Candidates of Apostasy; Are you one?

[vooks]

Yes, really. I don't know how God works in the lives of infants.
.

On the contrary, you @JonC δοῦλος know how God works in infants. You are either ignorant of this aspect of your theology or worse, you conveniently pretend to be ignorant.

Before we get into that, let's summarize your theory;
1. Transition to eternal life is one-way; you can move from death to life but never from life to death
2. The 'gifting' of eternal life is conditional but the eternal life is unconditional, meaning once you receive it, you don't need to do nothing to keep it

When I asked you how one receives eternal life, I was not looking for a lengthy diatribe or a vague 'look it up in John's epistles', it was a rhetorical question meant to provoke your thinking.

Let's now look at your theory deals with infants. We can extrapolate infants from how God deals with adults;

First, infants either,
1. Possess eternal life
2. Some possess it and some don't
3. They don't possess eternal life
4. They don't possess eternal life but are never damned should they perish in their infancy

#1 is impossible with your theory because some of these infants grow up to adults who are damned. Remember all who end up in the lake of fire were once infants.

#2 is interesting. Those who possess would probably be those who grow up to be saved like @JonC δοῦλος , while those who don't would be those who grow up to be damned like say, antichrist. Very tidy, right? Wrong! What about those infants who perish in their infancy? Some die before they see the sun.

#3 is where your theory meets the rub. You @JonC δοῦλος like all other infants were born spiritually dead, objects of God's wrath. Some grow up to find eternal life while others remain dead and hell fodder. But it still means that the infants perishing in their infancy are hell fodder. Those tiny cute things end up in hell ere they open their eyes, which means their damnation has nothing to do with what they do or they don't do. May be they were stained with Original Sin's eternal consequences after all

#4 is quite nonsensical that I would never dignify it with any sort of response

So you can see @JonC δοῦλος to answer the question of infants, you only need to interrogate when you received eternal life. What were you before this? Did what you were before you received eternal life stretch to your infancy?

The God of your theory damns infants @JonC δοῦλος. What a God!

You can avoid such awkward conclusions (that you willingly like Peter deny publicly) by simply accepting that eternal life can be wasted. Eternal life is an opportunity to be by His Side. It can be squandered

PS
Allow me to say that when I use 'you', I'm not referring to you @JonC δοῦλος but rather to some other dude whose beliefs mirrors yours to the last jot. That's the only way I can avoid being stalked by the mods!

 

[Squire Robertsson]

You're not being "stalked." However, the C/A Debate forum is for many various and sundry good reasons fairly tightly moderated by the Admin team.

That's the only way I can avoid being stalked by the mods

 

[vooks]

What about those who have trodden under foot the Son of God..? A true Christian who has the Holy Spirit dwelling in Him cannot do such a thing.
They are "sanctified" or set apart by Christ. How can he count the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified unholy? He cannot. But that is what he would be doing if he were to return to the Temple, and start offering Old Testament sacrifices again.
He can't go back. Over and over again the writer admonishes: "Let us go on..." They can't go back; they must go on...go on unto perfection or completion...look unto Jesus, not being discouraged.

This is a sin a believer cannot commit. A believer cannot lose his salvation.

Excuse me sir,
What is the point of the author of Hebrws warning Christians against an implausible sin?

Wait,it was warning the false believers, right? Well, they are already damned so what's the point, and in any case, why tell the true believers all this?

 

[vooks]

You're not being "stalked." However, the C/A Debate forum is for many various and sundry good reasons fairly tightly moderated by the Admin team.

Thank you sir for that clarification. It sure looks like, feels like and smells like stalking.

Tell me about infants. Are they damned and in need of salvation in that state?

 

[Squire Robertsson]

I've been the mod of the forum since July, 2013. I've sought (though at times failed) to keep the forum on an even keel. It's not "stalking". It's letting you know when you're getting close to a red\yellow card.

As for your question, I'll let others answer you.

Thank you sir for that clarification. It sure looks like, feels like and smells like stalking.

Tell me about infants. Are they damned and in need of salvation in that state?

 

[vooks]

I've been the mod of the forum since July, 2013. I've sought (though at times failed) to keep the forum on an even keel. It's not "stalking". It's letting you know when you're getting close to a red\yellow card.

As for your question, I'll let others answer you.

Mods don't hold opinion,s beliefs or views? Or are they not supposed to express them?

