So, you believe in eternal salvation by the works of man and not by God's grace alone?l
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Can you really BLAME them?
- Thread starter Skandelon
- Start date
No. I believe that man is saved by grace through faith. I also believe that Skandelon has the correct interpretation of Jacob and Esau – there are instances where I believe that some Calvinists take Covenant theory too far in that everything becomes centered on the elect rather than on Christ.
I think your particular question is probably regarding his statement that those who perish don’t perish because they were not chosen, but that they perish because they refuse to love the truth and be saved. I agree with this statement. Scripture is explicitly clear that those who perish do so because they reject the Truth. But, as Skandelon stated, men are saved by grace through faith. That faith is of God – not of men; and the quote I agreed with was concerning those who are perishing.
Do you believe that men accept Christ but are condemned anyway because they were not chosen?
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Eph 2:8, For by grace areye saved "through faith"; this faith is not refering to our faith, but "the faithfulness" of Christ to carry out his Father's will, John 6:37-41. We are justified by the faith of Christ (not our faith), Gal 2:16. You affirm that they perish because they refuse to love the truth and be saved. The natural man cannot discern spiritual things, they are follishness unto him. 1 Cor 2:14. The only way that a natural man can love the truth is after he is first quickened from a death (spiritual death) in sins to a life in Christ,Eph 2:5, and even then the Holy Spirit has to reveal the truth to him. Those who are not chosen cannot accept Christ because they are but natural men who cannot descern spiritual things.
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Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Forest, with all due respect, it doesn't appear your posts are in response to what has been stated. You seem to quote a post and then restate a Calvinistic premise, which may or may not even apply to the post you are quoting. May I suggest you start going line by line, or phrase by phrase, or at least paragraph by paragraph and respond to what is actually being discussed in that post. We already know the Calvinistic talking points. We've heard them, so now you can focus on responding to the discussion. Okay?
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Yes, you didn't get a ballot? Uh-oh. I guess you're not one of the chosen ones. :smilewinkgrin:
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Listen, we established this point before you got here:
Unable to be willing = unable
Okay? Why else would John 6:44 speak of being 'enabled?'
If I gave you a drug which made you not ever want to obey any law and you committed a crime, who is really culpable?
Even if you WANTED to commit the crime I would be found culpable by any rational jury. Understand my point?
In the passage in John, I see the humanity of Christ becoming a stumbling block for the Jews. They know his earthly family – how can he say that he came down out of heaven? They don’t understand spiritual truths, and this is a confirmation of God’s work in election and predestination: “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him….” I can understand that the Jews were not able to come (δύναμαι) unless the Father draws him (ἕλκω). One problem that I have is finding “enable” in the passage. ἕλκω indicates drawing – not enabling. So we disagree with what the verse actually states. I also see the same dependence on God as I believe the Christian discerns spiritual truths by the Holy Spirit and not of himself being enabled.
That brings me to our disagreement. I do not agree that “unable to be willing equates to unable.” The difference in your illustration is that men are not given anything to alter their will. They are able, they are created in the image of God, but they willingly misuse their humanity in rebellion to their Creator. It is not a lack of anything on man’s part, but rather the object of man’s desire. I view man’s unwillingness as a product of man. The world is condemned because they are able, they are capable, but they are not willing.
But yes, I do understand your point. Since the point was agreed upon before I arrived, please continue and I’ll refrain from voicing an opposition on the term. I don’t want to stall the thread on an established point (especially if you actually got a bunch of Calvinists to agree – I’d refrain from disagreeing with you on that accomplishment alone J).
Forest,
You are incorrect in assuming that I believe that “faith” in Eph 2:8 refers to faith originating with man. This faith is of God, not of man. I do not believe that anyone here has not affirmed that faith is of God.
If you are implying that I do not hold to reprobation as a divine decree, then you are correct.
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The natural man will never accept Christ until God quickens him together with Christ. Eph 2:5. John 10:27-29, My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me, and I give unto them eternal life, and they shall NEVER PERISH, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand, My Father, whic h gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
I do disagree that natural men will never accept Christ until God quickens them together with Chirst – He made us alive together with Christ – Christ’s sheep hear His voice. It is through Christ that we are quickened. Christ is our salvation. Christ is our redemption. There are none who are alive together with Christ who then chooses to accept Him.
