Cannot believe?

[jbh28]

1 Cor 3:15, If any man's work does not abide the fire (unbelief) he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire. If there is anything that you do not believe, do you conclude that it is taken out of context?

Well, first of all "unbelief" isn't there. You added that in and shouldn't have. The passage is speaking about the testing of our works.

"Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
(1 Corinthians 3:12-15 ESV)

Our works will be judged. Those that survive the fire will be rewarded(vs 14). Those works that don't survive the fire will be burned up, though we will still be saved. Nothing about unbelief there. You added the word "unbelief" there and shouldn't have. So you have 2 errors. Out of context, definitely. And you added a word.

Are you sure that the condemnation in John 3:18 is condemned to everlasting punishment, or maybe it is condemned from a fellowship with God and not condemned from heaven.

Well, first of all that's was "condemnation" means. another word could be damnation.*

Here's my reply when you said this in another thread...

What does the context better support? We cannot simply say "well it could mean" and then dismiss the passage. We are to read Scripture as it has been intended to be read. What did John mean (and more specifically Jesus) when he said...

"whoever believes in him may have eternal life."

So we are speaking of eternal life.

"whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life"

will not perish but have eternal life. "but" comparison of opposites. eternal life vs eternal_______ (death)

"For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him"

Still in the context of eternal life. Still in the context of not perishing. so obviously "saved" here is being saved from perishing. Jesus didn't come to condemn the world to perish.

"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

There's nothing about fellowship with God here in the context. The best and only contextually supported understanding of condemnation is condemned to eternal punishment.

 

[convicted1]

Well, first of all "unbelief" isn't there. You added that in and shouldn't have. The passage is speaking about the testing of our works.

"Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
(1 Corinthians 3:12-15 ESV)

Our works will be judged. Those that survive the fire will be rewarded(vs 14). Those works that don't survive the fire will be burned up, though we will still be saved. Nothing about unbelief there. You added the word "unbelief" there and shouldn't have. So you have 2 errors. Out of context, definitely. And you added a word.



Well, first of all that's was "condemnation" means. another word could be damnation.*

Here's my reply when you said this in another thread...

Anutter good post!! :thumbs:


I just wanted to let ya know that I am still on your bandwagon.......for now. :laugh:

 

[Brother Jeremy Slone]

If I may add my thoughts looking at 1 John 5:1 Whosoever Believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God:... also 1 John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. I believe who ever Believes and confesses is already regenerated. I don't think man will do this out side of being quickened while he was dead in trespasses and sins. I believe this does connect him to the salvation he has in Christ that Christ secured for him on the cross. I think this is why Paul said in 2Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Look at 1 Timothy 4:6 If thou put the brethern in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.
This verse establishing that Timothy is already a child of God and a minister but consider verse 16 of the same chapter. Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. showing that the word saved here is not talking about eternal life because they already have it. The gospel does save but not for heaven and immortal glory because Christ accomplished that. Though the promises are given to the believer through the hearing of the gospel where he can rest from his labors and put his faith in Christ.

Why does one believe and not another? Election. How does one believe? Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Is this mighty power not regeneration, a quickening, a birth of the Spirit? Ephesians 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
The same Power that raised Christ's dead body from the grave is the same power that raises us out of a dead state to believe in Christ. We understand we are justified by faith and therefore that is why Christ rose the 3rd day for our justification. Because it is the same Power that did both. The same power that will raise out our dead body as well from the grave. Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. That is a work of God in regeneration and then they will have eyes to see with and ears to hear with and connect to the gospel when they hear it and put their faith in Christ and trust in his finished work. Proverbs 20:12 The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the Lord hath made both of them. This is how I see it brethern

 

[convicted1]

If I may add my thoughts looking at 1 John 5:1 Whosoever Believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God:... also 1 John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. I believe who ever Believes and confesses is already regenerated. I don't think man will do this out side of being quickened while he was dead in trespasses and sins. I believe this does connect him to the salvation he has in Christ that Christ secured for him on the cross. I think this is why Paul said in 2Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Look at 1 Timothy 4:6 If thou put the brethern in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.
This verse establishing that Timothy is already a child of God and a minister but consider verse 16 of the same chapter. Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. showing that the word saved here is not talking about eternal life because they already have it. The gospel does save but not for heaven and immortal glory because Christ accomplished that. Though the promises are given to the believer through the hearing of the gospel where he can rest from his labors and put his faith in Christ.

Why does one believe and not another? Election. How does one believe? Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Is this mighty power not regeneration, a quickening, a birth of the Spirit? Ephesians 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
The same Power that raised Christ's dead body from the grave is the same power that raises us out of a dead state to believe in Christ. We understand we are justified by faith and therefore that is why Christ rose the 3rd day for our justification. Because it is the same Power that did both. The same power that will raise out our dead body as well from the grave. Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. That is a work of God in regeneration and then they will have eyes to see with and ears to hear with and connect to the gospel when they hear it and put their faith in Christ and trust in his finished work. Proverbs 20:12 The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the Lord hath made both of them. This is how I see it brethern

With all due respect, Brother Jeremy, regeneration does not precede salvation. A person isn't quickened(made alive), and then later placed in Christ. When one is saved(regenerated), it is because they have been grafted into the True Vine, Jesus Christ. If a soul is spiritually dead, a la a corpse, then that soul is dormant, and can do neither good nor bad. Go to a morgue, and witness to those dead bodies, and see how many responses you get. Better yet, take a devil worshipper with you, and both of you try to convince them to join your ranks, and see what happens. A spiritually dead soul as yall call it, couldn't even rebel against God, seeing that it is dead. Spiritual death= seperation from God, and not a corpse.

