Cardinal Manning said...

[GraceSaves]

Just letting you guys know..

I'm reading the whole article by Newman (although I'm only 1/4 through with it; it is quite lengthy), and I don't know if I would be using it as a reference in DEFENSE of the Protestant side.

I suggest you read the whole thing before you use it, Rakka, and others.

God bless,

Grant

 

[Singer]

Catholics were the Christians at that time

Not so ! Who were the Protesters then...?
Were they heathens who railed against the Catholic Christians ?
No...they were other christians and there must have been many of them
to organize a movement. I say they were some of those "if they are not against
us; they are for us" type Christians that Jesus was confronted with on earth.
Actually they may have been the original christians and the Catholics were those
who were outside of the apostle's circle. There were christians before there were
Catholics as Catholics never appeared on the scene until after 110AD or possibly up
to 400AD. So the Reformers may possibly have been the original Christians who saw
Catholicism misrepresenting the truth and decided to rebel in the name of the Lord.

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Singer,

You wrote, "Actually they may have been the original christians and the Catholics were those who were outside of the apostle's circle. There were christians before there were
Catholics as Catholics never appeared on the scene until after 110 A.D. or possibly up
to 400AD."

OoooOooo... the invisible, unrecorded, yet true believers theory. *grin*

That's some sketchy history, brother!

From the apostles' circle (i.e., St. John's disciple who was martyred for the faith in Rome):

"Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he ordains [i.e., a presbyter]. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church" (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).

Hint: Stop making up your history as you go along and stick to the record.

 

[thessalonian]

"There were christians before there were
Catholics as Catholics never appeared on the scene until after 110AD or possibly up
to 400AD. So the Reformers may possibly have been the original Christians who saw
Catholicism misrepresenting the truth and decided to rebel in the name of the Lord."

 

[Singer]

Catholic History only proves there is Catholic History.
Not to be mistaken for the Gospel or even the truth.

 

[Singer]

There were Christians before there were Catholics.
There was saving faith before there was Catholic Faith.

 

[MikeS]

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
Hi Singer,

You wrote, "Actually they may have been the original christians and the Catholics were those who were outside of the apostle's circle. There were christians before there were
Catholics as Catholics never appeared on the scene until after 110 A.D. or possibly up
to 400AD."

OoooOooo... the invisible, unrecorded, yet true believers theory. *grin*

Well then, they would have maintained a secret line of apostolic succession, being the true church! Where can we see one of these true bishops today?

Hint: Stop making up your history as you go along and stick to the record.

Just ran across this in my Chesterton reading today: "After all, the essential aim of true Christianity is that priests should be blamed; and who are we that we should set narrow dogmatic limits to the various ways in which various temperaments may desire to blame them?"

(While this sentence talks about priests, the paragraph is about attacks on the Catholic Church in general)

--The Catholic Church and Conversion, 1927

 

[Singer]

Well then, they would have maintained a secret line of apostolic succession,
being the true church!

Mike, the true church is not a visible organized denomination.
There was no secret line of succession. The apostles died and we as believers
carry on the work. We are the ones assigned to "Go and Tell" the good news:
That Jesus is the son of God...born of a virgin, proclaimed to be the savior of the
world, was put to death like scripture promised, rose again and lives forevermore.
He is the firstfruits of those of us who believe this.

We are not asked to accept any other "Truth".

Any believer is a part of this true church. The true church does not have a name.
If it did and was the key to salvation, don't you suppose Jesus would have revealed
it word for word. He didn't create some gigantic puzzle that takes decades of study,
translation, reading, practice and secular reference guides to understand.

He simply said "Whosoever believes in Me shall never die"

 

[MikeS]

Originally posted by Singer:
Well then, they would have maintained a secret line of apostolic succession,
being the true church!

Mike, the true church is not a visible organized denomination.
There was no secret line of succession. The apostles died and we as believers
carry on the work.

Well, the assembly of the people of God certainly wasn't invisible in the Old Testament! And yet, with the coming of the visible, Incarnate God, the assembly of the people of God suddenly turned invisible?!

