Can you prove by Scripture

[AustinC]

Here are the passages to which MB references. You decide if he has discerned the meaning from these passages.

1 Timothy 2:1-7
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
2 Peter 3:1-13
This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you,not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
Ezekiel 18:2-32
“What do you mean by repeating this proverb concerning the land of Israel, ‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge’? As I live, declares the Lord God, this proverb shall no more be used by you in Israel. Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die. “If a man is righteous and does what is just and right— if he does not eat upon the mountains or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, does not defile his neighbor’s wife or approach a woman in her time of menstrual impurity, does not oppress anyone, but restores to the debtor his pledge, commits no robbery, gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with a garment, does not lend at interest or take any profit, withholds his hand from injustice, executes true justice between man and man, walks in my statutes, and keeps my rules by acting faithfully—he is righteous; he shall surely live, declares the Lord God. “If he fathers a son who is violent, a shedder of blood, who does any of these things (though he himself did none of these things), who even eats upon the mountains, defiles his neighbor’s wife, oppresses the poor and needy, commits robbery, does not restore the pledge, lifts up his eyes to the idols, commits abomination, lends at interest, and takes profit; shall he then live? He shall not live. He has done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon himself. “Now suppose this man fathers a son who sees all the sins that his father has done; he sees, and does not do likewise: he does not eat upon the mountains or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, does not defile his neighbor’s wife, does not oppress anyone, exacts no pledge, commits no robbery, but gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with a garment, withholds his hand from iniquity, takes no interest or profit, obeys my rules, and walks in my statutes; he shall not die for his father’s iniquity; he shall surely live. As for his father, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother, and did what is not good among his people, behold, he shall die for his iniquity. “Yet you say, ‘Why should not the son suffer for the iniquity of the father?’ When the son has done what is just and right, and has been careful to observe all my statutes, he shall surely live. The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. “But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live. Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live? But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die. “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear now, O house of Israel: Is my way not just? Is it not your ways that are not just? When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice, he shall die for it; for the injustice that he has done he shall die. Again, when a wicked person turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he shall save his life. Because he considered and turned away from all the transgressions that he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ O house of Israel, are my ways not just? Is it not your ways that are not just? “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, declares the Lord God. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin. Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord God; so turn, and live.”

John 12:27-43
“Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? But for this purpose I have come to this hour. Father, glorify your name.” Then a voice came from heaven: “I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again.” The crowd that stood there and heard it said that it had thundered. Others said, “An angel has spoken to him.” Jesus answered, “This voice has come for your sake, not mine. Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die. So the crowd answered him, “We have heard from the Law that the Christ remains forever. How can you say that the Son of Man must be lifted up? Who is this Son of Man?” So Jesus said to them, “The light is among you for a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you. The one who walks in the darkness does not know where he is going. While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.” When Jesus had said these things, he departed and hid himself from them. Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him, so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: “Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said, “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.” Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him. Nevertheless, many even of the authorities believed in him, but for fear of the Pharisees they did not confess it, so that they would not be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the glory that comes from man more than the glory that comes from God.

 

[agedman]

Consider the following argument

If the doctrine of Unconditional Election is true:

Then God prefers that not all be saved.

But the Bible says that God prefers that all be saved
(1Ti_2:3-4, 2Pe_3:9, Eze_18:23, Eze_18:32, Joh_12:32).

Therefore, the doctrine of Unconditional Election must be false.

God is the one who ultimately chooses and He chooses to save believers who are in union with His elect mediator, Jesus Christ.

Consider this, if election / predestination is all settled before creation then salvation is like a lottery. You have to have your number come up or you are lost before you are born. What most people that hold this view will not admit is that even if you think you are one of the elect you can never be sure.

I'm pretty sure that John did not dispute his record found in John 6:

35Jesus answered, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to Me will never hunger, and whoever believes in Me will never thirst. 36But as I stated, you have seen Me and still you do not believe. 37Everyone the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but to do the will of Him who sent Me. 39And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For it is My Father’s will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

41At this, the Jews began to grumble about Jesus because He had said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42They were asking, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How then can He say, ‘I have come down from heaven?’”