 

[Brother Jeremy Slone]

With all due respect, Brother Jeremy, regeneration does not precede salvation.

I believe it does here in time and used the scriptures I did to help support that. Though I would agree that our salvation was secure in the mind of God before the foundation of the World and was accomplished on Calvary's hill 2 Timothy 1:9-10 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life immortality to light through the gospel:

A person isn't quickened(made alive), and then later placed in Christ.

A person outside of Christ is spirituall dead/separated and then is quickened or made alive in Christ.

If a soul is spiritually dead, a la a corpse, then that soul is dormant, and can do neither good nor bad. Go to a morgue, and witness to those dead bodies, and see how many responses you get. Better yet, take a devil worshipper with you, and both of you try to convince them to join your ranks, and see what happens. A spiritually dead soul as yall call it, couldn't even rebel against God, seeing that it is dead. Spiritual death= seperation from God, and not a corpse.

Your kind of confusing me here. When we preach we preach to living people and some hear and some do not. Those that do not are dead spiritually or separated spiritually from God. Matthew 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. Is this talking about those that naturally can hear or those that are alive spiritually to hear what Christ has to say? You said yourself quickened means made alive. But the question is this! Can a man outside of Christ do anything pleasing to God of his own merit? Can a man be pleasing to God that is not Spiritually minded? Can he be Spiritually minded before he is regenerated to receive the spiritual things of God? Romans 8:5-8 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. So it takes regeneration in order to give a Spiritual mind to the carnal man that is spiritually bankrupt.

 

[Iconoclast]

I believe it does here in time and used the scriptures I did to help support that. Though I would agree that our salvation was secure in the mind of God before the foundation of the World and was accomplished on Calvary's hill 2 Timothy 1:9-10 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life immortality to light through the gospel: A person outside of Christ is spirituall dead/separated and then is quickened or made alive in Christ. Your kind of confusing me here. When we preach we preach to living people and some hear and some do not. Those that do not are dead spiritually or separated spiritually from God. Matthew 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. Is this talking about those that naturally can hear or those that are alive spiritually to hear what Christ has to say? You said yourself quickened means made alive. But the question is this! Can a man outside of Christ do anything pleasing to God of his own merit? Can a man be pleasing to God that is not Spiritually minded? Can he be Spiritually minded before he is regenerated to receive the spiritual things of God? Romans 8:5-8 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. So it takes regeneration in order to give a Spiritual mind to the carnal man that is spiritually bankrupt.

:thumbs::applause::thumbsup::applause:

 

[Winman]

Your kind of confusing me here. When we preach we preach to living people and some hear and some do not. Those that do not are dead spiritually or separated spiritually from God. Matthew 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. Is this talking about those that naturally can hear or those that are alive spiritually to hear what Christ has to say? You said yourself quickened means made alive. But the question is this! Can a man outside of Christ do anything pleasing to God of his own merit? Can a man be pleasing to God that is not Spiritually minded? Can he be Spiritually minded before he is regenerated to receive the spiritual things of God? Romans 8:5-8 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. So it takes regeneration in order to give a Spiritual mind to the carnal man that is spiritually bankrupt.

Romans 8:5-8 is often misinterpreted. It is not saying that the unregenerate man cannot repent and turn from being carnally minded.

Pro 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

Here God commands an unregenerate man to turn or repent at his reproof, and AFTERWARD God will pour out his Spirit to this man.

A perfect example of this is Cornelius. He was neither saved nor had the indwelling Holy Spirit, but he feared God and obeyed him. God heard his prayers and sent an angel to tell him to send for Peter whereby he and his household would hear words that they might be saved. So, this proves the unregenerate man can turn or repent at God's reproof and be saved.

Romans 8:5-8 is simply saying that while a man minds the things of the flesh he cannot please God, nor be subject to his laws. It does not say a man is unable to repent at God's reproof and be spiritually minded. Scripture such as Pro 1:23 and the story of Cornelius proves this. Another example is the Philipian jailer, who turned to God and desired to be saved, yet he had not yet believed and received the Spirit.

It is nowhere taught the unregenerate man cannot repent and receive the Spirit, in fact, the contrary is shown.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

This question by Paul demands the answer that these Galatians first believed, and that by believeing received the Holy Spirit. No man can be regenerated or spiritually alive without the indwelling Holy Spirit. This proves the unregenerate man can turn at God's reproof and receive the Spirit, just as Pro 1:23 says.