 

[TCassidy]

Mods don't hold opinion,s beliefs or views? Or are they not supposed to express them?

Nobody, especially the Admins and Moderators, owes you an answer. If we choose not to respond to your posts, that is our business. Not yours. If you think anybody owes you an answer you are on the wrong forum and I suggest you find another place to do your posting.

 

[DHK]

Excuse me sir,
What is the point of the author of Hebrws warning Christians against an implausible sin?

Wait,it was warning the false believers, right? Well, they are already damned so what's the point, and in any case, why tell the true believers all this?

There are many things that are impossible, even to God.
For example, "It is impossible for God to lie."
For us, God has given us some commands which may be impossible to keep until we get to glory:

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
--This "perfection" will only come to fruition when Christ comes. In this sinful body, no matter how hard you try you cannot keep this command fully.

1 Peter 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
--Are you as holy as God is holy?
Of course not, and again you will never be completely removed from sin until you reach heaven.

Yes, we are given commands and warnings that we cannot completely obey. There are many of them. As I explained in my previous post the entire premise of the book of Hebrews was to contrast an OT system that they could not go back to, to the NT system that they had come to.
The key words in the Book of Hebrews is "better than. The New is better than the Old.[/b]
And "let us go on..."

One more thing that is impossible.
It is impossible for eternal to become temporary.

 

[vooks]

Nobody, especially the Admins and Moderators, owes you an answer. If we choose not to respond to your posts, that is our business. Not yours. If you think anybody owes you an answer you are on the wrong forum and I suggest you find another place to do your posting.

Who said anybody let alone a mod owes me an answer?

A mod is first a member like myself and secondly a member. They are free to answer or not to answer any question directed at them. All I wondered is whether there is some (un)written rule banning them from expressing their beliefs,views,suggestions,theology

 

[vooks]

There are many things that are impossible, even to God.
For example, "It is impossible for God to lie."

True but that's beside the point.
What's the purpose of a warning against an implausible threat?
How is that a warning in the first place?

For us, God has given us some commands which may be impossible to keep until we get to glory:

Probably true but nobody is interrogating impossibilities. Rather it is the logic of a warning against an impossible outcome.

For instance;
Matthew 5:22 (KJV)
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
This is a warning. If whoever says 'thou fool' is in zero danger of hell fire, then warning him against hell is pretty useless.

The primary purpose of a warning is to provide incentive to avoid its consequences, and if a warning can't provide such incentive, it ceases being a warning. Furthermore, if the subject believes the consequences to be unrealistic, the warning can't provide any incentive to him/her.

In short, warnings with implausible/impossible/unrealistic consequences are impotent

Yes, we are given commands and warnings that we cannot completely obey.

Again, the point is warning against apostasy are horrendously meaningless if believers can't apostasize.

There are many of them. As I explained in my previous post the entire premise of the book of Hebrews was to contrast an OT system that they could not go back to, to the NT system that they had come to.
The key words in the Book of Hebrews is "better than. The New is better than the Old.[/b]
And "let us go on..."

Which is still meaningless if it is entirely impossible to go back. What you need to appreciate is that the nature of these warnings,me specially Hebrews 10 is that the consequences of ignoring them is eternal damnation, and not merely shifting theological gears

Look
Hebrews 10:29-31 (KJV)
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Do you honestly think the 'sorer punishment' is anything short of eternal?

One more thing that is impossible.
It is impossible for eternal to become temporary.

Tell me about infants. Do they possess eternal life?

 

[JonC]

Brother Vooks, please understand when I say this that I am not calling you a fool. But you have made an astounding number of foolish statements on this post. This appears to be merely a lack of maturity on your part, which is understandable. As you grow in Christ Scripture will become less "vague" and more applicable to your understanding.

On the contrary, you @JonC δοῦλος know how God works in infants. You are either ignorant of this aspect of your theology or worse, you conveniently pretend to be ignorant.

Before we get into that, let's summarize your theory;

1. Transition to eternal life is one-way; you can move from death to life but never from life to death

2. The 'gifting' of eternal life is conditional but the eternal life is unconditional, meaning once you receive it, you don't need to do nothing to keep it

When I asked you how one receives eternal life, I was not looking for a lengthy diatribe or a vague 'look it up in John's epistles', it was a rhetorical question meant to provoke your thinking.!

I never offered you a theory. I offered you Scripture (which you found objectionable and “vague”). There is a reason that I did not offer you a theory. I knew in your own mental dialogue you would come up with one for us to discuss.