 

[SolaScriptura in 2003]

When the Catholics were trying to kill them they did.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Kathryn:
DHK:
In the Christian journal 'Ministry' November 1987, pages 4-8, and entitled 'The Old Testament Text in Antiquity.' Siegfried H. Horn, Professor Emeritus of Archaeology at Andrews University, Berrien Springs, Michigan writes about the Council of Jamnia and dates it to 100 AD.

The Hebrew canon was finished around 450 B.C. The Jews never accepted any book after that date as Scripture. God did not speak to any prophet until John the Baptist came on the scene for over 400 years. The canon of Scripture was completed 450 years before the coming of Christ. The deutero-canonical books were written well after that date, and for that reason alone were rejected. Other reasons: They didn't read like Scripture--more like fairy tales (Bel and the dragon, for example). The contradicted orthodox doctrine. They did not speak with the authority of God, and were not inspired according to the Jews.

"There was really no authoritative council at Jamnia. There was no discussion about adding any new books to the canon. What was held at Jamnia were discussions about the right of certain books to remain in the canon. The discussions confirmed that which had long since been believed – each of the twenty-four books of the Hebrew canon was part of Holy Scripture.

The statement from the Apocryphal book of First Esdras, written in A.D. 100, shows that the twenty-four books of the Hebrew canon had been considered authoritative for a long time.

Therefore, nothing new was accomplished at Jamnia."

http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/nbi/386.html

DHK

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by SolaScriptura in 2003:
When the Catholics were trying to kill them they did.

Funny. You'd think mass persecution would make one even MORE visible, since they are out in the open. And yet you claim that makes them INVISIBLE. Shooting your own foot. But that's what happens when you make sweeping, generalized statements based on myth rather than fact.

God bless,

Grant

 

[GraceSaves]

Is it just me, or did DHK just quote a source that used an APOCRYPHAL BOOK to prove what books are non-apocryphal?

God bless,

Grant

 

[Singer]

Well, the assembly of the people of God certainly wasn't invisible in the
Old Testament! And yet, with the coming of the visible, Incarnate God, the
assembly of the people of God suddenly turned invisible?!

That's the point !

No invisibility......there were visible saved people before the onset of Catholicism.

The "assembly" I'm referring to that constitutes the family of God does not
have a name. The "people of God'' you refer to from the OT were not Catholic.
The believers who trusted in Jesus when he walked the earth were not
Catholic. Those who were saved by the thousands when Jesus spoke were
not Catholic. The apostles were never Catholic. Mary was never Catholic.
Jesus never mentioned a Catholic Church as the way to salvation.

He simply said "Whosoever believes in me shall never die".

That's still the rule for today and tomorrow and it was the rule He laid down.

Catholicism merely evolved out of the pride of mankind to create a monopoly
on salvation. A title will do us no good in heaven. "Filty rags" won't open the
pearly gates. Faith will.

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by MikeS:

Originally posted by Lorelei:
[qb] Inconsistent according to whom? Certainly not the Catholic Church. So who gets to decide what is inconsistent?

Exactly, who gets to decide? Do we believe a man because he "says so", because they "say" history proves them infallible when in the first century there as no pope?

No, that is why God gave us His word, so that we would have something to hold mere man accountable to. No man is perfect, even supposedly infallible men claim that they are not and they PROVE they are not in the most vile of ways.

I will let God's word decide, not man, not any man. Whatever men teach I will check the scriptures daily to make sure what they are teaching is true.

~Lorelei

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by Kathryn:
DHK: The KKK was against blacks, Catholics, and Jews.

And so was Hitler who was Catholic until his death. (at least to the blacks and jews) Do you know the history of the Roman Catholic Church and hitler?

So since we admit the KKK is wrong and should be tried for their murders and not treated as legitimate apostles of Christ will you now admit the same about the RCC?

~Lorelei

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by Lorelei:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Kathryn:
DHK: The KKK was against blacks, Catholics, and Jews.

And so was Hitler who was Catholic until his death. Do you know the history of the Roman Catholic Church and hitler?

So since we admit the KKK is wrong and should be tried for their murders and not treated as legitimate apostles of Christ will you now admit the same about the RCC?