 

[Brother Jeremy Slone]

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Ok, first of all the hearing here is evidence of regeneration. Proverbs 20:12 tells us the hearing ear the Lord hath made. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit. Can't have the fruit of the Spirit with out the Spirit.

Now lets consider here the Spirit the regenrated person receives by the hearing of faith.

Paul says in 1 Corinthians 2:4-5 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
So the Spirit they receive is the gospel Paul preached. Now in 2:14 says the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. What made the difference in us. Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; What was our state before God quickened us. Ephesians 2:3-4 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience; Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath even as others. This is why the natural man doesn't receive spiritual things of God because by nature before being quickened he was a child of wrath. Thats why Christ said in John 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. These Jews here did not receive the truth because they were not of the truth and did not have ears to hear with and faith to receive it. There fore we must be quickened, made alive (regeneration) in order to receive the preaching Paul did in the power and demonstration of the Spirit. Lets consider 1 John 4:1 Beloved, Believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. We that are born of God receive the things that are of God. We must first be made alive in Christ to receive the things of Christ that saves us from doubt, lies, pitfalls of satan, and false doctrines that glorfies the creature more than the creator. If it be of works it is no longer of Grace. Grace is the unmerited favor of God given to undeserving sinners. If I glory it will not be in that I believed or in that I repented. Because I believed by the power of God and I repented being led by the goodness of God. My believing and repenting was not my works but the work of God done in me. Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God: This was not of the natural man but a gift given to the regenerated man. Not what I did but what God did in me by the working of his mighty power. 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. I will not be boasting in that I believed but boasting in Christ that he had mercy on me by doing a work in me that caused me to believe. 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God ordained that we should walk in them. Thats why it says in 1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ not going to be born of God but is born of God and in 1 John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, Not that God will then dwell in him but that God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

Proverbs 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the Lord.

 

[Winman]

Ok, first of all the hearing here is evidence of regeneration. Proverbs 20:12 tells us the hearing ear the Lord hath made. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit. Can't have the fruit of the Spirit with out the Spirit.

I disagree, the very scripture Calvinism presents as proof unregenerate man cannot believe actually proves he can.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Again, this verse easily proves that hearing the gospel and believeing it precedes receiving the Spirit. Eph 1:13 is even clearer;

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

This verse is very straightforward, and shows a man receives the Spirit AFTER hearing the gospel and believeing it.

You cannot be regenerated or spiritually alive until you receive the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

This passage, which Calvinism presents to prove unregenerate man cannot believe, actually proves he can. It says that we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit if the Spirit DWELLS IN US. If the Spirit does not dwell in you, you are in the flesh.

So, you have a problem. A person without the indwelling Spirit is in the flesh, yet Paul clearly shows a person receives the Spirit by hearing and believeing the gospel. How then can you be regenerated before receiving the Spirit? You can't. If you do not have the Spirit dwelling in you, you are in the flesh and not regenerated.

Jhn 1:12 also proves the unregenerate man can believe.

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

This verse says that to those that receive Jesus and believe on his name, to these persons God gives the power to BECOME a son of God. This clearly shows an unregenerate person can receive and believe on Jesus, and if he does so, then AFTERWARD God gives them the power to BECOME a son of God.

John 20:31 also shows that the unregenerate can believe on Jesus, and if they do so they will be made alive.

Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

The scriptures do not show a person is made alive or regenerated to have the ability to believe as Calvinism falsely teaches, they say the exact opposite, that a man must first believe to have LIFE.

And again, God says to those who repent and turn at his reproof, to them he will pour out his Spirit.

Pro 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

This verse shows that a man must first turn and repent at God's reproof and THEN God pours out his Spirit upon them.

There is not one verse in all of scripture that says a man is spiritually alive before he first believes and then receives the Spirit. I challenge you to show this, you can't.

Show me any verse that says a man is spiritually alive before believeing. I have just showed you numerous verses that shows a man fiirst believes and afterwards receives the Spirit, has life, and becomes a son of God.

Let's see it.

 

[kyredneck]

It is a HUGE error to confuse the birth of the Spirit with the indwelling of the Spirit, the two are not the same. Indwelling/filling/baptism/gift of/sealed with, NOT the same as Jn 3:8 or Gal 4:29.

Example:

Cornelius BEFORE hearing the gospel and prior to coming to Christ:

2 a devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, who gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God always.

It is evident the law was already in his heart [Ro 2:13-15], God had already wrought within him [Jn 3:21].

Cornelius AFTER hearing and believing the gospel:

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all them that heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision that believed were amazed, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 10

There's several positions concerning this 'indwelling' of the Spirit also. Excerpts from:

Were Old Covenant Believers Indwelt by the Holy Spirit?
http://www.swbts.edu/resources//SWBTS/Resources/FacultyDocuments/Hamilton/them30_1.pdf

"James Hamilton teaches OT and NT at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary’s Houston Park Place Campus. An ordained Southern Baptist minister, he is a recent graduate of Southern Seminary in Louisville, KY, where he studied under Tom Schreiner."

“At least five positions have been taken on the issue of whether or not ordinary, individual members of the old covenant remnant were continually indwelt by the Spirit.

