Can you lose your salvation?

[defenderofthefaith]

It would be impossible for Christ to die on the cross again. That's why it's impossible to lose one's salvation.

Yes, it would be impossible for Christ to die on the cross again - but point out to me where I said that was needed?

 

[Bible-boy]

I agree that one can take 1 Corinthians 10:12 as falling from temptation - but answer me this question - why would Paul warn the Corinthians about falling into temptation if no matter how much they sinned - they could never loose their salvation (EVER).
Why would 1 Corinthians 10:13 say:
"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."
Why would God aid us like this if it didn't matter how much we sinned and were tempted as long as we were saved?

He is telling us that He always provides us with a way out so as to avoid temptation (1 Cor. 10:13). Likewise, He is warning us that if we worship idols (i.e. demons) He is a jealous God and will not share our worship (1 Cor. 10:14-22). Therefore, if we get mixed up in such things He can/will remove us from it through physical death (1 Cor. 10:1-12). Read the entire chapter 10 and let the context of the material inform and guide your understanding of specific verses.

Again! No man can take you out of God's hand - but you can take yourself out of Gods hand!

The text says that no one can take you out of His hand (John 10:28). You are a someone. Therefore, you can not remove yourself from His hand. Likewise, I am a someone. Therefore, I can not remove myself from His hand.

 

[Marcia]

Even if you want to argue that it is not about "falling from grace" then how do you explain this verse -

Galatians 5:4
"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."



Argue as you may about 1 Corinthians 10:12 take a look at Galatians.

Galatians 5:4
"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."

They have fallen.
They have fallen from?
They have fallen from somewhere.
They have fallen from grace.

The word "grace" (the place they had fallen from) is charis and a direct difinition of charis is:
- of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues
- the spiritual condition of one governed by the power of divine grace
(word for word definition)

The book of Galatians is about those who thought they could be justified by works or by the law. The whole book argues that we are saved only by grace. It's a contrast, and this is what that verse is pointing out - they were putting themselves outside of grace by trying to be justified by the law.

Scripture must always be compared with scripture.

The NET Bible has:
You who are trying to be declared righteous by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

They put themselves outside of the scope of grace by trying to be justified by the law.

I agree that one can take 1 Corinthians 10:12 as falling from temptation - but answer me this question - why would Paul warn the Corinthians about falling into temptation if no matter how much they sinned - they could never loose their salvation (EVER).
Why would 1 Corinthians 10:13 say:
"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."
Why would God aid us like this if it didn't matter how much we sinned and were tempted as long as we were saved?

Just because we can't lose our salvation does not mean it doesn't matter to God if we sin! Good gracious! Where did you get that idea? Of course, God cares if we sin! You have a very wrong idea about what assurance of salvation is - it does not mean it's okay to sin. God is telling us here that we can avoid sin - should avoid it. We are being conformed to the image of Christ but we also must yield to the Holy Spirit and grow in Christ.

I do not know where your getting the word "pledge" but 2 Corinthians 1:22 says:
"Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."
The only word that I think has been translated differently in my version (KJV) and your version is "earnest" and "pledge".
The original Greek word is arrabōn and the definition for this is:
- money which in purchases is given as a pledge or downpayment that the full amount will subsequently be paid

You say it means a "promise" and "a done deal" which it is a done deal - but the word in this verse means that the price for our Salvation will be fully paid (with Christ's blood!).

The word "pledge" is in the NASB, which is what I quoted. A down payment and pledge made by God will be fulfilled based on God, not on us. Our salvation was fully paid on the cross! When we believe, we are saved and justified.

Ephesians 1:13
"In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"

The word promise here is epaggelia which means:
- the act of promising, a promise given or to be given
- a promised good or blessing

Again, the word seal means "marked" and the promise is promise of a Heavenly home.
God promises us a heavenly home - but God doesn't force us to obey what he has promised us.

I think you are agreeing it's a promise. And a promise is a promise - it's not conditional here.

God has promised us enternal life IF WE DO HIS WILL - but if we do not want to do his will and be faithful unto death (Rev. 2:10) then we do not recieve that promise.

So this would make salvation dependent on works. Right here, you are arguing for a works salvation, something the whole Bible argues against.

Rev 2.10 is not saying someone can lose their salvation.

Yes, you are marked for the day of redemption - but where do you get the idea that you can't unseal that seal?

From the Bible. There is nowhere it says we can unseal the seal.

 

[BobRyan]

Adam did not need to be "uncreated" to become lost.

The unfaithful servant of Matt 18 does not "make himself unborn" to receive forgiveness revoked.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Bible-boy]

Adam did not need to be "uncreated" to become lost.

The unfaithful servant of Matt 18 does not "make himself unborn" to receive forgiveness revoked.

in Christ,

Bob

I'm quite sure what you mean with respect to Adam.

However, it appears that your understanding of Matt. 18:15-20 is in error.

In Matt. 18:15-20 the goal of every step of the process of church discipline is to see the sinning brother or sister repent and be reconciled to Chirst first, to the offended believer second, and to the church body as a whole third. If the one in sin refuses to repent and be reconciled through all the steps of the process what does the text say we are to do? It says we are to treat them as an unbeliever (heathen and a tax collector). Meaning that they have proven by their hard heartedness and unwillingness to repent that they were never saved in the first place. This results in their being denied to take part in the communion of the saints around the Lord's table. However, how are we to respond to unbelievers? We witness to them and share the gospel with them and minister to them in an attempt to win them to Christ. The final phase of the process of church discipline is meant to expose the tares that are among the wheat (Matt. 13:24-30, 36-43) as Havensdad has pointed out.

 

[BobRyan]

In Matt 18 - the King says to the unforgiving servant "I FORGAVE you ALL that debt" and then argues that in gratitude for the reality of the REAL forigveness he had received -- he should then have forgiven the much smaller debt owed him by his fellow servant.

The King does not "Well you know -- since in reality I never really forgave you your debt - I can see why you had no basis from which to forgive your fellow servant as if in gratitude for what I had done for you. The truth is you were simply not forgiven your fellow servant just as I did not really fortive you".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[carpro]

Can you lose your salvation?
I believe you can and this is my arguement....

No. I can't lose my salvation.

If you have truly been saved, I don't believe you can lose yours either.

It seems I may have more faith in your salvation than you do.

Pity.

 

[DHK]

Some common sense is needed when studying the Scripture.

How can you lose that which is eternal.
If "eternal" is lost it is no longer eternal, it is temporary, and the one who said he gave "eternal" is now a liar for he only gave temporary.

We need to look at basic definitions of words, and the promises of God.
It is impossible to lose that which is eternal unless you deny the meaning of eternal, change the meaning of eternal, or call the one who promised it a liar. Which do you choose?

John 10:27-30 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

There are two important things in context of John 10:27-30, that Christ have the power to hold our salvation that we must meet:

1. "hear" - vs. 27

2. "follow" - vs. 27

A person who is still listening and obey God's Word, therefore, Christ is continue hold our salvation LONG as we follow him. Unless if we stopped listening God's Word, and stop follow Christ, and turn away return back to world again. Then, Christ would loose us out of his hand. Christ cannot force us to stay follow him all the time. That is our freewill decision and choice. If we decide to stop listen God's Word, and not want to follow Christ, decide back to world again, then Christ allows us to be loose away out of his hand, and we could lose again.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[OldRegular]

Ann:
Hi, my board name is Defender of the Faith - and that is what I plan to do. Defend the Faith.

If you'd like, I could post many of the verses used by the followers of the "once saved, always saved" doctrine and explain how their misinterepting these verses.

I am afraid you are not Defending the Faith very well. Consider the following and explain them away if you can.

