Capital Punishment: Part II

[Salty]

Actually, the poll is misleading. I did vote NO -

The first choice was - YES . They are shedding innocent blood and Scripturally deserve to be killed.

The Second choice was No. Capital punishment is only for those who kill people who have been born.(

( sure you put a choice of "other")

THE TITLE OF THE POLL IS
Should mothers who abort babies get the death penalty?

And I would NOT advocate Capital punishment for the mother.

The DR- YES! The Father - accessory

This poll is so biased and confusing - I may just start a new poll.

 

[blackbird]

So the mothers and those who helped her murder the baby should get the death penalty?



Do you believe that mothers and those who help them murder their unborn children should get the death penalty?



Thus the hypocrisy.

I don't see any hypocrisy in Scarlett's post at all

 

[Zaac]

The OP:

It is flawed right from the beginning.

I'm sorry for not being able to put together a poll question.

1. Define pro-life. If you mean "against abortion," then yes most believers would be against abortion.

Foolishness. You're simply trying to muddy the waters with arguments over words. And Scripture says to not do this. You know what pro-life is just like the majority of the folks in the US and in the church know what it means.

2. Capital punishment, whether you are for it or against it, you cannot change. What is the policy in the state/nation in which you live? Is there any possibility of it changing or you effecting a change? If not, then the Scriptures teach in Romans 13:1-8 to obey your government. Obey those that are in positions of authority.

Then the folks on this board and in the church need to hush about abortion then. They need to hush about politics too if something is the policy of that area.

SInce when does the command to obey the government hinge upon whether or not there is any possibility of effecting a change?

You say:

Gen.9:6 is not justification, it is the basis for capital judgment and has been in many former legal systems upon which ours is also built. It has nothing to do with us, as citizens, personally. As individuals we don't put people to death. The government does. However, any person must go through due process of law. They must be found guilty, not by one person, not by your opinion, but by a court of law.

And I also said that if you trust that government got it right about life in its laws about capital punishment, why should anyone believe that they don't have it right about abortion? Life is life. They okay it to be taken in one instance and the church is okay with it. So why not be okay with them okaying to take it in another?

This statement is absurd.
"If the Body"...
What Body?? The so-called universal body of Christ?? Really?? Are you serious?? Am I to conclude that only American citizens able to vote that have trusted Christ make up the "Body of Christ"?? Really??

Why would you conclude such a thing? The Body of Believers is worldwide. And as our unrepentant sin grows because we don't think it's sin, wickedness in the world continues to run rampant.

There are serious racist words I can throw at that, but they are not permitted.
If you are referring to the Body of Christ, so-called, there are believers in India, China, African nations, South American nations, the mid-east, etc. Do they get to vote in your government? In your decisions? Are you going to allow all African believers decide what believers ought to do in your nation. Then how are you carrying this philosophy into action.
Only God could do something like that, and you are not God.

You're talking foolishness. GOD has already done it. Do you not remember the Cross? The first thing out of the mouth of the Ones who have been shown mercy should be mercy. But instead, because the government says no mercy ...take that life, we in the church also must advocate it? The government advocates abortion. Do we advocate that too?

Everything exampled by Christ points to HIS people responding unlike the worldly government. The government says kill and the folks who should understand the mercy of the Cross...the mercy of the Gospel of Jesus Christ...overwhelmingly chime in agreement to kill?

At least with those who admit to wanting to kill the mothers , doctors etc who commit abortion, there is some level of consistency that exists to the lack of mercy and the lack of loving our neighbors as ourselves when they've broken the same law that we have.

Theologically, there is no "Body." There is no such things as one body of believers that can assemble together anywhere at one place. That will happen someday in heaven, but not on earth.
God is calling out a nation for himself, a Bride for himself, a kingdom, a family. But the body refers to the local church. Study carefully 1Corinthians chapter 12.

God has given His word and exampled another wayin His earthly ministry and throughout the NT. Is this not what is being preached and taught by Christians throughout the world? So if you've got the same word, what's the problem with teaching the truth that Christ exampled with His life and that is shown throughout the NT?

Then, who is the "we"? Should not we???

Why are you confused about the we? The we is the folks in the Body of Christ who advocate killing over mercy.

How are "we" going to do anything and how are we going to rally together.

The same way youdid something and got together to decide that you are for capital punishment.

Are you speaking of the "we" of BB, the "we" of American (I am in Canada). What "we"? Who are you addressing? And how is this we going to do anything together?
There is no "we" is there?

There is a we. And it starts at your house.

You have a flawed OP.

Nope. You have a flawed interpretation of the OP.

http://www.baptistboard.com/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=2114873[/QUOTE]

 

[Zaac]

I don't see any hypocrisy in Scarlett's post at all

I do. If you're for the death penalty because the government allows it, then say nothing about abortion or divorce or anything else the government allows.