Some scholars assume that a sixth position exists, but I am yet to find an affirmation of this sixth position. Here I will list the five real and one alleged positions, giving a brief description and listing major proponents of each.

[1] On the issue of the Spirit’s role in the lives of believers, some scholars see basic continuity from the old to the new covenant. These authors argue that the old covenant remnant was both regenerate and indwelt by the Spirit. Adherents of this position include John Owen, B.B. Warfield, Sinclair Ferguson, Dan Fuller and Leon Wood.

[2] Another set of scholars agrees that old covenant believers experienced both regeneration and indwelling, but seek to incorporate texts like John 7:39 into their understanding by using language that allows for a greater or heightened experience of the Spirit under the new covenant. Nevertheless, these scholars see no fundamental change in the way believers experience the Spirit when the new covenant is inaugurated. Interpreters who can be placed here include Augustine, John Calvin, George Ladd, Dan Block and Wayne Grudem.

[3] The third position is the midpoint of the possible views. These scholars indicate that they see OT saints as regenerate by the Spirit but not indwelt by the Spirit. From statements in their writings, it seems best to place here Millard Erickson, J.I. Packer, Willem A. VanGemeren and Bruce Ware.

[4] The next position is for those who see the old covenant remnant as operated upon but not indwelt by the Spirit. Unlike those in the previous category, these scholars stop short of using the word regeneration with reference to the old covenant faithful. Articulators of this view include Martin Luther, Lewis Sperry Chafer, Craig Blaising, D.A. Carson and Michael Green.

[5] At the opposite end of the spectrum from those who affirm full continuity between the old and new covenant ministries of the Spirit would be those who affirm that the Spirit had nothing to do with the faithfulness of the old covenant remnant. Those who argue that OT saints were indwelt sometimes assume that this is the only alternative to their view, but I have not found anyone who takes this position.

 

[Winman]

It is a HUGE error to confuse the birth of the Spirit with the indwelling of the Spirit, the two are not the same. Indwelling/filling/baptism/gift of/sealed with, NOT the same as Jn 3:8 or Gal 4:29.

Let's look at those verses;

Jhn 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

How does this verse prove regeneration precedes faith? It does not even mention faith.

Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

This verse does not prove that regeneration precedes faith either. It also does not mention faith.

So, you are reading into these verses what they do not say. They do not support regeneration or spiritual life before faith whatsoever. However, John 20:31 clearly says you must believe to have life. This supports faith before regeneration.

Example:

Cornelius BEFORE hearing the gospel and prior to coming to Christ:

2 a devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, who gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God always.

It is evident the law was already in his heart [Ro 2:13-15], God had already wrought within him [Jn 3:21].

It is true that Cornelius had faith, but he was not spiritually alive. What did he have to be saved from if he was already alive? No, Cornelius had faith in God, but he still had to hear the gospel and believe before he received the Spirit and life.

Cornelius AFTER hearing and believing the gospel:

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all them that heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision that believed were amazed, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 10

Exactly, Cornelius received the Spirit AFTER believeing. And as Romans 8:10 says, the Spirit is life.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

You do not have life until you have the Spirit dwelling in you. Scripture does not support your view.

There's several positions concerning this 'indwelling' of the Spirit also. Excerpts from:

Were Old Covenant Believers Indwelt by the Holy Spirit?
http://www.swbts.edu/resources//SWBTS/Resources/FacultyDocuments/Hamilton/them30_1.pdf

"James Hamilton teaches OT and NT at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary’s Houston Park Place Campus. An ordained Southern Baptist minister, he is a recent graduate of Southern Seminary in Louisville, KY, where he studied under Tom Schreiner."

“At least five positions have been taken on the issue of whether or not ordinary, individual members of the old covenant remnant were continually indwelt by the Spirit.

Some scholars assume that a sixth position exists, but I am yet to find an affirmation of this sixth position. Here I will list the five real and one alleged positions, giving a brief description and listing major proponents of each.

[1] On the issue of the Spirit’s role in the lives of believers, some scholars see basic continuity from the old to the new covenant. These authors argue that the old covenant remnant was both regenerate and indwelt by the Spirit. Adherents of this position include John Owen, B.B. Warfield, Sinclair Ferguson, Dan Fuller and Leon Wood.

[2] Another set of scholars agrees that old covenant believers experienced both regeneration and indwelling, but seek to incorporate texts like John 7:39 into their understanding by using language that allows for a greater or heightened experience of the Spirit under the new covenant. Nevertheless, these scholars see no fundamental change in the way believers experience the Spirit when the new covenant is inaugurated. Interpreters who can be placed here include Augustine, John Calvin, George Ladd, Dan Block and Wayne Grudem.

[3] The third position is the midpoint of the possible views. These scholars indicate that they see OT saints as regenerate by the Spirit but not indwelt by the Spirit. From statements in their writings, it seems best to place here Millard Erickson, J.I. Packer, Willem A. VanGemeren and Bruce Ware.