Your error here is simply in that what you view as a “transition” Scripture presents as a new act of creating (a new birth, regeneration, etc.). Again, your thoughts wander too much in to your own philosophical musings to be taken seriously here. At this point in your life, perhaps it is best for you to master the basics instead of tackling deeper topics. I encourage you to take a break from what appears to be a self-absorbed method of “study” and open your mind to Scripture.

In principle I have found it unproductive to discuss Scripture with those so foolish as to lean on their own understanding, so I generally direct those to a book of the Bible. We are told not to cast our riches before swine, and this principle remains. One cannot discuss wisdom with fools as the fool is typically dogmatically foolish. Anyway, that’s just a general principle.

Let's now look at your theory deals with infants. We can extrapolate infants from how God deals with adults;
<snipped foolish assumptions for brevity>

Again, I didn’t offer you a theory (I offered you Scripture). I never said that I do not understand whether or not infants have eternal life. I said that I do not know how God works in the lives of infants. Here would have been appropriate to question my evasiveness or vagueness (why I did not say either way).

The reason that I didn’t give you a proper answer to that question regarding infants is that you seem so confused in your theology I thought it best to bypass that discussion. After you have gained a biblical understanding of salvation, then perhaps we can discuss this issue. But as my position differs from many on the BB, it would be better to discuss it on another thread altogether. Still, my suggestion remains that before you venture into that type of study it would be better for you to study the Word of God for all of those questions you have about salvation.

The God of your theory damns infants @JonC δοῦλος. What a God!

Again, the argument in your own mind has led you to a foolish and incorrect assumption. Your first mistake is that I believe God damns infants. And of course, your second was ridiculing God regardless of what you believe my understanding to be.

This is why I hold to that principle of not discussing some issues with the weak and foolish. Just imagine if you were one of those (weak and foolish) how much more you may have demeaned the God of your salvation through a disagreement with a theory I may have offered. I would be guilty in a sense for your arrogant statements against God simply for trying to explain what I suspected was beyond your comprehension. This, of course, is not the case here as I have not offered any such theory. You came up with that one on you own.

I think that your insults would be better directed at me than at God. Right now you believe that God is one who “makes mistakes.” But as you grow in Christ and gain knowledge through walking with God, I am confident that this will change. Don’t get discouraged, brother, just keep in the Word and in prayer. Stay in the fundamental things of Christ until you come to a better understanding and then venture onto to secondary things, otherwise you run the risk of depending on your own understanding and philosophies rather than standing on the gospel of Christ.

Again:

The God of your theory damns infants @JonC δοῦλος. What a God!

Brother, I trust that your statement here was merely an unlearned attempt to highlight what you erroneously assumed to be my position, not that you reject the God I worship (although this appears to be a denouncement of salvation on your part, I think it obvious that this was not your intent). Here I would encourage you to think carefully about what you would write before putting "pen to paper." You do not need to be careful not to offend me, you won't. But I do think that you need to show more respect when it comes to speaking of God. Again, this comes with maturity.

Like I indicated, until you comprehend and develop a better understanding of your own salvation (not that you are saved – that’s granted – but in God’s work in salvation) I think it better to shy away from discussing more philosophical and theoretical issues. And again, I suggest reading John and his epistles.

If you would like a more detailed reading plan to help you grow in the faith and perhaps discover the answers to these questions then please feel free to shoot me a PM. I'll help you in any way I can. I promise you, brother Vooks, that the more you prayerfully and earnestly study God's Word the less meaningless and vague it will become to you. You will find yourself leaving behind your theories and philosophies in favor of God's Word and you will gain this wisdom that seems to escape your grasp.

 

[annsni]

The key thing that God has said that has shown me that I am saved without question and that He is greater than my sin are the verses that tell me that the Spirit is given as a guarantee for my salvation.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 "And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee."

2 Corinthians 5:4-5 "For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee."

Ephesians 1:13-14 "In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory."

Hebrews 6:16-18 "For people swear by something greater than themselves, and in all their disputes an oath is final for confirmation. So when God desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable character of his purpose, he guaranteed it with an oath, so that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us."

 

[vooks]

Brother Vooks, please understand when I say this that I am not calling you a fool. But you have made an astounding number of foolish statements on this post. This appears to be merely a lack of maturity on your part, which is understandable. As you grow in Christ Scripture will become less "vague" and more applicable to your understanding.

