Can you prove by Scripture

[agedman]

I’ve separated out your post so that I may respond to your points.

The most troubling area for me concerning the Calvinist view is that it disparages the character of God. They have God hold out the offer of salvation to all and yet according to them it is only meant for a select few. This is in spite of the verses that say God desires all to be saved. (1Ti_2:3-4, 2Pe_3:9, Eze_18:23, Eze_18:32, Joh_12:32) And expects that they can indeed make that choice to follow Christ Jesus. (Joh 3:16, Joh 3:18)

I can understand where some may draw the conclusion that Calvinist “disparages the character of God.” However, to the Calvinist thinking, the idea that God isn’t smart enough, insightful of what humans call future, or is hopefully surprised at human decisions that characterizes the extrapolation of other schemes is disparaging the character of God.

Would you not agree that God is not conformed to human time, nor the human condition of having to hope something happens?

Would you not agree that God knows everything, is surprised by nothing, and is needing no recalculating plan or a plan “B”?

Certainly, God desires all to be saved, just as He committed the Son to shed the blood for all sin. However, you and I recognize that the appeal does not impact all the same. God’s appeal through Moses to pharaoh, Joshua’s appeal to the Israelites, the Christ’s appeal to Jerusalem, Peter’s appeal at Pentecost… all resulted in a few out of the many.

Does humankind have the ability to “follow Jesus?” Yes

Is it successful? No. “Depart from me I never knew you”.

One can be the disciple of the Lord, and never know Him.

Who is the mediator that must wait on humans to activate sin-filled frail faith?

God has presented creation as a means of drawing people to Himself and says man has no excuse because of it. (Rom_1:20) He also presents the gospel message which enables man to trust in Christ Jesus for salvation. (Eph 1:13, Rom 10:14) God has made it clear that for those that turn to Christ Jesus in faith they will be saved. (Rom 10:9-10)

And all this is correct, however, is human faith sufficient? Nope.

The Lord and Paul both mention faith capable of moving mountains, yet no human simply by their own fallen faith can even add a single measure of height to themself, how much less could they move dirt or engage the creator?

As you pointed out, the presentation of Scriptures is a must for the Holy Spirit to work. How that happens is the struggle of human construction and centuries of debate.

For me, I find no freedom of the will or human faith in the unbeliever, rather does not the Scriptures present the enslavement of the unbeliever in ever increasing depravity and payment of death?
Sure all humans can choose “good” gifts, but s both good and perfect gifts not from God?

So, knowing that innate faith and the will is both frailty and corrupt, does not God appoint to the believer a new creation so that nothing of the flesh enters the new heaven and earth?

Did not Paul state that it does not appear what we shall be, but just as the seed does not represent the plant, our current physical is not representative of what we shall be.

Christ Jesus is the cornerstone of our faith as we are told in Isa 28:16 and it is through trusting in Him that we are saved (Rom 10:13) As I understand it God has made salvation simple so that it is available to anyone. God, because His is sovereign, has given man a free will so that they can accept or reject the gospel message and are thus responsible for those choices.

Certainly. The message is both simple and foolish. Does not God take the foolish to confound the wise?

From the response stated above you can read part of my thinking concerning freedom of the will. I had withstand a lowered grade in graduate school because I dared write the final paper concerning why dogs return to their vomit.

Some will disagree with what I have said and that is ok as I am not here to change their minds. I just let scripture form my theology.

This is good, for without the work of the Scriptures any change is as steady as the direction of tomorrow’s wind.

 

[Silverhair]

I understand your point of view, Silverhair, and I once believed as you do when I was growing up in Independent Baptist churches.
After studying God's words for myself for the past 18+ years, I can say that what you've described in the first part of your quote above is now very nearly "alien" to me, I'm sorry to say.

I also see something in your quote that I see Paul teaching in His epistles ( and that many so-called "Calvinists" preach and teach ),
and I've underlined it and bolded it for your reference.
The fact that there are "wheat" and "tares", false believers and true ones ( Matthew 13 ), and that not everyone who says that they are saved ( and who confesses Christ with the lips ), really is ( Matthew 7:21-23 ).

It sobers me greatly to know this, and I am frightened for many who think that they are saved and have never had their hearts and minds changed by Him.

According to the Scriptures, there are certain evidences that will show themselves in a person's life, if they are saved and indwelt with the Holy Spirit.
Those evidences are many, and can be listed in another thread if you wish to look at them.

For now, I've made reference to where many of them can be found in post # 130.

I agree that it is indeed a sobering thought that a large number of "Christians" have never been changed. They treat salvation as a get out of hell card, very sad.