[4] The next position is for those who see the old covenant remnant as operated upon but not indwelt by the Spirit. Unlike those in the previous category, these scholars stop short of using the word regeneration with reference to the old covenant faithful. Articulators of this view include Martin Luther, Lewis Sperry Chafer, Craig Blaising, D.A. Carson and Michael Green.

[5] At the opposite end of the spectrum from those who affirm full continuity between the old and new covenant ministries of the Spirit would be those who affirm that the Spirit had nothing to do with the faithfulness of the old covenant remnant. Those who argue that OT saints were indwelt sometimes assume that this is the only alternative to their view, but I have not found anyone who takes this position.

All these theories prove that Calvinists especially cannot deal with scripture that shows man can believe without the indwelling Spirit. But nearly all OT believers believed without the indwelling Spirit. And as John 7 shows, none of the believers in Jesus's day had the Spirit until after he was raised again and glorified.

Jhn 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

There were literally thousands of people who believed on Jesus before he rose from the dead, yet none of these people had the indwelling Holy Spirit and life.

Scripture does not support your view, it refutes it. You cannot provide even one verse of scripture that says a man is regenerated or spiritually alive before he believes, but there are MANY scriptures that show man first believes and AFTERWARD receives the Spirit and life.

Show even one verse that clearly states regeneration precedes faith, YOU CAN'T DO IT.

 

[Brother Jeremy Slone]

Very Interesting read for the link you gave Ky Redneck, I always considered these things but not with the best of clarity. I seen in scriptures what the Father did then what the Holy Spirit is doing now. For example In Matthew chapter 16
:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye I am?
:16 And Simon Peter answered amd said, Thou are the Christ, the Son of the living God.
:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed are thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, buy my Father which is in heaven.

I once heard verse 17 quoted one time with Holy Spirit instead of Father and it brought much of my attention to it.

Also a Good one to consider is John 5:37-38 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. And you have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

Another one: John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
Then also in 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: Showing the Spirit is what quickened his dead body form the grave and giving us the link in Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Also I believe this show us how we are first quickened inwardly before outwardly in the bodily resurrection like in Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, ( by grace ye are saved)

 

[Winman]

Very Interesting read for the link you gave Ky Redneck, I always considered these things but not with the best of clarity. I seen in scriptures what the Father did then what the Holy Spirit is doing now. For example In Matthew chapter 16
:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye I am?
:16 And Simon Peter answered amd said, Thou are the Christ, the Son of the living God.
:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed are thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, buy my Father which is in heaven.

I once heard verse 17 quoted one time with Holy Spirit instead of Father and it brought much of my attention to it.

Also a Good one to consider is John 5:37-38 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. And you have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

Another one: John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
Then also in 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: Showing the Spirit is what quickened his dead body form the grave and giving us the link in Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Also I believe this show us how we are first quickened inwardly before outwardly in the bodily resurrection like in Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, ( by grace ye are saved)

And none of these verses say regeneration precedes faith.

Show ANY verse that says regeneration precedes faith, you can't do it.

 

[convicted1]

I believe it does here in time and used the scriptures I did to help support that. Though I would agree that our salvation was secure in the mind of God before the foundation of the World and was accomplished on Calvary's hill 2 Timothy 1:9-10 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life immortality to light through the gospel:

Remember, regeneration means "new birth". One does not have the "new birth" and not have life. One does not have life outside of Jesus Christ. If I understand yall's side, one is given the "new birth", and with the "new birth", the ability to believe. When they are given the ability to believe, then are they placed in Christ. One does not have life until they first hear, and then believe in what they are hearing, the Gospel of their salvation that is. Hearing is what brings life, not life bringing hearing. Yall have it backwards, IMO.

A person outside of Christ is spirituall dead/separated and then is quickened or made alive in Christ.

I agree with this assessment.

Your kind of confusing me here. When we preach we preach to living people and some hear and some do not. Those that do not are dead spiritually or separated spiritually from God. Matthew 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. Is this talking about those that naturally can hear or those that are alive spiritually to hear what Christ has to say? You said yourself quickened means made alive. But the question is this! Can a man outside of Christ do anything pleasing to God of his own merit? Can a man be pleasing to God that is not Spiritually minded? Can he be Spiritually minded before he is regenerated to receive the spiritual things of God? Romans 8:5-8 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. So it takes regeneration in order to give a Spiritual mind to the carnal man that is spiritually bankrupt.

The point I was trying to make, is that on your side of the argument, one can not believe until they are regenerated/"new birth"/made alive, and then they can and will hear and believe. You have life outside of salvation, IMO. Yall state that a corpse can not hear God. By the same implication, a corpse can not do evil either. It is in a dormant state, and can do neither good nor bad. A dead soul being compared to a corpse would be the same thing. A dead soul, in comparison to a corpse, could not rebel against God either. It could do neither. A spiritually dead soul can, and does, hear God, and is brought to life after it believes what it hears.

Isaiah 55:3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.


John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

 

[convicted1]

Remember, regeneration means "new birth". One does not have the "new birth" and not have life. One does not have life outside of Jesus Christ. If I understand yall's side, one is given the "new birth", and with the "new birth", the ability to believe. When they are given the ability to believe, then are they placed in Christ. One does not have life until they first hear, and then believe in what they are hearing, the Gospel of their salvation that is. Hearing is what brings life, not life bringing hearing. Yall have it backwards, IMO.