If they are his sheep, they are already qickened.
You're saying that man will not accept Christ until God quickens him together with Christ but that the sheep are already quickened. So those whom Christ came to save, His sheep, are spiritually alive before they believe in Christ because otherwise they could never believe?
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seekingthetruth
New Member
I posted a thread a few weeks ago asking "When are we saved?"
My question was based on the 5 points of Calvinism. If a person is predestined to be saved, and he has no choice about it, cant resist it, and it is forced upon him, (btw, while forcing damnation on others), then isnt he already essentially saved before he is even born?
What is the point of repenting or asking for salvation if God granted mercy, grace and salvation upon you before you were even born?
According to Calvinism, will God ever let one of His "elected/chosen" die lost?
NO!!! they claim that their eternity is sealed before their birth.
So what is the point of evangelism? Can man alter God's plan? Can man make God give up one of His "elect/chosen"? Can man make God accept a non-elect, non-chosen sinner and grant him salvation?
Not according to Calvinists.
Now watch, they will come in here and dispute what I said here, and say that I dont understand Calvinism, and they will dance around the theology of Calvinism to hide what they really believe...even though it is not biblical, moral or logical.
But the truth doesnt change no matter how much they deny it. Either we are saved before we are even born, or, we have a choice to accept or reject salvation in our lifetime.
John
God choose an elect people because he knew by his foreknowledge that no one would seek after him. All of those that God choose before the foundation of the world,Eph 1, he gave to Christ to die for those elect (that he choose before the foundation of the world) and by his work upon the cross accomplished eternal salvation for all that he died for, John 6:37-41. We are all, both the elect and the no-elect, born into this world by a natural birth void of any righteousness until God quickens his elect together with Christ and puts his Spirit within them. Man plays no part by his willingness in the quickening process, Eph 2:1-5. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.Rom 9:15. If they are sheep, they are God's elect. The natural man that is not of the elect are not his sheep.
Those elect that he choose before the foundation of the world, Eph 1, were not eternally saved until Christ became a sacrifice for their sins and reconciled them back to God. Eternal salvation for God's elect was accomplished by Christ upon the cross, John 6:37-41. All that are saved eternally was saved on the cross. There has not been any saved eternally after Christ accomplished his Fathers will upon the cross. The purpose of the gospel is not to save anyone eternally, but to feed those that Christ has already saved. Jesus said the purpose of the preacher is to feed his sheep.
My question is: Are you stating that natural man will never accept Christ until God quickens him together with Christ and that if they are his sheep they are already quickened?
If so then Seekingthetruth is absolutely correct – you are presenting the “elect” as saved regardless of their relationship with Christ. They were saved before they were even born by virtue of divine election. The work on the Cross was meaningless then, because it was simply the mode chosen by God to express salvation to the saved.
If I understand you correctly then I suppose my greatest disagreement is that the salvation you present is centered on God’s divine election rather than on Christ and salvation for the elect rather than for the glory of God.
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Alive in Christ
New Member
This is exhibit "A"...in all of its glory...as to why, after settling in to Calvinism years ago, I fled calvinism like the plague.
God has ordained the means also, that he will use to save His elect.prayer preaching and evangelism are means.
NO.....Never:thumbs:
Yep, I can blame the reprobate.
When I sit on a jury and overlook the upbringing, the background culture, the status, the education, the mental state, the hygiene, and a host of other unknowns, to bring a verdict of guilty in a court case, why cannot God who experiences no "unknowns?"
God's law makes no excuses. God's law is perfect. God's law will never cease to be the law. God established the law in every person born.
It certainly is NOT God's fault the sinner sins. To even attempt to blame God would be an attempt at destroying the Sovereignty and Divine Right of the King of Kings.
That is why God said, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."
It is God's "Divine Right" of choice. God is the Sovereign and cannot be blamed.
The blame is upon the reprobate.
If the depraved are angry, it isn't because God has rejected them, it is confirmation that evil has rejected God.