As I understand it and have been told, if you are one of the elect then you can't loose your salvation. That to me is just a free ticket to not care about or even try to change. I mean if God has determined it all then why try. Your either in or your out.

I have spent a number of years 50+ studying the bible and I still don't even know all the questions let alone the answers but I just keep plugging away. I have over the last several years spent a large amount of time looking at Calvinism as it relates to the bible. I find that there are to many problems with it for me to consider it a correct view.

 

[Silverhair]

No one, whom you consider a Calvinist, thinks faith is a work. They also think faith is a gift given to the believer by the author of faith.(Hebrews 12) Finally they think that this faith, given to them by God, does the good works which God ordains them to do. (Ephesians 2)

To say "we are saved by grace because of OUR faith" is an arrogant claim, not promoted by scripture. In fact it denies grace entirely and denigrates God's gift of faith in a claim that it is of man.

How silverhair cannot see his arrogant claim is perplexing.

Well then I guess you and I are just going to disagree on what the bible says. Since God has made faith the requirement for salvation I think I will side with Him.

Austin did you actually read the post? What do you think these verses say?

So if it is not faith that brings about our salvation what is it? The bible says it is because of faith so what are we to conclude?

Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith

Col 2:12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Act 26:18 ...receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.'

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith,

Rom 5:2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace

Not an arrogant claim just a biblical one.

 

[Silverhair]

I’ve separated out your post so that I may respond to your points.



I can understand where some may draw the conclusion that Calvinist “disparages the character of God.” However, to the Calvinist thinking, the idea that God isn’t smart enough, insightful of what humans call future, or is hopefully surprised at human decisions that characterizes the extrapolation of other schemes is disparaging the character of God.

Would you not agree that God is not conformed to human time, nor the human condition of having to hope something happens?

Would you not agree that God knows everything, is surprised by nothing, and is needing no recalculating plan or a plan “B”?

Certainly, God desires all to be saved, just as He committed the Son to shed the blood for all sin. However, you and I recognize that the appeal does not impact all the same. God’s appeal through Moses to pharaoh, Joshua’s appeal to the Israelites, the Christ’s appeal to Jerusalem, Peter’s appeal at Pentecost… all resulted in a few out of the many.

Does humankind have the ability to “follow Jesus?” Yes

Is it successful? No. “Depart from me I never knew you”.

One can be the disciple of the Lord, and never know Him.

Who is the mediator that must wait on humans to activate sin-filled frail faith?




And all this is correct, however, is human faith sufficient? Nope.

The Lord and Paul both mention faith capable of moving mountains, yet no human simply by their own fallen faith can even add a single measure of height to themself, how much less could they move dirt or engage the creator?

As you pointed out, the presentation of Scriptures is a must for the Holy Spirit to work. How that happens is the struggle of human construction and centuries of debate.

For me, I find no freedom of the will or human faith in the unbeliever, rather does not the Scriptures present the enslavement of the unbeliever in ever increasing depravity and payment of death?
Sure all humans can choose “good” gifts, but s both good and perfect gifts not from God?

So, knowing that innate faith and the will is both frailty and corrupt, does not God appoint to the believer a new creation so that nothing of the flesh enters the new heaven and earth?

Did not Paul state that it does not appear what we shall be, but just as the seed does not represent the plant, our current physical is not representative of what we shall be.



Certainly. The message is both simple and foolish. Does not God take the foolish to confound the wise?

From the response stated above you can read part of my thinking concerning freedom of the will. I had withstand a lowered grade in graduate school because I dared write the final paper concerning why dogs return to their vomit.




This is good, for without the work of the Scriptures any change is as steady as the direction of tomorrow’s wind.

I have over the years gone back and forth with Calvinist friends, some of whom are ministers, I have been on forums and yet I have not see a compelling reason to change my mind. I will stick with the scriptures as plainly written. I do not require someone to tell me what a text really means. Fact is that until about 10 yrs ago I had never even heard of this great C vs A fight. To me all this is just a tempest in a teapot. People should just read the bible and trust what it says.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 12:55 AM Pacific.

 

[agedman]

I have over the years gone back and forth with Calvinist friends, some of whom are ministers, I have been on forums and yet I have not see a compelling reason to change my mind. I will stick with the scriptures as plainly written. I do not require someone to tell me what a text really means. Fact is that until about 10 yrs ago I had never even heard of this great C vs A fight. To me all this is just a tempest in a teapot. People should just read the bible and trust what it says.

I agree that friendly conversations can be problematic unless both agree with Scriptures being used are the final authority.