I'm a moron. I have the IQ of a mentally retarded marine invertabrate.

I never offered you a theory. I offered you Scripture (which you found objectionable and “vague”). There is a reason that I did not offer you a theory. I knew in your own mental dialogue you would come up with one for us to discuss.

A theory by any other name is a theory

Your error here is simply in that what you view as a “transition” Scripture presents as a new act of creating (a new birth, regeneration, etc.). Again, your thoughts wander too much in to your own philosophical musings to be taken seriously here. At this point in your life, perhaps it is best for you to master the basics instead of tackling deeper topics. I encourage you to take a break from what appears to be a self-absorbed method of “study” and open your mind to Scripture.

Thank you for your ultra-wise wisdom filled counsel. May I suggest the same to you? Or are you in no need of the same?

In principle I have found it unproductive to discuss Scripture with those so foolish as to lean on their own understanding, so I generally direct those to a book of the Bible.

I also do that, in fact, that's my strategy when I can't withstand the wisdom of my opponent. But Holy Spirit rebuked this stupidity and I seldom do that.

We are told not to cast our riches before swine, and this principle remains.

I lost count of the many times Jehovah's Witnesses invoked that verse when I tore through their theories.

One cannot discuss wisdom with fools as the fool is typically dogmatically foolish. Anyway, that’s just a general principle.

Am a retard. No need milking it further

Again, I didn’t offer you a theory (I offered you Scripture).

Yeah right, even Pharisees 'offered scriptures'. Christ called them what they were; traditions of men

I never said that I do not understand whether or not infants have eternal life. I said that I do not know how God works in the lives of infants. Here would have been appropriate to question my evasiveness or vagueness (why I did not say either way).

And not knowing is exactly the same as not understanding. Can you understand something you don't know? Funny guy

The reason that I didn’t give you a proper answer to that question regarding infants is that you seem so confused in your theology I thought it best to bypass that discussion.

I know enough English to understand, 'no comments'. And enough as well to see through confusion. You a were stupefied and you had to lie to keep your theories

After you have gained a biblical understanding of salvation, then perhaps we can discuss this issue.

I have seen more intelligent excuses

But as my position differs from many on the BB, it would be better to discuss it on another thread altogether.

Who cares? Since when did Truth become a democracy?

Still, my suggestion remains that before you venture into that type of study it would be better for you to study the Word of God for all of those questions you have about salvation.

And my suggestion is you quit lying blatantly. Fear God for once!
You don't know something you understand?

Again, the argument in your own mind has led you to a foolish and incorrect assumption.

The only assumption I made was that you are humble enough to confess your lies

Your first mistake is that I believe God damns infants. And of course, your second was ridiculing God regardless of what you believe my understanding to be.

Your unique belief in this matter is now esotericism, only revealed to sages, right?

This is why I hold to that principle of not discussing some issues with the weak and foolish.

They have a word for that, 'coward'

Just imagine if you were one of those (weak and foolish) how much more you may have demeaned the God of your salvation through a disagreement with a theory I may have offered.

The God of your theories damns infants . Be proud of it.

I would be guilty in a sense for your arrogant statements against God simply for trying to explain what I suspected was beyond your comprehension. This, of course, is not the case here as I have not offered any such theory. You came up with that one on you own.

Paul was a wise man, never ashamed of the gospel...unlike modern theorists here

I think that your insults would be better directed at me than at God. Right now you believe that God is one who “makes mistakes.” But as you grow in Christ and gain knowledge through walking with God, I am confident that this will change. Don’t get discouraged, brother, just keep in the Word and in prayer. Stay in the fundamental things of Christ until you come to a better understanding and then venture onto to secondary things, otherwise you run the risk of depending on your own understanding and philosophies rather than standing on the gospel of Christ.

Ashamed of your beliefs. BB is a funny place

Brother, I trust that your statement here was merely an unlearned attempt to highlight what you erroneously assumed to be my position, not that you reject the God I worship (although this appears to be a denouncement of salvation on your part, I think it obvious that this was not your intent).

I'm an apostate. Say it...a moron, a fool, a retard and now an apostate...I'm antichrist

Here I would encourage you to think carefully about what you would write before putting "pen to paper." You do not need to be careful not to offend me, you won't. But I do think that you need to show more respect when it comes to speaking of God. Again, this comes with maturity.

I also prescribe maturity pills to you. It is extremely hard to see yourself. There is the bit about logs and splinter

Like I indicated, until you comprehend and develop a better understanding of your own salvation (not that you are saved – that’s granted – but in God’s work in salvation) I think it better to shy away from discussing more philosophical and theoretical issues. And again, I suggest reading John and his epistles.

Even better, suggest that I read the entire Scriptures 100fold. The God of your theories damns infants. You made that up

If you would like a more detailed reading plan to help you grow in the faith and perhaps discover the answers to these questions then please feel free to shoot me a PM. I'll help you in any way I can. I promise you, brother Vooks, that the more you prayerfully and earnestly study God's Word the less meaningless and vague it will become to you. You will find yourself leaving behind your theories and philosophies in favor of God's Word and you will gain this wisdom that seems to escape your grasp.

The God of your theories damns infants. No amount of counsel or advice changes that. No amount of calling me 'brother' changes that.

 

[vooks]

The key thing that God has said that has shown me that I am saved without question and that He is greater than my sin are the verses that tell me that the Spirit is given as a guarantee for my salvation.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 "And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee."

2 Corinthians 5:4-5 "For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee."

Ephesians 1:13-14 "In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory."

Hebrews 6:16-18 "For people swear by something greater than themselves, and in all their disputes an oath is final for confirmation. So when God desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable character of his purpose, he guaranteed it with an oath, so that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us."

Amen
Hebrews6:4-7 (KJV)
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

The subject of these verse. Tell me one thing you posses that he didn't, yet he ends up burning

 

[annsni]

Amen
Hebrews6:4-7 (KJV)
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

The subject of these verse. Tell me one thing you posses that he didn't, yet he ends up burning

Note that it bears thorns and briers. Does a vine that is grafted to the true vine produce thorns and briers?

 

[vooks]

Note that it bears thorns and briers. Does a vine that is grafted to the true vine produce thorns and briers?

The subject here is the LAND/EARTH not the plants. It has some echoes of the parable of the sower but I digress.

The question again is,can you name a single experience or advantage you have over the subject of these verse?
Have you had ALL these?
1. enlightened,
2 and have tasted of the heavenly gift,
3. and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
4. And have tasted the good word of God,
5. Tasted the powers of the world to come,

 

[annsni]

The subject here is the LAND/EARTH not the plants. It has some echoes of the parable of the sower but I digress.

The question again is,can you name a single experience or advantage you have over the subject of these verse?
Have you had ALL these?
1. enlightened,
2 and have tasted of the heavenly gift,
3. and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
4. And have tasted the good word of God,
5. Tasted the powers of the world to come,

I also had one thing these don't have: I was made a new creation and my salvation was guaranteed by God with the Holy Spirit.

 

[JonC]

I'm a moron. I have the IQ of a mentally retarded marine invertabrate.

A theory by any other name is a theory


Thank you for your ultra-wise wisdom filled counsel. May I suggest the same to you? Or are you in no need of the same?


I also do that, in fact, that's my strategy when I can't withstand the wisdom of my opponent. But Holy Spirit rebuked this stupidity and I seldom do that.

I lost count of the many times Jehovah's Witnesses invoked that verse when I tore through their theories.

Am a retard. No need milking it further
Yeah right, even Pharisees 'offered scriptures'. Christ called them what they were; traditions of men

And not knowing is exactly the same as not understanding. Can you understand something you don't know? Funny guy

I know enough English to understand, 'no comments'. And enough as well to see through confusion. You a were stupefied and you had to lie to keep your theories

I have seen more intelligent excuses

Who cares? Since when did Truth become a democracy?

And my suggestion is you quit lying blatantly. Fear God for once!
You don't know something you understand?

The only assumption I made was that you are humble enough to confess your lies

Your unique belief in this matter is now esotericism, only revealed to sages, right?

They have a word for that, 'coward'

The God of your theories damns infants . Be proud of it.

Paul was a wise man, never ashamed of the gospel...unlike modern theorists here


Ashamed of your beliefs. BB is a funny place

I'm an apostate. Say it...a moron, a fool, a retard and now an apostate...I'm antichrist

I also prescribe maturity pills to you. It is extremely hard to see yourself. There is the bit about logs and splinter

Even better, suggest that I read the entire Scriptures 100fold. The God of your theories damns infants. You made that up


The God of your theories damns infants. No amount of counsel or advice changes that. No amount of calling me 'brother' changes that.