It continues to be hypocritical for the people in the church to be advocating killing one person because the government okays it, but to then express such discontent at the government okaying the killing of babies because they are innocent. It's a worldly view not at all based in Scripture.

If you say that abortion is the taking of a human life, you're acknowledging that that unborn baby is part of ALL human life. Scripture says that ALL have sinned and fallen short. So there are no innocent babies. They are just as worthy of death as is the next whether or not sensitive people want to accept it as so. I'm of course speaking from a spiritual perspective and not a worldly one.

From a spiritual perspective But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Rom. 5:8

How easy is it to demand death for those who have taken another life? The measure of Christ in those who love Him is markedly shown by whether or not they advocate FIRST for others what they have been given.

We've been shown the ULTIMATE mercy. Wouldn't we just look strange...somewhat peculiar...if contrary to this world system, we begged for mercy? Wouldn't we just look crazy if instead of assisting a culture of death, we started to speak life?

Instead we advocate killing just as the world system does. So much so, that quite a few of us, according to this thread, advocate killing mothers and dcotors and those associated with abortion.

Remember the Cross!!!

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Liberals are only concerned with argument, or what superficially appears to be argument, as a rhetorical bludgeon designed to beat you into submission. They aren’t trying to change your mind. They don’t expect you to agree with them. They don’t even care whether or not you grow to love Big Brother.

They just want you to shut up and let them run rampant. If you understand that, you'll be fine.


http://townhall.com/columnists/kurt...th-liberals--it-only-encourages-them-n1845401

 

[Zaac]

Liberals are only concerned with argument, or what superficially appears to be argument, as a rhetorical bludgeon designed to beat you into submission. They aren’t trying to change your mind. They don’t expect you to agree with them. They don’t even care whether or not you grow to love Big Brother.

They just want you to shut up and let them run rampant. If you understand that, you'll be fine.


http://townhall.com/columnists/kurt...th-liberals--it-only-encourages-them-n1845401

The Pharisees were only concerned with folks seeing their religiosity while they ignored the message of Christ. His word and anti-worldly approach is STILL highlighting the error of their ways.

 

[DHK]

Instead we advocate killing just as the world system does. So much so, that quite a few of us, according to this thread, advocate killing mothers and dcotors and those associated with abortion.

Remember the Cross!!!

Suppose there are approximately one billion Christians in the world.
Who gives you the right to speak for that undefinable innumerable "we"?
And how do you know what the "we" advocate? Did you take time to interview them all?
This entire thread is so philosophical and theoretical that it has no foundation in fact.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

The Pharisees were only concerned with folks seeing their religiosity while they ignored the message of Christ. His word and anti-worldly approach is STILL highlighting the error of their ways.

The Pharisees did like to compare themselves in a favorable manner to everyone else, didn't they ?

 

[Zaac]

Suppose there are approximately one billion Christians in the world.
Who gives you the right to speak for that undefinable innumerable "we"?

The same one who gives you the right to not speak for them.

And how do you know what the "we" advocate? Did you take time to interview them all?

Did you? It's not necessary to interview every Christian in the world to know that a large group advocates killing any more than I would have to interview every Christian to know that a large group advocate abortion.

This entire thread is so philosophical and theoretical that it has no foundation in fact.

So that's how we explain away our disobedience now. It's just philosophical. Classic.

 

[Zaac]

The Pharisees did like to compare themselves in a favorable manner to everyone else, didn't they ?

Examine yourself and let me know.

 

[DHK]

The same one who gives you the right to not speak for them.

I don't speak for anyone. I proclaim the truth of the Word of God. I am a witness for Christ. Someday I will give account before God, not for others but for myself. You will do the same thing.

Did you? It's not necessary to interview every Christian in the world to know that a large group advocates killing any more than I would have to interview every Christian to know that a large group advocate abortion.

I don't have to. It is not my business what they believe. I am one person and I can't change the world. I am not a politician. Someday the Antichrist will come on the scene and the False Prophet also. The False Prophet will establish a one world church. But that is not my business.
Someday Christ will establish his Millennial Kingdom. I can't do that either.
He has put me here to be a witness for Him, and I will work for Him in the sphere of responsibility that God has put me in.

So that's how we explain away our disobedience now. It's just philosophical. Classic.

I am not the one disobeying God. If you are, you need to repent and start obeying him. The Great Commission is a good place to start.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

You're correct, the cited articles in the quoted wikipedia article is the evidence

Well, like the old saying goes, "If at first, you eisegete, try, try again."

Christians profess to be pro-life but also say they are okay with capital punishment.

Yes, for three reasons.