43“Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus replied. 44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from Him comes to Me— 46not that anyone has seen the Father except the One who is from God; only He has seen the Father. 47Truly, truly, I tell you, he who believes has eternal life.​

 

[MB]

I'm pretty sure that John did not dispute his record found in John 6:

35Jesus answered, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to Me will never hunger, and whoever believes in Me will never thirst. 36But as I stated, you have seen Me and still you do not believe. 37Everyone the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but to do the will of Him who sent Me. 39And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For it is My Father’s will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

41At this, the Jews began to grumble about Jesus because He had said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42They were asking, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How then can He say, ‘I have come down from heaven?’”

43“Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus replied. 44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from Him comes to Me— 46not that anyone has seen the Father except the One who is from God; only He has seen the Father. 47Truly, truly, I tell you, he who believes has eternal life.​

God also said;
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Should we assume that all men are drawn and are saved?
After all the Bible does say He will draw all men to him self So which is true Jn 6 or JN 12 Do they contradict each other?
MB

 

[agedman]

Consider the following argument

If the doctrine of Unconditional Election is true:

Then God prefers that not all be saved.

But the Bible says that God prefers that all be saved
(1Ti_2:3-4, 2Pe_3:9, Eze_18:23, Eze_18:32, Joh_12:32).

Therefore, the doctrine of Unconditional Election must be false.

God is the one who ultimately chooses and He chooses to save believers who are in union with His elect mediator, Jesus Christ.

Consider this, if election / predestination is all settled before creation then salvation is like a lottery. You have to have your number come up or you are lost before you are born. What most people that hold this view will not admit is that even if you think you are one of the elect you can never be sure.

God also said;
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Should we assume that all men are drawn and are saved?
After all the Bible does say He will draw all men to him self So which is true Jn 6 or JN 12 Do they contradict each other?
MB

The appeal to the lost is not conditional. However, no one responds to the appeal, just as the Christ stated concerning Jerusalem and how many times He sent them prophets.

What some hold as a general appeal, however, does not present that folks have the ability to respond anymore than the pharaoh of Egypt could do other than reject the appeals of Moses after God confirmed his hard heart.

Folks are already condemned, they cannot appeal the sentence of death, for all have sinned.

However, the God of Salvation can at His pleasure take from the many of slave market of sin and death and redeem those of His choice. He then will remove those persons from any capacity to be sold again into the slavery and embrace them as adopted children.

That is not only Calvinist thinking but those that hold an Armenian view, too.

Certainly, there is an emotional draw when one looks at the cross, just as there is when the nativity is presented. But such a draw does not indicate the work of the Holy Spirit is involved, for there must be the Word of God not seen but heard.

Taking from your reference of John 12, the passage also says this:

37Although Jesus had performed so many signs in their presence, they still did not believe in Him.

38This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:

“Lord, who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”​

39For this reason they were unable to believe.
For again, Isaiah says:

40“He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their hearts,
so that they cannot see with their eyes,
and understand with their hearts,
and turn, and I would heal them.”​

41Isaiah said these things because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about Him.

42Nevertheless, many of the leaders believed in Him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him,
for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue.
43For they loved praise from men more than praise from God.​

This is an example in action that I have also mentioned to @Van concerning his use of Matthew. The power of the temple (synagogue) is not preventing salvation but the fear of loosing the perceived and traditional law approach to God did and still does present a certain blindness and hardness of hearing. Yet that (according to Scripture) shall be taken away by God's direct action.

Such direct action has and is engaging the last of the Gentiles, and God will again place His Holy Spirit into the hearts and minds of the selected Jews of His choosing for His purpose.

​

 

[agedman]

The most troubling area to me concerning Calvinistic thinking was the broad appeal made and is mentioned in the above posts.

I was schooled that folks who respond to the little light given will be given more light and eventually come to understand the truth of the Scriptures and be saved. Such was the foolishness of the liberal professors.

When put into practice, this teaching just never was proved true.