I agree with this assessment.





The point I was trying to make, is that on your side of the argument, one can not believe until they are regenerated/"new birth"/made alive, and then they can and will hear and believe. You have life outside of salvation, IMO. Yall state that a corpse can not hear God. By the same implication, a corpse can not do evil either. It is in a dormant state, and can do neither good nor bad. A dead soul being compared to a corpse would be the same thing. A dead soul, in comparison to a corpse, could not rebel against God either. It could do neither. A spiritually dead soul can, and does, hear God, and is brought to life after it believes what it hears.

Isaiah 55:3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.


John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Brother Jeremy,

To break this muddled post to it's hub is this. Hearing is what brings regeneration/new birth/life, etc. Not regeneration/new birth/life bringing hearing.

 

[kyredneck]

Let's look at those verses;

Jhn 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

How does this verse prove regeneration precedes faith? It does not even mention faith.

Note the underscored section, literally, “the Spirit where he willeth doth blow”. Man is totally passive, his faith has zilch to do with determining the will of God.

But you're not ever going to accept that, your man-centered theology demands an active part by man in his eternal salvation. This man-centered theology totally blinds you to the obvious in the scriptures, like Jn 3:8 above, and also causes you to blatantly, conveniently ignore or omit the obvious in scripture as you did in your prior post with quoting Jn 1:12 alone without the qualifier of the next verse:

who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Jn 1:13

A crystal clear threefold denial by the Holy Spirit of any action on the part of man in his regeneration, but you choose to blatantly ignore/overlook/omit it in order to promote your man-centered theology and disparage the doctrines of grace.

Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

This verse does not prove that regeneration precedes faith either. It also does not mention faith.

No mention of faith because faith has nothing to do with regeneration as brought out in Jn 1:13 & 3:8. Man is 100% totally passive in it. It's also significant to note here that Ishmael persecuted Isaac at his weaning, at a very young age Isaac was already born from the Jerusalem that is above, who is our mother. At a very young age David was made to hope while on his mother's breast and John the Baptist was filled with the Spirit from his mother's womb. Yea Winman, whether you accept it or not changes nothing, the glorious truth is that “the Spirit where he willeth doth blow”.

So, you are reading into these verses what they do not say.

No, I see clearly what the passages teach. You're the blind one here for the reasons cited above.

They do not support regeneration or spiritual life before faith whatsoever.

.....and I'm about to get off of this endless merry-go-round.

However, John 20:31 clearly says you must believe to have life. This supports faith before regeneration.

No it doesn't, the scriptures clearly teach man is passive in regeneration and the scriptures don't contradict each other. Our faith has nothing to do with obtaining the free gift of eternal life, it has everything to do with experiencing the quality of eternal life. Compare:

The thief cometh not, but that he may steal, and kill, and destroy: I came that they may have life, and may have it abundantly. Jn 10:10

Fight the good fight of the faith, lay hold on the life eternal, whereunto thou wast called, and didst confess the good confession in the sight of many witnesses. 1 Tim 6:12

And I've got to go, there's several things that are pressing upon me to get done. Carry on with your Calvinist-slaying.

 

[Winman]

Note the underscored section, literally, “the Spirit where he willeth doth blow”. Man is totally passive, his faith has zilch to do with determining the will of God.

What you should note is the second phrase, which explains the first.

Jhn 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Jesus is speaking of the word of God. We can HEAR the Spirit. Faith comes by hearing the word of God, but the hearing is man's part. The giving of scripture is God's part. Without God's word no man could have faith, nevertheless, the man has to place his own faith in God's word, God does not believe for you.

It is like going to school, a good teacher can teach you what you do not know, but you must listen to learn. If you did learn you must give your teacher credit for imparting knowledge to you, but nevertheless you must pay attention and listen to receive this knowledge from your teacher.

]But you're not ever going to accept that, your man-centered theology demands an active part by man in his eternal salvation. This man-centered theology totally blinds you to the obvious in the scriptures, like Jn 3:8 above, and also causes you to blatantly, conveniently ignore or omit the obvious in scripture as you did in your prior post with quoting Jn 1:12 alone without the qualifier of the next verse:

who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Jn 1:13

A crystal clear threefold denial by the Holy Spirit of any action on the part of man in his regeneration, but you choose to blatantly ignore/overlook/omit it in order to promote your man-centered theology and disparage the doctrines of grace.

I do not deny that we are born of God, no man has the power to regenerate himself. Nevertheless, a man must receive Jesus and believe on his name before God gives him the power to become a son of God.

Man will always attempt to save himself through his own merit. But God's word convicts a man and makes him know he is a sinner. God's word also teaches a man that if he will place his faith in Jesus, then God will forgive all his sins and make him alive. You cannot be spritually alive until all your sins are forgiven. We are justified by faith, therefore faith must precede regeneration.

But you teach a man is made alive while he is still in sin, and then after being regenerated he places his faith in Christ and is justified. In your view, until a man places faith in Christ he is spiritually alive and spritually dead at the same moment! Absurd!