~Lorelei </font>[/QUOTE]No, the question is, do YOU know the history of the Catholic Church and the Pope? And I don't mean what you read in such discredited hogwash books as "Hilter's Pope."

And with that, I'm taking another board break. My "incredulous statements of fiction" meter just set a new record.

Grant

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Lorelei,

You've just made a pretty big blunder. Well, I would say it's huge. You just discredited yourself, in my eyes. Why?

Well, you wrote, "And so was Hitler who was Catholic until his death."

Where did you learn this from? Anti-Catholic-Even-At-The-Expense-Of-Sanity.com?

Though Adolph Hitler was baptized Catholic as an infant, he did not practice the Faith later in life. In fact, he completely rejected Christianity as an adult, since he thought it was a "weak" religion because of its emphasis on peace and forgiveness. Instead, Hitler favored a militaristic and racist mishmash of neo-paganism and occultism, which he considered more suitable for the so-called "Aryan supermen" whom he thought would take over the world.

Here are a few facts for you..

On Palm Sunday 1937, Pope Pius XI issued the most dramatic papal denunciation of Hitler's Germany through an encyclical that was slipped into Germany by stealth and was read from every Catholic pulpit in the land. It's entitled Mit Brennender Sorge (With Burning Sorrow), the only encyclical ever written specifically in German. And guess who was the ghostwriter for this encyclical? Cardinal Eugene Pacelli, the future Pope Pius XII, who succeeded Pius XI.

Here's what a Swiss paper quoting Hitler making an open declaration of war on the Church: "The Third Reich does not desire a modus vivendi with the Catholic Church, but rather its destruction with lies and dishonor, in order to make room for a German Church in which the German race will be glorified."

At Auschwitz, 3,000,000 Polish Catholics were systematically murdered, including thousands of priests, 20 percent of Poland's entire clerical class (or "priest swine", as the Nazis called them).

Rabbi David G. Dalin, in his authoritative article "Pope Pius XII and the Jews" in The Weekly Standard, 26 February, 2001 (pp. 31-39), writes:

But Jews, whatever their feelings about the Cahtolic Church, have a duty to reject any attempt to usurp the Holocaust and use it for partisan purposes in such a debate - particularly when the attempt disparages the testimony of Holocaust survivors and spreads to inappropriate figures the condemnation that belongs to Hitler and the Naxis ... The Talmud teaches that "whosoever preserves one life, it is accounted to him by Scripture as if he had preserved the whole world." More than any other twentieth-century leader, Pius fulfilled this Talmudic dictum, when the fate of European Jewry was at stake. No other pope had been so widely praised by Jews - and they were not mistaken. Their gratitude, as well as that of the tnire generation of Holocaust survivors, testifies that Pius XII was genuinely and profoundly a righteous gentile.

Do you know the history of the Roman Catholic Church and hitler?

Yes. Do you? The answer is obvious, to me at least.

Here's some source material for you, since you evidently are in dire need of it:

Rychlak, Ronald J., Hitler, the War, the the Pope

May God have mercy on your soul, which has borne false witness in a cruel, cruel way.

 

[Kathryn]

Some Catholic Martyrs of the Holocaust:

 Blessed Teresa Bracco (1924-1944) -- Italian Citizen (Santa Giulia).
 Blessed Titus Brandsma (1881-1942) -- Carmelite priest (Dachau).
 Blessed Marcel Callo (1921-1945) -- Jocist layman (Mathausen).
 Blessed Jozef Cebula(1902-1941) -- Oblate priest (Mathausen)
 Blessed Stefan Wicenty Frelichowski (1913-1945) -- Polish pastor (Dachau)
 Blessed Jakob Gapp (1897-1943) -- Marianist priest (Ploetzensee).
 Blessed Nikolaus Gross (1898-1945) -- Lay editor (Ploetzensee).
 Blessed Jozef Jankowski (1910-1941) -- Pallotine priest (Auschwitz)
 Blessed Hilary Januszewski (1907-1945) -- Carmelite priest (Dachau)
 Blessed Helene Kafka (1894-1943) -- Franciscan nun (Vienna).
 Saint Maximilian Kolbe (1894-1941) -- Franciscan priest (Auschwitz).
 Blessed Michal Kozal (1893-1943) -- Polish bishop (Dachau).
 Blessed Karl Leisner (1915-1945) -- German priest (Dachau).
 Blessed Bernhard Lichtenberg (1875-1943) -- German monsignor (Dachau).
 Blessed Alphonsus Mary Mazurek (1891-1944) -- Polish Carmelite (Nawojowa Gora)
 Blessed Otto Neururer (1882-1940) -- Austrian priest (Buchenwald).
 Blessed Anastazy Jakub Pankiewicz (1882-1942) -- Franciscan priest (Dachau)
 Blessed Julia Rodzinska (1899-1944) -- Dominican nun (Stutthof)
 Blessed Jozef Stanek (1916-1944) -- Pallotine priest (Warsaw)
 Blessed Boleslaw Strzelecki (1896-1941) -- priest of Radom (Auschwitz)
 Saint Edith Stein (1891-1942) -- Carmelite nun (Auschwitz). On the same day of her death, August 9, 1942, there also perished at Auschwitz Rosa Stein (1883-1942), her sister, and six members of the Loeb Family all Trappists (three nuns, two priests, and one brother).
 108 Polish Martyrs of World War II (1939-1945): Among them were Anton Julian Nowowiejski (1858-1941), an aged archbishop who died in the German death camp at Dzialdowo, where he refused to step on a crucifix; Henryk Kaczorowski (1888-1942), seminary rector at Wloclawek; Ewa Noiszewka (1885-1942) and Marta Wolowska (1879-1942), two Sisters of the Immaculate Conception who were executed at Gora Pietrelewicka in Slonim for hiding Jewish childlren; and Maria Anna Biernacka (1888-1943), one of nine lay persons (she was a benefactress of the Redemptorists in Warsaw) who chose to be executed (she was shot on 13 July 1943 near Grodno) to save her unborn grand child. These were beatified along with George Kaszyra (1904-1943) and Anthony Leszczewicz (1890-1943), Marian priests, (they perished among some 1,500 victims burned alive by the Nazis in Roscia, Belarus, on 17-18 February 1943), whose causes had been opened, on 26 January 1992 in Poland. On June 13, 1999,Pope John Paul II beatified them (including two other bishops, Wladyslaw Goral (1898-1945) and Leon Wetmanski (1886-1941) and many priests, like Jozef Pawlowski (1890-1942) in Kielce and Zygmunt Pisarski (1902-1943) in Lublin, who risked his life to help Jews; and religious, among them Capuchins like Anciet Koplinski (1875-1941); Franciscans like Bruno Zembol (1905-1942), and Salesians like Jozef Kowalski (1911-1942), who died at Auschwitz, not to mention nuns like Maria Antonina Kratochwil (1881-1942), a member of the School Sisters of Notre Dame (she helped Jewish girls in prison), and Maria Klemensa Staszewska (1890-1943), executed at Auschwitz because she hid Jewish girls in a convent. While fifteen of those victims were martyred at Auschwitz and forty-three at Dachau, among the others beatified were also five young Catholic men, The Martyrs of Poznan, who were associated with the Salesians were beheaded at Dresden for their part in resistance activities: Czeslaw Jozwiak (1919-1942), Edward Kazmierski (1919-1942), Edward Klinik (1919-1942), Franciszek Kesy (1920-1942), and Jarogniew Wojciechowski (1922-1942). Although at least eighty Polish Jesuits were martyred by the Nazis, none was included among the thirty-three religious beatified that day. However, it is expected that they will be included in a special ceremony at a future date when the preparation of their causes is concluded.
 Emilian Kovtch (1884-1944), a priest from the Ukrainian Eparchy of Stanislaviv (Ivano-Frankivsk) who died in ovens of Majdanek (Poland) concentration camp, as a victim of the Nazis in 1944, is scheduled for beatification in Pope John Paul II's trip to the Ukraine in June 2001.

God Bless

 

[WPutnam]

Thank you Carson and Kathy!

Here is something for others in this thread:

http://www.catholicleague.org/pius/framemain.htm

God bless,

PAX

Rome has spoken, case is closed.

Derived from Augustine's famous Sermon.