You misunderstand, brother Vooks. I wasn't talking about you specifically. I was arguing in abstract.

All of us are maturing to degrees as we now see dimly what will once be made clear (this is also in the Bible. There is a sense where we are being conformed into the image of Christ. Some people call it "sanctification."). I am offering to help you along in your journey. If you recall, it was you that were asking the questions - not me. And rather than my "wisdom" what did I offer? Scripture.

I'm not sure why you are stuck on the idea that God "damns infants." While I find the conclusion repulsive (my wife and I lost a child in a late miscarriage but found comfort during that time in God's wisdom and provision), I also understand some hold that view. It doesn't seem that you do, and I'm not sure why you are adamant to thrust that view on me. But you seem to manifest your own opponents and project them to others here. When I speak of a maturity issue I do not mean physical maturity, but spiritual maturity.

You have made several statements that leads me to believe you have not studied (or at least have not known what you have studied) God's Word. One was the statement that God made a mistake with Israel in the wilderness. The other is this constant rejection of the passages I offered as "theory." And, of course, there is this habit of reading into my own views thoughts foreign to my theology. We could continue from there to proper Christian discourse as presented in Scripture. The list goes on, brother.

So while I do not know where you stand in your faith, I do know that there is room to grow. We are not perfected and are called to help each other along the way. I'm here to help you.

 

[revmwc]

The subject here is the LAND/EARTH not the plants. It has some echoes of the parable of the sower but I digress.

The question again is,can you name a single experience or advantage you have over the subject of these verse?
Have you had ALL these?
1. enlightened,
2 and have tasted of the heavenly gift,
3. and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
4. And have tasted the good word of God,
5. Tasted the powers of the world to come,

Those who were enlightened, those who have tasted of the heavenly gift and were partakers of the Holy Ghost. Those who have been saved, those who have received the gifts which the Holy Spirit gives to every believer. Those who have the Holy Spirit indwelling in them, it is impossible for these he says.

So what is impossible?
The whole point of this portion is speaking of growing into maturity which brings with it eternal rewards. So what happens after salvation? We are to grow in spiritual maturity many of these Hebrews had failed to grow,many had fallen away from serving,many had even considered going back to Judaism. Could they be restored well the writer in Chapter 5 in verse 12 says yes. Verse 13 says they can take in meat, strong doctrinal teaching belongs to the mature.

Verse 9 of chapter 6 the writer says they can grow into maturity. Better things are expected of believers. The things that is the rewards and benefits which accompany salvation belong to those who are saved. Though the writer thus spoke. So he hasn’t been speaking of salvation in this section of the epistle. So we cannot take verse 6 to be saying a believer can be lost and then not be saved again once they have been enlightened. No it is not dealing with loss of salvation and not being saved over again.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 shows us our works after salvation that is our reward. Those who fail to grow, fail to do good works will receive wood, hay and straw! While those who grow and do works of intrinsic value will receive gold, silver and precious stones.

We see the writer of Hebrews in verses 7-8, deals with the way fruit is produced. Just as believers produce fruit, good fruit comes when the earth drinks the rain, and as the plants are dressed the blessing of God is received. For believers rewards of intrinsic value come as they produce works of intrinsic vale and grow into maturity. But thorns and thistle are rejected, those believers who never grow and never produce fruit, or who produce little fruit and fail to grow. Believers who fail to grow into maturity or who fall away and fail to confess their sins, produce fruit (thorns and thistle) which will be burned (wood, hay, straw).

Those who fall away have many things happen:

They lose their testimony. They haven’t lost their salvation though have they? Confession of sin is just that confession, the Greek word homologo is used in 1 John 1:9 and means to acknowledge. Believers are to name the wrong we have done the sin we have committed and God forgives it. But Salvation is repentance, right, the Greek word is METONOIA meaning a change of mind. In Salvation we turn from unbelief to belief in Christ, we have a change of mind. Turn from a life dominated by the sin nature and sinfulness. Turning to a life of following Christ and having the indwelling Holy Spirit in us. That only occurs one time at Salvation. It cannot be repeated, salvation is a once and for ever thing. Those who have been saved, who have been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift and were indwelt by the Holy Spirit, have no need of being saved that is no need of repentance (turning away from unbelief) turning from their lost state. For they are already saved they have just fallen away.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Because of the 30 day suspension of the OP, I am closing this thread.