No mention of faith because faith has nothing to do with regeneration as brought out in Jn 1:13 & 3:8. Man is 100% totally passive in it. It's also significant to note here that Ishmael persecuted Isaac at his weaning, at a very young age Isaac was already born from the Jerusalem that is above, who is our mother. At a very young age David was made to hope while on his mother's breast and John the Baptist was filled with the Spirit from his mother's womb. Yea Winman, whether you accept it or not changes nothing, the glorious truth is that “the Spirit where he willeth doth blow”.

You do not have even one single verse in all of scripture that says a man must be regenerated to have the ability to believe. That is a totally false and man-made doctrine without any scriptural support. You cannot show it.

And all scriptures such as Jhn 20:31 says you must believe to have life.

No, I see clearly what the passages teach. You're the blind one here for the reasons cited above.

No, John 20:31 says you must believe to have life. If regeneration means life (and it does), then faith precedes regeneration. The verses Willis showed, Isa 55:3 and Jhn 5:25 both say a man must first hear God before he can be made alive.

This is the difference... Non-Cals and Arminians have many scriptures that absolutely say faith precedes being made alive or regeneration, while Calvinists have absolutely ZERO scripture to support regeneration before faith. The non-Cal view is scriptural, the Calvinist view is not.

.....and I'm about to get off of this endless merry-go-round.

The only reason it is a merry-go-round is because Calvinists refuse to admit they have no scripture to support their view, and they refuse to admit that non-Cals DO have scripture to support their view.

I have shown you much scripture that directly says you must believe to have life. I can show more. You cannot show ANY to support your view, NONE.

No it doesn't, the scriptures clearly teach man is passive in regeneration and the scriptures don't contradict each other. Our faith has nothing to do with obtaining the free gift of eternal life, it has everything to do with experiencing the quality of eternal life. Compare:

The thief cometh not, but that he may steal, and kill, and destroy: I came that they may have life, and may have it abundantly. Jn 10:10

This verse does not say man plays no part in salvation. Where does it say that?

Fight the good fight of the faith, lay hold on the life eternal, whereunto thou wast called, and didst confess the good confession in the sight of many witnesses. 1 Tim 6:12

This verse argues against your view. If man has nothing to do with salvation, then why does Paul tell us to LAY HOLD of eternal life?

And I've got to go, there's several things that are pressing upon me to get done. Carry on with your Calvinist-slaying.

Thanks for your permission to present what I believe is the truth.

 

[kyredneck]

What you should note is the second phrase, which explains the first.

Jhn 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Jesus is speaking of the word of God. We can HEAR the Spirit. Faith comes by hearing the word of God, but the hearing is man's part. The giving of scripture is God's part. Without God's word no man could have faith, nevertheless, the man has to place his own faith in God's word, God does not believe for you.

It is like going to school, a good teacher can teach you what you do not know, but you must listen to learn. If you did learn you must give your teacher credit for imparting knowledge to you, but nevertheless you must pay attention and listen to receive this knowledge from your teacher.

I must defer to Gill:

"...The wind bloweth where it listeth,.... For ought any mortal can say, or do to the contrary: and so the Spirit of God is a free agent in regeneration; he works how, and where, and when he pleases; he acts freely in the first operation of his grace on the heart, and in all after influences of it; as well as in the donation of his gifts to men, for different purposes; see 1 Corinthians 12:11; and this grace of the Spirit in regeneration, like the wind, is powerful and irresistible; it carries all before it; there is no withstanding it; it throws down Satan's strong holds, demolishes the fortifications of sin; the whole posse of hell, and the corruptions of a man's heart, are not a match for it; when the Spirit works, who can let?

and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, nor whither it goeth; as the wind, though its sound is heard, and its force felt, it cannot be seen; nor is it known certainly, from whence it comes, and where are the treasures of it; from whence it begins, and where it ends; so is the grace of the Spirit of God in regeneration to a natural man; it is imperceptible, indiscernible, and unaccountable by him, 1 Corinthians 2:14..."

....But you teach a man is made alive while he is still in sin...

Well, yeah,....it's kinda sorta what the scriptures teach:

6 For while we were yet weak, in due season Christ died for the ungodly.
8 But God commendeth his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life; Ro 5
1 And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, Eph 2

and then after being regenerated he places his faith in Christ and is justified. In your view, until a man places faith in Christ he is spiritually alive and spritually dead at the same moment! Absurd!

Have you ever pondered what Israel was in reality guilty of PRIOR to Balaam's forced prophecy here?:

He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob; Neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: Jehovah his God is with him, And the shout of a king is among them. Nu 23:21

Or the import of these words?:

Blessed is the man unto whom Jehovah imputeth not iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no guile. Ps 32:2

Paul was separated from his mother's womb to be the apostle to the nations, yet in the meantime he persecuted the Church of Christ, and it wasn't until WHEN IT WAS GOD'S GOOD PLEASURE to reveal His son in Paul that he was brought into the fold.