The first, and most obvious, is that God, who also happens to be pro-life, ordained the death penalty as His chosen method for the state to deal with murderers.

The second is that, one of the reasons the punishment is so strict, is that the life of the victim was precious, too.

The third is that we're not complete morons who can't recognize the difference between an innocent little baby and a convicted murderer.

It's even been said that Genesis 9:6 is the justification for capital punishment.
“Whoever sheds human blood,
by humans shall their blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made mankind.

That and Romans 13.

So if the Body is to be consistent, should we not advocate capital punishment for any living mother who has chosen to abort a child?

I would not because I see the mother as a victim of emotional manipulation.

 

[Zaac]

I don't speak for anyone. I proclaim the truth of the Word of God. I am a witness for Christ. Someday I will give account before God, not for others but for myself. You will do the same thing.

And I haven't said otherwise. And as such, I'm responsible for using the word of God to teach and correct.

I don't have to. It is not my business what they believe.

Then it shouldn't be your business or the church's either that some are okay with murdering babies in the womb.

I am one person and I can't change the world.

Then don't preach the Gospel. Everything in the Gospel of Jesus Christ makes it clear that one person doing right certainly can change the world. Moses did. David did. Nehemiah did. Jesus certainly did. Peter did. Paul did.

When people get saved, they get changed. Change the people and you'll change the world. Call people to obedience of the word of God and exampling a changed life and the world WILL be changed.

I am not a politician. Someday the Antichrist will come on the scene and the False Prophet also. The False Prophet will establish a one world church. But that is not my business.

Someday Christ will establish his Millennial Kingdom. I can't do that either.
He has put me here to be a witness for Him, and I will work for Him in the sphere of responsibility that God has put me in.

Nobody asked you to do any of that.

I am not the one disobeying God. If you are, you need to repent and start obeying him. The Great Commission is a good place to start.

If you're advocating death over mercy and life, you are indeed disobeying God.

Do you advocate killing mothers who murder their babies?

 

[Zaac]

Well, like the old saying goes, "If at first, you eisegete, try, try again."



Yes, for three reasons.

The first, and most obvious, is that God, who also happens to be pro-life, ordained the death penalty as His chosen method for the state to deal with murderers.

There was no governing authority per se when God said what HE did in Gen 9. He was giving that directly to the Jews. And Christ showed the world another way. 15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. 16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. 1 Tim. 1:15-16

The second is that, one of the reasons the punishment is so strict, is that the life of the victim was precious, too.

17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone.

Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d] says the Lord. 20 On the contrary:

“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”[e]
21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. Rom. 12:17;19-21

The third is that we're not complete morons who can't recognize the difference between an innocent little baby and a convicted murderer.

I'll say again, if you believe abortion to be the killing of life, then that life is part of the all that have sinned. So though your thought is emotionally based and probably appealing to those who want to tug at the heartstrings about the innocence of babies, either babies are part of the ALL who have sinned and fallen short or the unborn baby isn't part of the ALL and isn't considered a life yet.

That and Romans 13.



I would not because I see the mother as a victim of emotional manipulation.

Doesn't matter. She still makes the choice. If somebody emotionally manipulates you to steal something, you still stole.

 

[DHK]

And I haven't said otherwise. And as such, I'm responsible for using the word of God to teach and correct.

Look through your posts. I already have. Reread them.
How many Scriptures have you quoted?
How many times, in contrast, have you used this undefinable, "we" or "the Body," or some other undefinable term. You ignore the Scripture and preach philosophy and your own opinion. You try to make it all inclusive. You have no idea what "the Body" believes. Why even pretend? That is the height of arrogance.

Then it shouldn't be your business or the church's either that some are okay with murdering babies in the womb.

If my influence is in my local church, which for the most part is true, then I don't know of anyone there who is okay with murdering babies in the womb. You are barking up the wrong tree.
I am not a Carl MacIntyre, who every time he got on the radio, (in the 60's and 70's) preached against communism. If that is your hobby horse (abortion) and calling from God then go for it.

Then don't preach the Gospel. Everything in the Gospel of Jesus Christ makes it clear that one person doing right certainly can change the world. Moses did. David did. Nehemiah did. Jesus certainly did. Peter did. Paul did.

As I said, I obey God (by preaching the gospel and obeying the Great Commission) in the sphere of influence where He has put me. That may not change a world of 7 billion people. But it will change some. I do what God commands me. God did not set me here to change the world, but rather to carry out his mission.
Ranting and raving about your hobby horse isn't one of them.

When people get saved, they get changed. Change the people and you'll change the world. Call people to obedience of the word of God and exampling a changed life and the world WILL be changed.