So, in searching the Scriptures, I came to the conclusion that God does not present partial light, but a glaring brilliance in which a person falls down in submission proclaiming the Lord as Savior. This is submission of the believer. This is the one who proclaims Christ not only as Savior but Lord. Certainly, the flesh is weak and stumbling occurs - it is the human condition; however, God is faithful and not a single one has been lost.

I found in study and in practice that God's Word was shut out by the many, and only those whom God had prepared had the ears to hear and respond to the appeal of the Scriptures.

Dear friends, this is not some Calvinistic versus Arminian presentation, for any who have long been ambassadors of Christ have encountered this evidence of the work of God and the rejection by many.

There are those who I have presented the gospel many times who can quote the Bible, and yet by their own testimony have no desire or impulse toward things of the Scripture.

I know of former preachers who embrace atheism because they are as 1 John 2:19:

They went out from among us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us. But it is so that it might be made manifest that they are not all of us.
​

Frankly, the ONLY difference between the Calvinistic thinking and that of Arminian is that although BOTH know many will not respond, one group places the total responsibility upon God to both author and finish the work of salvation (faith), the other group will always look for the human capacity and find it sin-filled frail at best.

 

[Yeshua1]

God also said;
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Should we assume that all men are drawn and are saved?
After all the Bible does say He will draw all men to him self So which is true Jn 6 or JN 12 Do they contradict each other?
MB

yes, Jesus message will draw to Him those who are His own!

 

[Van]

This is an example in action that I have also mentioned to @Van concerning his use of Matthew.

I quote Matthew as I do the other books of the Bible. I present God's message of truth. To imply I use Matthew the way Calvinism uses ambiguity is obfuscation. Matthew 23:13 demonstrates both Total Spiritual Inability and Irresistible Grace are false doctrines. Calvinism claims God did not harden those of Romans 11 because they had no spiritual ability. Obviously false. Calvinism claims Jesus did not speak in parables to prevent understanding in Matthew 13 because his audience had no ability to understand. Obviously false. In order to be a Calvinist you have to kiss rational thought goodbye.

 

[Dave G]

Consider the following argument

If the doctrine of Unconditional Election is true:

Then God prefers that not all be saved.

I agree.

But the Bible says that God prefers that all be saved
(1Ti_2:3-4, 2Pe_3:9, Eze_18:23, Eze_18:32, Joh_12:32).

If you like, we can look at those passages of God's word together to determine the context.
As an example, I'll pick one from the list that you gave above:

" The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. " ( 2 Peter 3:9 ).

If I look at this all by itself, I can easily get the idea that God is patient with all men,
not willing that any of mankind should perish, but that all of mankind should come to repentance.

However, here's what I see when I open up 2 Peter 3 a bit more and take out the verse numberings:

" But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." ( 2 Peter 3:8-10 ).

Notwithstanding that the entire letter of 2 Peter is addressed to believers ( and only believers ) here:

" Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:" ( 2 Peter 1:1 ).

I see that in the passage above, when read in context as the letter that it is, the subject of the "us-ward" in 2 Peter 3:9 is the "beloved" from verse 8.
Placing this verse back into the letter and carefully comparing what is said to the whole, I see something that some may not...
That the context now changes from what I assumed to be all men in verse 9, to now only referring to all of the beloved from verse 8.

Stated another way...
Instead of God being patient towards everyone and waiting for them to repent,
I now see that God is patient towards us ( His beloved ), not willing that any ( of His beloved ) should perish ( remember John 3:16, "that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish..." and John 10:28-29, "...and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish..."? ), but that all ( of His beloved ) should come to repentance.

Therefore, I see that this passage now helps to clarify and support what many call "unconditional election" because it is not speaking with respect towards all men, but only to and about God's people.

 

[Dave G]

Therefore, the doctrine of Unconditional Election must be false.

I disagree, and I believe that I've already seen one passage from your list that agrees with it in the above, instead of disagreeing with it.

God is the one who ultimately chooses and He chooses to save believers who are in union with His elect mediator, Jesus Christ.

I agree.
But I see something in your quote above that puzzles me:

If God is the one who ultimately chooses, then how is it that you disagree with what the "Calvinist" calls, "Unconditional Election?"
To me, either God freely chooses, or He does not...and it seems to me that you believe that He relies on something that we have or that we do to make that choice.

If so, then it places Him at the feet of fallen men in order to determine who to save, provided that I'm understanding you correctly.
If I am, then it seems to me that you believe that God has set things up so that He is relying on our choices in order to make His choice...

Making His choice of the sinner to salvation ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ), and His choice of the believer in Christ before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ) dependent upon our choice of His Son.

Is this accurate?

 

[Dave G]

Consider this, if election / predestination is all settled before creation then salvation is like a lottery.

From our perspective, I agree.
From God's perspective, I see that it's exactly according to His purposes ( Romans 8:28, Ephesians 1:3-11 ).

What most people that hold this view will not admit is that even if you think you are one of the elect you can never be sure.

Perhaps many have stated this, but I would not.
If a person is truly one of God's elect, then they will know it by many evidential passages... such as the entire letter of 1 John beginning at roughly 1 John 2:15 and finishing with this:

" These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." ( 1 John 5:13 ).

Please notice what it does not say...
That the believer can be unsure of whether or not they are saved.

Rather, it tells me that we as believers can indeed know, and it's because of "these things" that the Holy Spirit has inspired John to write for us.

 

[Silverhair]

The most troubling area to me concerning Calvinistic thinking was the broad appeal made and is mentioned in the above posts.

I was schooled that folks who respond to the little light given will be given more light and eventually come to understand the truth of the Scriptures and be saved. Such was the foolishness of the liberal professors.

When put into practice, this teaching just never was proved true.

So, in searching the Scriptures, I came to the conclusion that God does not present partial light, but a glaring brilliance in which a person falls down in submission proclaiming the Lord as Savior. This is submission of the believer. This is the one who proclaims Christ not only as Savior but Lord. Certainly, the flesh is weak and stumbling occurs - it is the human condition; however, God is faithful and not a single one has been lost.

I found in study and in practice that God's Word was shut out by the many, and only those whom God had prepared had the ears to hear and respond to the appeal of the Scriptures.

Dear friends, this is not some Calvinistic versus Arminian presentation, for any who have long been ambassadors of Christ have encountered this evidence of the work of God and the rejection by many.

There are those who I have presented the gospel many times who can quote the Bible, and yet by their own testimony have no desire or impulse toward things of the Scripture.

I know of former preachers who embrace atheism because they are as 1 John 2:19:

They went out from among us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us. But it is so that it might be made manifest that they are not all of us.
​

Frankly, the ONLY difference between the Calvinistic thinking and that of Arminian is that although BOTH know many will not respond, one group places the total responsibility upon God to both author and finish the work of salvation (faith), the other group will always look for the human capacity and find it sin-filled frail at best.

The most troubling area for me concerning the Calvinist view is that it disparages the character of God. They have God hold out the offer of salvation to all and yet according to them it is only meant for a select few. This is in spite of the verses that say God desires all to be saved. (1Ti_2:3-4, 2Pe_3:9, Eze_18:23, Eze_18:32, Joh_12:32) And expects that they can indeed make that choice to follow Christ Jesus. (Joh 3:16, Joh 3:18)

God has presented creation as a means of drawing people to Himself and says man has no excuse because of it. (Rom_1:20) He also presents the gospel message which enables man to trust in Christ Jesus for salvation. (Eph 1:13, Rom 10:14) God has made it clear that for those that turn to Christ Jesus in faith they will be saved. (Rom 10:9-10)

Christ Jesus is the cornerstone of our faith as we are told in Isa 28:16 and it is through trusting in Him that we are saved (Rom 10:13) As I understand it God has made salvation simple so that it is available to anyone. God, because His is sovereign, has given man a free will so that they can accept or reject the gospel message and are thus responsible for those choices.