Perseverance or Security of the True Believer

The doctrine of the ‘Perseverance of the Saints’ or the ‘Security of the True Believer’ is one that is cherished by many Christians but unfortunately is rejected by many denominations. I am not sure which term most accurately expresses the doctrine. It is certain that Saints will not be able to persevere without the active support of God. The statement from the 1677 Baptist Confession of Faith [Lumpkin, page 272] expresses both thoughts as shown in the following excerpt:

“Those whom God hath accepted in the Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by His Spirit, and given the precious faith of His elect unto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and calling of God are without repentance, (whence He still begets and nourishish them in Faith, Repentance, Love, Joy, Hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality).”

Those whom God has accepted in the Beloved and has effectually called and sanctified by His spirit, and given the precious faith of His elect, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace but they will certainly persevere in that state until the end and be eternally saved.

This is because the gifts and calling of God are without repentance [He will never change His mind.] and therefore He continues to beget [create] and nourish them in faith, repentance, love, joy, hope, and all the graces of the Spirit which lead to immortality.

Some Christians use the term ‘once saved, always saved’ to express the doctrine of ‘Perseverance of the Saints’ or ‘Security of the Believer’. This expression, though true, trivializes the idea that ‘true believers’ or Saints will persevere. One extreme of this viewpoint is that people join a church then for the remainder of their life show no evidence that they are a ‘new creation in Jesus Christ’ [2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 2:10] and yet be a child of God. Such a view is directly contrary to the clear teaching of Scripture [1 John 1:3-6] and may be a consequence of the belief that ‘saving faith’ is mere intellectual assent to the fact of the birth, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. John F. MacArthur in his book Ashamed of the Gospel addresses the fallacy of this reasoning, showing that if Jesus Christ is not one’s Lord He is not their Savior.

Scripture which show that true believers are kept eternally secure by the power of God are as follows:

John 6:35-40, KJV
35. And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
44. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


John 10:27-30, KJV
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.
30. I and [my] Father are one.

Romans 8:28-30, KJV
28. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The above passages clearly prove that that believers are kept eternally secure by the power of God. In this passage Paul is talking about those who are the predestinate. Those He predestinated He called, consistent with John 6:37 & 44 above. Those He called and justified he also glorified, consistent with John 10:28 and John 6:39, 40, & 44 above.

Incidentally, belief that one can lose their salvation is in reality a works salvation. God initially saved me but from then own I must work to keep it.

 

[ray Marshall]

No. I can't lose my salvation.

If you have truly been saved, I don't believe you can lose yours either.

It seems I may have more faith in your salvation than you do.

Pity.

I also don't believe that you can lose your salvation but as David prayed to GOD, Restore to me the joy of thy salvation. So it seems that you can't lose your salvation, but you can lose the joy of your salvation.

 

[DHK]

There are two important things in context of John 10:27-30, that Christ have the power to hold our salvation that we must meet:

1. "hear" - vs. 27

2. "follow" - vs. 27

A person who is still listening and obey God's Word, therefore, Christ is continue hold our salvation LONG as we follow him. Unless if we stopped listening God's Word, and stop follow Christ, and turn away return back to world again. Then, Christ would loose us out of his hand. Christ cannot force us to stay follow him all the time. That is our freewill decision and choice. If we decide to stop listen God's Word, and not want to follow Christ, decide back to world again, then Christ allows us to be loose away out of his hand, and we could lose again.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Did you make your own translation of this passage? There are no conditions placed here.
Jesus plainly said: My sheep hear my voice and they follow me.
Where do you get IF they hear, or IF they follow. Have you made your own translation, because it isn't here. Jesus clearly says that His sheep DO follow Him; they ARE given eternal life; they SHALL never perish. Those are very strong statements/ promises. To deny them is to deny what Christ has said here.
No man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand
No man, no thing, no devil, nothing!!

We are eternally secured in the hands of God--not eternally "insecure," as some would have us to believe.

 

[ray Marshall]

I also don't believe that you can lose your salvation but as David prayed to GOD, Restore to me the joy of thy salvation. So it seems that you can't lose your salvation, but you can lose the joy of your salvation.

to some of your remark I will agree. Is salvation's meaning, SAVED?

 

[webdog]

You replied to yourself...I would hope you agree with all of it :laugh:

 

[Bible-boy]

There are two important things in context of John 10:27-30, that Christ have the power to hold our salvation that we must meet:

1. "hear" - vs. 27

2. "follow" - vs. 27

A person who is still listening and obey God's Word, therefore, Christ is continue hold our salvation LONG as we follow him. Unless if we stopped listening God's Word, and stop follow Christ, and turn away return back to world again. Then, Christ would loose us out of his hand. Christ cannot force us to stay follow him all the time. That is our freewill decision and choice. If we decide to stop listen God's Word, and not want to follow Christ, decide back to world again, then Christ allows us to be loose away out of his hand, and we could lose again.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Wrong...

The text says that no one can snatch us out of His hand. I am a someone. Therefore, I cannot remove myself from His hand. You are a someone. Therefore, you cannot remove yourself from His hand. Additionally, as Brother DHK has pointed out there are no conditions (as you imply) in the text.

 

[Nelsen]

You can't lose your salvation

You eighter have a know so salvation or a hope so salvation!
The former is the salvation offered in God's word and anyone who teaches otherwise is a heritic.

For me to become unsaved several things must take place.
First you would have to go to the deepest sea and find my sin bcause the Bible says my sins have been cast into the deepest sea and then you would have to get God to remeber them because God says He remembers them no more.
Then you'd have to go east until east is east no more and west until west is west no more.Because God says my sins are forgiven as far as the east is to the west.
Then you would have to pry me out of both the Fathers and the Sons hand because the Word says I am in both the Father and Sons Hand and all that are in His hand are secure because no man not any man can pluck me out.
Then you would have to break the seal of the Holy Spirit.

1Pet.1:4;Rom.8:34;Rom.4:5-8;Jn.3:15-18;Eph.1:13 and 4:30
These are just name a few

Any form of losing your salvation is a works doctrine and straight from the pits of hell!!!!This includes those false teachings that you must be baptised,repent or do good works in order to be saved.

I'll pay anyone $10,000 to prove this wrong

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

This thread is at eight pages now. I have not read a word of it as I am typing because just the sight of its title meant the end of my patience. I cannot understand that such a question could be asked in the first place.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

You eighter have a know so salvation or a hope so salvation!
The former is the salvation offered in God's word and anyone who teaches otherwise is a heritic.

For me to become unsaved several things must take place.
First you would have to go to the deepest sea and find my sin bcause the Bible says my sins have been cast into the deepest sea and then you would have to get God to remeber them because God says He remembers them no more.
Then you'd have to go east until east is east no more and west until west is west no more.Because God says my sins are forgiven as far as the east is to the west.
Then you would have to pry me out of both the Fathers and the Sons hand because the Word says I am in both the Father and Sons Hand and all that are in His hand are secure because no man not any man can pluck me out.
Then you would have to break the seal of the Holy Spirit.

1Pet.1:4;Rom.8:34;Rom.4:5-8;Jn.3:15-18;Eph.1:13 and 4:30
These are just name a few

Any form of losing your salvation is a works doctrine and straight from the pits of hell!!!!This includes those false teachings that you must be baptised,repent or do good works in order to be saved.

I'll pay anyone $10,000 to prove this wrong

GE:
You have spoken the Gospel! God be with you!

PS
I need that $10000 badly. Just cannot think of a way to lay claim to it! Anybody who could help - we go fifty fifty, OK?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Strange how just the sound of money starts off in one's mind, scheming! But you will have to add a bit more to reach the $1,000,000 - that's it: one million dollars, a certain great SDA gauranteed anyone who can show the word 'sabbath' shows any day other than the Seventh Day Sabbath. I wonder if he still gaurantees it? Would like to have a go at that one!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

1 Corinthians 10:12 {KJV}
“Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.”

Marcia: 1 Cor 10.12 has nothing to do with losing salvation; it's about fallling into temptation.

HP: Where is the evidence for your position? Are you going to reason in a circle and or beg the question?