You do not have even one single verse in all of scripture that says a man must be regenerated to have the ability to believe. That is a totally false and man-made doctrine without any scriptural support. You cannot show it.

Sigh. This gets so wearisome with you. You've been shown many times before. I'll just toss these out for good measure:

“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep.” Jn 10

“He that is of God heareth the words of God: for this cause ye hear them not, because ye are not of God.” Jn 8

What does it take for one to be a sheep or to be of God Winman? (hint, Jn 1:13; 3:7,8)

And all scriptures such as Jhn 20:31 says you must believe to have life.

You are forcing eternity into that passage. Those that believe already have eternal life:

He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life;......Jn 3:36

.....He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life,...Jn5:24

... He that believeth hath eternal life. Jn 6:47

One does not acquire eternal life because one wills to believe; one believes because they've been given eternal life.

It's past my bedtime, you're wearisome, this is the same ol' same ol' with you, I've better things to do like go to sleep, good night.

 

[kyredneck]

Very Interesting read for the link you gave Ky Redneck, I always considered these things but not with the best of clarity. I seen in scriptures what the Father did then what the Holy Spirit is doing now. For example In Matthew chapter 16
:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye I am?
:16 And Simon Peter answered amd said, Thou are the Christ, the Son of the living God.
:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed are thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, buy my Father which is in heaven.

I once heard verse 17 quoted one time with Holy Spirit instead of Father and it brought much of my attention to it.

Also a Good one to consider is John 5:37-38 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. And you have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

Another one: John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
Then also in 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: Showing the Spirit is what quickened his dead body form the grave and giving us the link in Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Also I believe this show us how we are first quickened inwardly before outwardly in the bodily resurrection like in Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, ( by grace ye are saved)

Excellent post brother.

"Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

Thanks for pointing that one out. This is true for all His children who come to obedience, flesh & blood does not reveal it to them, the Spirit does.

 

[Winman]

I must defer to Gill:

"...The wind bloweth where it listeth,.... For ought any mortal can say, or do to the contrary: and so the Spirit of God is a free agent in regeneration; he works how, and where, and when he pleases; he acts freely in the first operation of his grace on the heart, and in all after influences of it; as well as in the donation of his gifts to men, for different purposes; see 1 Corinthians 12:11; and this grace of the Spirit in regeneration, like the wind, is powerful and irresistible; it carries all before it; there is no withstanding it; it throws down Satan's strong holds, demolishes the fortifications of sin; the whole posse of hell, and the corruptions of a man's heart, are not a match for it; when the Spirit works, who can let?

and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, nor whither it goeth; as the wind, though its sound is heard, and its force felt, it cannot be seen; nor is it known certainly, from whence it comes, and where are the treasures of it; from whence it begins, and where it ends; so is the grace of the Spirit of God in regeneration to a natural man; it is imperceptible, indiscernible, and unaccountable by him, 1 Corinthians 2:14..."



Well, yeah,....it's kinda sorta what the scriptures teach:

6 For while we were yet weak, in due season Christ died for the ungodly.
8 But God commendeth his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life; Ro 5
1 And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, Eph 2



Have you ever pondered what Israel was in reality guilty of PRIOR to Balaam's forced prophecy here?:

He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob; Neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: Jehovah his God is with him, And the shout of a king is among them. Nu 23:21

Or the import of these words?:

Blessed is the man unto whom Jehovah imputeth not iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no guile. Ps 32:2

Paul was separated from his mother's womb to be the apostle to the nations, yet in the meantime he persecuted the Church of Christ, and it wasn't until WHEN IT WAS GOD'S GOOD PLEASURE to reveal His son in Paul that he was brought into the fold.



Sigh. This gets so wearisome with you. You've been shown many times before. I'll just toss these out for good measure:

“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep.” Jn 10

“He that is of God heareth the words of God: for this cause ye hear them not, because ye are not of God.” Jn 8

What does it take for one to be a sheep or to be of God Winman? (hint, Jn 1:13; 3:7,8)



You are forcing eternity into that passage. Those that believe already have eternal life:

He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life;......Jn 3:36

.....He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life,...Jn5:24

... He that believeth hath eternal life. Jn 6:47

One does not acquire eternal life because one wills to believe; one believes because they've been given eternal life.

It's past my bedtime, you're wearisome, this is the same ol' same ol' with you, I've better things to do like go to sleep, good night.

No, it is you that forces your presupposition into scripture. Have you ever noticed that it always mentions #1 hearing, #2 believeing, and #3 eternal life in that order?

NEVER do the scriptures say "He that hath eternal life believeth". If the scriptures said that even once (but they do not) I would agree with your view.

And you conveniently left out the next two verses in John 10;

Jhn 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Jesus said his sheep #1 hear his voice, #2 follow him, and lastly, #3 he gives them eternal life. This order is always shown in scripture. Notice Jesus does not know his sheep until AFTER they first hear him.

Calvinism always reverses what scriptures say. The scriptures say he who hears (meaning a person who willingly and actively listens) and believes has eternal life. ALWAYS.

Show me where the scriptures say a person with eternal life believes, you can't do it.

Let's see it.