To me some issues on both sides will not be resolved until we cross over, however there are also some doctrinal problems that both sides may have if they contemplate the end of the extrapolation which one must always be careful to sift all things through the Scriptures.

The extreme of the Arminian side ends with losing salvation by not hanging on to the human faith. They use various Scriptures as proof such as: “They that endure to the end…”

The extrapolation of the extreme Calvinist ends up with no evangelistic efforts.

I have wondered if perhaps God does use a blend of both schemes and perhaps one or the other as He chooses to His glory, but I have yet to find cause to disregard the Scriptures, and I can tell you also have the same dedication to the Word.

 

[AustinC]

Well then I guess you and I are just going to disagree on what the bible says. Since God has made faith the requirement for salvation I think I will side with Him.

Austin did you actually read the post? What do you think these verses say?

So if it is not faith that brings about our salvation what is it? The bible says it is because of faith so what are we to conclude?

Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith

Col 2:12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Act 26:18 ...receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.'

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith,

Rom 5:2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace

Not an arrogant claim just a biblical one.

First, God has not made faith a requirement for salvation.
Faith is given that we will be justified. Note that none of your verses say "faith is required for salvation." Here is what Paul tells you is required for salvation. The answer is... grace.

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

 

[37818]

God has made faith a requirement. Romans 10:17-18, Hebrews 11:6. Therefore faith is a requirement for salvation, John 3:18, Ephesians 2:8.

 

[AustinC]

God has made faith a requirement. Romans 10:17-18, Hebrews 11:6. Therefore faith is a requirement for salvation, John 3:18, Ephesians 2:8.

Again, none of these verses say that faith is a requirement before God can...save.
If that were so, then salvation is not by grace. God would be chained from extending saving grace until the human being created enough faith to unchain God and cause God to extend saving grace. (How silly is the thought that God cannot act until a human fulfills a requirement. We do not live under the law.)
None of your verse citations support your assertion.
We believe precisely because God has acted first, not because we have acted and caused God to respond.

 

[kyredneck]

Note that none of your verses say "faith is required for salvation."

Again, none of these verses say that faith is a requirement before God can...save.

Wow, ain't that a coincidence. You've never produced a verse that states 'justification is by faith alone'.

 

[MB]

The appeal to the lost is not conditional. However, no one responds to the appeal, just as the Christ stated concerning Jerusalem and how many times He sent them prophets.

What some hold as a general appeal, however, does not present that folks have the ability to respond anymore than the pharaoh of Egypt could do other than reject the appeals of Moses after God confirmed his hard heart.

Folks are already condemned, they cannot appeal the sentence of death, for all have sinned.

However, the God of Salvation can at His pleasure take from the many of slave market of sin and death and redeem those of His choice. He then will remove those persons from any capacity to be sold again into the slavery and embrace them as adopted children.

That is not only Calvinist thinking but those that hold an Armenian view, too.

Certainly, there is an emotional draw when one looks at the cross, just as there is when the nativity is presented. But such a draw does not indicate the work of the Holy Spirit is involved, for there must be the Word of God not seen but heard.

Taking from your reference of John 12, the passage also says this:

37Although Jesus had performed so many signs in their presence, they still did not believe in Him.

38This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:

“Lord, who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”​

39For this reason they were unable to believe.
For again, Isaiah says:

40“He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their hearts,
so that they cannot see with their eyes,
and understand with their hearts,
and turn, and I would heal them.”​

41Isaiah said these things because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about Him.

42Nevertheless, many of the leaders believed in Him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him,
for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue.
43For they loved praise from men more than praise from God.​

This is an example in action that I have also mentioned to @Van concerning his use of Matthew. The power of the temple (synagogue) is not preventing salvation but the fear of loosing the perceived and traditional law approach to God did and still does present a certain blindness and hardness of hearing. Yet that (according to Scripture) shall be taken away by God's direct action.

Such direct action has and is engaging the last of the Gentiles, and God will again place His Holy Spirit into the hearts and minds of the selected Jews of His choosing for His purpose.

​

Excuse me but your idea is already defeated in Jn 6:44
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
No election to Salvation mentioned
There is no such conditions to this verse As you have placed on it Plainly all who are drawn will be raised up.This is exactly what it clearly says.
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Neither in this one.They are both compatible.The only thing that stops one from being saved is rejection of the drawing and plenty do reject it.
MB
..

 

[MB]

yes, Jesus message will draw to Him those who are His own!

The Bible clearly states All. How is it that Calvinist fail to understand this word ALL. It's simple but you insist on adding your own words to it because of faulty doctrines.
MB

 

[Squire Robertsson]

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