I know that by experience far more than you will probably ever know. I am a missionary and have been to a number of nations, countries that most people would not dare to go. I have seen lives completely changed by the gospel and then snuffed out by persecution.

If you're advocating death over mercy and life, you are indeed disobeying God.

Do you advocate killing mothers who murder their babies?

Get off your soapbox and start obeying the Great Commission.
I don't advocate murder of any kind.

 

[DHK]

Posted by Zaac
There was no governing authority per se when God said what HE did in Gen 9. He was giving that directly to the Jews. And Christ showed the world another way. 15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. 16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. 1 Tim. 1:15-16

What a lark!
God had instituted government by this time Zaac.

What had not come into being was the Jewish nation. Abraham hadn't even been born yet. This is Genesis chapter 9. There is no mention of Abraham until the end of chapter 11 and the beginning of chapter 12. The actual nation of Israel did not begin until Moses formed them into a nation at Mount Sinai after the Exodus. That is when the Law came.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

There was no governing authority per se when God said what HE did in Gen 9.

Was there a governing authority per se when God said what HE did in Romans 13?

He was giving that directly to the Jews. And Christ showed the world another way. 15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. 16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. 1 Tim. 1:15-16

Which has what, exactly, to do with capital punishment?

17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone.

Which has what, exactly, to do with capital punishment.

Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d] says the Lord. 20 On the contrary:

“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”[e]
21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good

. Rom. 12:17;19-21

We're not talking about revenge. We're talking about punishment for crime.

I'll say again, if you believe abortion to be the killing of life, then that life is part of the all that have sinned. So though your thought is emotionally based and probably appealing to those who want to tug at the heartstrings about the innocence of babies, either babies are part of the ALL who have sinned and fallen short or the unborn baby isn't part of the ALL and isn't considered a life yet.

Put the crack pipe down for a minute.

Yes, babies have sinned. No one has argued otherwise. But we're not talking about killing people for sin. We're talking about a God-ordained practice of punishing criminals.

Doesn't matter. She still makes the choice. If somebody emotionally manipulates you to steal something, you still stole.

Fine. Then you kill her. You asked me what I would do and what I would do would be to treat her as a victim.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Examine yourself and let me know.

Ok.

I have examined my stance, and find that to compare it to that of a Pharisee is asinine. You are the one thanking God you aren't like us.


This thread was stared to berate people. Nothing more.

 

[Zaac]

Look through your posts. I already have. Reread them.
How many Scriptures have you quoted?
How many times, in contrast, have you used this undefinable, "we" or "the Body," or some other undefinable term. You ignore the Scripture and preach philosophy and your own opinion. You try to make it all inclusive. You have no idea what "the Body" believes. Why even pretend? That is the height of arrogance.

The height of arrogance is that you think we or the Body has to mean ALL.

If my influence is in my local church, which for the most part is true, then I don't know of anyone there who is okay with murdering babies in the womb. You are barking up the wrong tree.

Nope. Your tree is listening for the wrong bark.

I am not a Carl MacIntyre, who every time he got on the radio, (in the 60's and 70's) preached against communism. If that is your hobby horse (abortion) and calling from God then go for it.

As I said, I obey God (by preaching the gospel and obeying the Great Commission) in the sphere of influence where He has put me. That may not change a world of 7 billion people. But it will change some. I do what God commands me. God did not set me here to change the world, but rather to carry out his mission.
Ranting and raving about your hobby horse isn't one of them.

What are you talking about? If you're not advocating death for babies and the mothers who kill them or capital punishment for folks who have broken the same law that you have, then I'm not talking about you. Press on and continue the Good work of the Lord in preaching the Gospel and making dsisciples.

I know that by experience far more than you will probably ever know.

Now who is being arrogant.

I am a missionary and have been to a number of nations, countries that most people would not dare to go. I have seen lives completely changed by the gospel and then snuffed out by persecution.

Thank you for your service. But you have no idea what mission work I have done or to what countries I've been to to preach the Gospel and minister only to see the lives taken at the hands of family. So you can slow that on down.

Get off your soapbox and start obeying the Great Commission.

I can stand on my soapbox and call the church to obedience and carry out the Commission of Christ in the same day. :smilewinkgrin:

I don't advocate murder of any kind.

Then as I said, if you're not advocating the killing of babies or the mothers who kill babies or capital punishment for folks who break the same law as you, then I'm not talking to you.:thumbsup:

 

[Zaac]

What a lark!
God had instituted government by this time Zaac.

What had not come into being was the Jewish nation. Abraham hadn't even been born yet. This is Genesis chapter 9. There is no mention of Abraham until the end of chapter 11 and the beginning of chapter 12. The actual nation of Israel did not begin until Moses formed them into a nation at Mount Sinai after the Exodus. That is when the Law came.

Correct.:thumbsup: