the repentance and faith I gave to you!" NNE can say "Jesus is Lord" except through the Holy Spirit.

God doesn't change your heart, it's your true repentance that changes your heart! God doesn't come in and change your heart for you - you must do that yourself or else you do not have true faith!
God doesn't take it back - you GIVE IT BACK. Countless people don't realize that I am NOT saying that God takes away your Salvation - you give your Salvation back.

 

[Marcia]

Oh dear, soo many responses and so little time.
I'll try my best to respond to each and every one of you, but I cannot gurantee that I'll get to every single one of you and personally reply to you.


The word "fall" here is piptō and it means (source: Greek lexicon) :
- to descend from a higher place to a lower
- to fall (either from or upon)
- to fall out, fall from i.e. shall perish or be lost
- to fall from a state of uprightness
- to perish, i.e come to an end, disappear, cease
- to lose authority, no longer have force
- to fail of participating in, miss a share in

and the word "fall" here can also be used in Galatians 5:4
“Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.”

In 1 Corinthians 10:1-13 Paul has just spoken of exerting himself to the utmost, lest he should be a Castaway (9:27). That reminded him of the same danger to Christians generally. They had better take their Religion seriously. Most of those who were delivered out of Egypt never got to Promised Land. The Temptations that caused them to Fall by the wayside were very much the same temptations that the Corinthians were facing (7-8), Lustful Indulgence. If they would strive wholeheartedly, with resolute determination, to overcome, as he was doing (9:25-27), then they would not fall from their saved state.

This was about falling into temptation and through temptations and sin - falling from grace.

No, it's not about falling from grace. You are equating falling into temptation with falling from grace, that is not what the text states. It's about falling into temptation, not falling away from grace.

Those who did not enter the Promised Land did not do so not because of falling into temptation but because of unbelief:
So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief. Heb. 3.19

God will give you the gift of Salvation. ("...I give eternal life to them...")
You must accept that gift of Salvation.
Accept that gift and you will not perish ("...they will never perish..."
Decide to return to your old man, you return that gift (Salvation).
No man can return that gift (Salvation) back for you - you do that yourself. ("...no one will snatch them out of My hand...")

That's not what Jn 10.28 says. You are adding to the text. Jesus says no one can snatch those given eternal life out of his hand - no one!

Where does it say that this seal is "indestructible" or even that this seal is "enternal security" for your salvation?

It says it here:

2 Corinthians 1:22
who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.
Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption


Notice the word 'pledge' on 2 Cor. 1.22. That means a promise, a certainty. A done deal.

The word "promise" is in the Eph. 1.13. That's God's promise - it cannot be broken.

Eph. 4.30 has "sealed for the day of redemption." That means you are sealed until the day of redemption. You can't unseal that seal.

And Eph. 1:14 states:
who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

There's that word "pledge" again! It's a promise from God - can never be broken or lost.

 

[Marcia]

Additionally:
The apostle John writes, "This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life" (I John 2:25) and he assures us again in 1 John 5:11: "And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son."

Notice that the words here say this is a promise from God of eternal life that has already been given to us, not "will be given," and not "will be given if such-and-such happens." God is faithful (1 Cor. 10:13, 2 Cor. 1:18, 1 Thess. 5:24, 2 Thess. 3:3, 2 Tim. 2:13, 1 John 1:9), and His word is true (John 17:17). When we believe, we have (present tense) eternal life: ""He who believes in the Son has eternal life" (John 3:36a).

 

[Bible-boy]

Since my salvation is based upon my belief, and my continued belief and righteous living,

then it only makes sense doesn't it that any future unbelief (or unrighteous living) will cause my salvation to cease?

This would be a true and valid statement if your first premiss that salvation is based upon your belief/continued belief were correct. However, it is incorrect. Likewise, your second premiss that salvation is based upon righteous living is also incorrect.

The answer to your incorrect first premiss is that salvation is based solely in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross (John 19:30; Acts 4:12; Rom. 1:16, 10:9-10).

The answer to your second incorrect premiss is that all our righteousness is like filthy rags to God (Isa. 64:6).

Therefore, your conclusion that any future unbelief or unrighteous living will result in the loss of your salvation is incorrect.

 

[Zenas]

The answer to your incorrect first premiss is that salvation is based solely in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross (John 19:30; Acts 4:12; Rom. 1:16, 10:9-10)

Although salvation is based on the finished work of Jesus Christ, it can't stop there. You have to actually do something to be saved, otherwise everyone would go go Heaven and no one would go to Hell. You can denigrate works all day long but in the end, the Christian has to do something to set himself apart from the unsaved person.

 

[Bible-boy]

Although salvation is based on the finished work of Jesus Christ, it can't stop there. You have to actually do something to be saved, otherwise everyone would go go Heaven and no one would go to Hell. You can denigrate works all day long but in the end, the Christian has to do something to set himself apart from the unsaved person.

Nope. According to Eph. 2:8-9 there is nothing anyone can do to earn salvation, it is the free gift of God, not of works, least any man should boast (i.e. that he had done something to earn salvation). Likewise, Havensdad has already pointed out that we are saved by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8) and that it is God who supplies us with that faith in the first place (Rom. 12:3).

Now, I agree that one must confess with one's mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in one's heart that God raised Him from the dead (Rom. 10:9-10) and that this implies "doing something" on our part. However, the distinction here is that the basis or guarantee of Salvation is in Christ's finished work on the cross and not in our confessing/believing (meaning having the faith that God gave us in the first place). Everyone will not go to Heaven because everyone will not confess/believe either because they willingly choose to reject Christ or ignore the faith that God has supplied. I don't want to turn this thread into a C vs. A debate. So if you feel like going down that road please start a new thread on that topic. Keep this thread on the topic of the OP.

 

[defenderofthefaith]

See posts below....
some reason is posted twice.
Sorry.
See below...

 

[defenderofthefaith]

No, it's not about falling from grace.

Even if you want to argue that it is not about "falling from grace" then how do you explain this verse -

Galatians 5:4
"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."

You are equating falling into temptation with falling from grace, that is not what the text states. It's about falling into temptation, not falling away from grace.

Argue as you may about 1 Corinthians 10:12 take a look at Galatians.

Galatians 5:4
"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."

They have fallen.
They have fallen from?
They have fallen from somewhere.
They have fallen from grace.

The word "grace" (the place they had fallen from) is charis and a direct difinition of charis is:
- of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues
- the spiritual condition of one governed by the power of divine grace
(word for word definition)

I agree that one can take 1 Corinthians 10:12 as falling from temptation - but answer me this question - why would Paul warn the Corinthians about falling into temptation if no matter how much they sinned - they could never loose their salvation (EVER).
Why would 1 Corinthians 10:13 say:
"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."
Why would God aid us like this if it didn't matter how much we sinned and were tempted as long as we were saved?

That's not what Jn 10.28 says. You are adding to the text. Jesus says no one can snatch those given eternal life out of his hand - no one!

Again! No man can take you out of God's hand - but you can take yourself out of Gods hand!

Notice the word 'pledge' on 2 Cor. 1.22. That means a promise, a certainty. A done deal.

I do not know where your getting the word "pledge" but 2 Corinthians 1:22 says:
"Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."
The only word that I think has been translated differently in my version (KJV) and your version is "earnest" and "pledge".
The original Greek word is arrabōn and the definition for this is:
- money which in purchases is given as a pledge or downpayment that the full amount will subsequently be paid

You say it means a "promise" and "a done deal" which it is a done deal - but the word in this verse means that the price for our Salvation will be fully paid (with Christ's blood!).

The word "promise" is in the Eph. 1.13. That's God's promise - it cannot be broken.

Ephesians 1:13
"In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"

The word promise here is epaggelia which means:
- the act of promising, a promise given or to be given
- a promised good or blessing

Again, the word seal means "marked" and the promise is promise of a Heavenly home.
God promises us a heavenly home - but God doesn't force us to obey what he has promised us. God has promised us enternal life IF WE DO HIS WILL - but if we do not want to do his will and be faithful unto death (Rev. 2:10) then we do not recieve that promise.

Eph. 4.30 has "sealed for the day of redemption." That means you are sealed until the day of redemption. You can't unseal that seal.

Yes, you are marked for the day of redemption - but where do you get the idea that you can't unseal that seal?

And Eph. 1:14 states:
who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

There's that word "pledge" again! It's a promise from God - can never be broken or lost.

See my response to the word "pledge" above (^^)

 

[BobRyan]

I think the debate regarding eternal security is one of the most interesting of all because I think there are valid scriptural arguments to be made both ways. And it splits the "Bible-alone" groups right down the middle as far as I can tell.

I tend to believe that you can lose your salvation, and that the verses used by those who support osas are speaking to the faithfulness of God in our salvation.

And hi, Ann.:wavey:

Good thinking.

But the new poster left out my favorite in their list -- Matt 18 "forgiveness revoked".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, he does say those who think they stand.
1 Corinthians 10:12
“Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.”
They think they stand - right?

The greek word for stand here is Histemi and here are some of the definitions of what that literally means:
- continue safe and sound, stand unharmed, to stand
- to make firm, fix establish
- to stop, stand still, to stand immovable, stand firm

Logic wins out on this verse time and time again!
1.) Paul wouldn't tell these people to take heed lest they fall - if it was impossible to fall (because according to you, they never were in grace so they had no place to fall from)
2.) It'd be like walking up to someone laying on the ground and saying "Hey watch out, you might trip and fall".
3.) He says they THINK they stand - they think they stand "firm/immovable/safe and sound"! According to what the literal definition of stand (in the greek form) it does not simply mean stand, it means stand safe and sound, immovable, and Paul is clearly saying those who think they can't fall - take care because they can fall!

indeed the Bible never commands the lost to "persevere firmly in being lost" as if they should fear the idea of "falling from being lost - because then they would suffer the unhappy result of being saved".

in Christ,

Bob