Some will disagree with what I have said and that is ok as I am not here to change their minds. I just let scripture form my theology.

 

[Silverhair]

I disagree, and I believe that I've already seen one passage from your list that agrees with it in the above, instead of disagreeing with it.

I agree.
But I see something in your quote above that puzzles me:

If God is the one who ultimately chooses, then how is it that you disagree with what the "Calvinist" calls, "Unconditional Election?"
To me, either God freely chooses, or He does not, my friend;
While it seems to me that you believe that He relies on something that we have or that we do to make that choice...

Which places Him at the feet of fallen men in order to determine who to save, if I'm understanding you correctly.
If I am, then it seems to me that you believe that God has set things up so that He is relying on our choices in order to make His choice...

Making His choice of the sinner to salvation ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ), and His choice of the believer in Christ before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ) dependent upon our choice of His Son.

Is this accurate?

>>If God is the one who ultimately chooses, then how is it that you disagree with what the "Calvinist" calls, "Unconditional Election?"
To me, either God freely chooses, or He does not, my friend;
While it seems to me that you believe that He relies on something that we have or that we do to make that choice...<<

When I say that God is "the one who ultimately chooses" I am just saying that we cannot save ourselves. God saves us based on our faith in Christ Jesus. No faith no salvation.

 

[agedman]

I quote Matthew as I do the other books of the Bible. I present God's message of truth. To imply I use Matthew the way Calvinism uses ambiguity is obfuscation. Matthew 23:13 demonstrates both Total Spiritual Inability and Irresistible Grace are false doctrines. Calvinism claims God did not harden those of Romans 11 because they had no spiritual ability. Obviously false. Calvinism claims Jesus did not speak in parables to prevent understanding in Matthew 13 because his audience had no ability to understand. Obviously false. In order to be a Calvinist you have to kiss rational thought goodbye.

Do you agree that even the thought of foolishness is a sin?

The reason I inquire is that you have abundantly been shown from scripture, by others and myself, how your presentation concerning soteriology matters are inconsistent and false. You have even have attempted to bring some “interpreter” translation to establish your cause.

Yet, you have not shown the source of such translation for validation and credibility which leaves the reader to assume that it is conjured from your own rationalizations in desire to support your own schemes.

Therefore, it would not proclamation of a scheme, either Arminian or Calvinist, which have been bantered about for centuries, as worthy of a kiss seem rather silly.

 

[Silverhair]

From our perspective, I agree.
From God's perspective, I see that it's exactly according to His purposes ( Romans 8:28, Ephesians 1:3-11 ).

Perhaps many have stated this, but I would not.
If a person is truly one of God's elect, then they will know it by many evidential passages... such as the entire letter of 1 John beginning at roughly 1 John 2:15 and finishing with this:

" These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." ( 1 John 5:13 ).

Please notice what it does not say...
That the believer can be unsure of whether or not they are saved.

Rather, it tells me that we as believers can indeed know, and it's because of "these things" that the Holy Spirit has inspired John to write for us.

Dave I believe that the purpose of God is to save a people for Himself and that through faith in His son. I see in scripture that we have the God given free will to accept or reject said faith.

Calvinists have to have faith given to them, but it is only the so called elect that actually get that faith. And I have seen many times where Calvinists will say that any that fall away from faith, even though they professed to believe and were involved in the church, never really were saved in the first place. They just thought they were saved, they thought they had God given faith. So that is why I say that for the Calvinist you can never really know if you are saved as it is not a choice you made. Your determinism does not allow for you to say it is your faith because you cannot really know for sure. Your just determined to think that way.

Dave I can hold to 1Jn 5:13 because I made the choice to believe in Christ Jesus. Not because I am smarter but because I was given the free will to look at creation and when hearing the gospel to decide that it is true. That is the same option that is open to all people.

 

[Dave G]

When I say that God is "the one who ultimately chooses" I am just saying that we cannot save ourselves.

Thank you for clarifying that.
So, if we cannot save ourselves, does that mean that we can save ourselves by something that we do, or something that we have?

To me, that would be us "saving ourselves"

God saves us based on our faith in Christ Jesus.

So you believe that He does indeed base a person's salvation on something that we do and something that we have.

You don't see this as Him basing salvation on a person's efforts, even in the tiniest way?
I'm sorry, but I do... and to me, that makes faith into a work that the Lord then sees and grants salvation to the person who made the right decision.

No faith no salvation.

I agree that faith is involved.
I even agree that God credits a person's faith and trust in His words, as righteousness.

But I do not believe that a person's faith is what causes God to decide to save them.

 

[Dave G]

Dave I believe that the purpose of God is to save a people for Himself and that through faith in His son. I see in scripture that we have the God given free will to accept or reject said faith.

Calvinists have to have faith given to them, but it is only the so called elect that actually get that faith. And I have seen many times where Calvinists will say that any that fall away from faith, even though they professed to believe and were involved in the church, never really were saved in the first place. They just thought they were saved, they thought they had God given faith. So that is why I say that for the Calvinist you can never really know if you are saved as it is not a choice you made. Your determinism does not allow for you to say it is your faith because you cannot really know for sure. Your just determined to think that way.

Dave I can hold to 1Jn 5:13 because I made the choice to believe in Christ Jesus. Not because I am smarter but because I was given the free will to look at creation and when hearing the gospel to decide that it is true. That is the same option that is open to all people.

I understand your point of view, Silverhair, and I once believed as you do when I was growing up in Independent Baptist churches.
After studying God's words for myself for the past 18+ years, I can say that what you've described in the first part of your quote above is now very nearly "alien" to me, I'm sorry to say.

I also see something in your quote that I see Paul teaching in His epistles ( and that many so-called "Calvinists" preach and teach ),
and I've underlined it and bolded it for your reference.
The fact that there are "wheat" and "tares", false believers and true ones ( Matthew 13 ), and that not everyone who says that they are saved ( and who confesses Christ with the lips ), really is ( Matthew 7:21-23 ).

It sobers me greatly to know this, and I am frightened for many who think that they are saved and have never had their hearts and minds changed by Him.

According to the Scriptures, there are certain evidences that will show themselves in a person's life, if they are saved and indwelt with the Holy Spirit.
Those evidences are many, and can be listed in another thread if you wish to look at them.

For now, I've made reference to where many of them can be found in post # 130.

 

[Dave G]

@Silverhair :

Based on your related experience of making the choice to believe, I too would have to say that I chose to believe.
I do not know how it was for you, but when I heard His words during the preaching of them in 1978, I immediately knew that they were true, with no hesitation.
What I know that I heard was my Saviour's voice, and I recognized His words for what they were and are...the truth.

As for what you call "determinism", I see the Scriptures stating it very clearly now and in great detail...
not because I was led into it by anything outside of the Bible ( such as a systematic theology ), but because of what it says in the many passages that we seem to keep disagreeing over.
That is what prompts me to post what I do to you, and to ask the many questions ( and make the many observations ) that I do.

I'm sorry that in all likelihood we may never agree on this ( and perhaps many other things in the Bible, as well ),
and it saddens me that, regardless of which one of us is correct, I recognize that neither of us can truly walk together with the other, unless and until we come to agree with one another ( Amos 3:3 ).



That said,
I wish you well, sir, and may God bless you in many ways.

 

[Silverhair]

Thank you for clarifying that.
So, if we cannot save ourselves, does that mean that we can save ourselves by something that we do, or something that we have?

So you believe that He does indeed base a person's salvation on something that we do and something that we have.

You don't see this as Him basing salvation on a person's efforts, even in the tiniest way?

I agree that faith is involved.
I even agree that God credits a person's faith and trust in His words, as righteousness.

But I do not believe that a person's faith is what causes God to decide to save them.

The Jews did not find salvation because they thought it could be obtained through works of the Law (Rom_9:32)

Those that do find salvation find it not by works but through faith which we know is not a work but is the condition that God has set for salvation.

(Gal_2:16) knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but... that we might be justified by faith in Christ

I know that Calvinists want to call faith a work but the bible disagrees. That faith that trust in Christ Jesus is Gods’ requirement or salvation. You ask if I see God basing salvation on a persons efforts. No but I do see salvation based on a persons faith just as God requires. The bible shows that salvation is by faith or through faith. (Rom 3:30, Rom 5:1, Gal 2:16, Rom 5:2)

>>But I do not believe that a person's faith is what causes God to decide to save them
<<

So if it is not faith that brings about our salvation what is it? The bible says it is because of faith so what are we to conclude?

Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith

Col 2:12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Act 26:18 ...receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.'

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith,

Rom 5:2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace

We are saved by grace because of our faith not so that we will have faith. This what the bible shows us so this is what I believe.

 

[Dave G]

So if it is not faith that brings about our salvation what is it?

Romans 9.
God's mercy and compassion, making each of us vessels of mercy.

o if it is not faith that brings about our salvation what is it? The bible says it is because of faith so what are we to conclude?

Notice what you wrote, and what it says in the passages that you quoted:

Through faith ( faith being involved ), but does that mean because of it?
If this will help, I'll make some replies in the body of the text from above:

Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith

Col 2:12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. <---- Justification manifested, or shown to be true by the evidence of a person's faith.

Act 26:18 ...receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.' <--- Sanctification shown by a person's faith, evidentially, not conditionally.

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, <--- Faith is evidential, according to Hebrews 11:1, not "conditional".

Rom 5:2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace <-----------Access granted by the faith that was given to the believer ( Ephesians 2:8 ), authored and finished by His Son ( Hebrews 12:2 ).

I understand that you probably won't make the connection of where I see true faith coming from, or why people believe on Christ ( because it is given to them to believe, Philippians 1:29 ),
But in the Scriptures, it is stated, my friend.

The believer does many things by faith.
Now, where does a person get what the Scriptures say that they did not have ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2, Galatians 3:23 )?

" But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed." ( Galatians 3:23 ).

Right here:

" For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
9 not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." ( Ephesians 2:8-10 ).


Our will had nothing to do with why any of us are saved, my friend.
According to Romans 1, Romans 3 and John 3:19-20, our will was biased against God, and His will is all that caused us to be born from above ( John 1:11-13, James 1:18 ).

God has given to each one of us who truly loves Him and His Son, a precious gift...
The faith "of" Jesus Christ ( Galatians 2:16-20 ).

" knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ..."
" that we might be justified by the faith of Christ..."
" ...the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."



Good evening to you, sir.

 

[AustinC]

The Jews did not find salvation because they thought it could be obtained through works of the Law (Rom_9:32)

Those that do find salvation find it not by works but through faith which we know is not a work but is the condition that God has set for salvation.

(Gal_2:16) knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but... that we might be justified by faith in Christ

I know that Calvinists want to call faith a work but the bible disagrees. That faith that trust in Christ Jesus is Gods’ requirement or salvation. You ask if I see God basing salvation on a persons efforts. No but I do see salvation based on a persons faith just as God requires. The bible shows that salvation is by faith or through faith. (Rom 3:30, Rom 5:1, Gal 2:16, Rom 5:2)

>>But I do not believe that a person's faith is what causes God to decide to save them
<<

So if it is not faith that brings about our salvation what is it? The bible says it is because of faith so what are we to conclude?

Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith

Col 2:12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Act 26:18 ...receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.'

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith,

Rom 5:2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace

We are saved by grace because of our faith not so that we will have faith. This what the bible shows us so this is what I believe.

No one, whom you consider a Calvinist, thinks faith is a work. They also think faith is a gift given to the believer by the author of faith.(Hebrews 12) Finally they think that this faith, given to them by God, does the good works which God ordains them to do. (Ephesians 2)

To say "we are saved by grace because of OUR faith" is an arrogant claim, not promoted by scripture. In fact it denies grace entirely and denigrates God's gift of faith in a claim that it is of man.

How silverhair cannot see his arrogant claim is perplexing.