Cardinal Manning said...

I guess that you haven't been following the thread.

Lorelie said that to be infallible in any one area, one must be infallible in all areas.

If you consider Scripture to be infallible then it follows that the person who wrote any part of it (John for example) must have been infallible in the writing of it and by Lorelie's logic he must therefore have been infallible in all areas.

So Lorelie's arguement fails because John says of himself that he made mistakes.

 

Good news and bad news using Martin Luther King Jr. here. Speaking about his disappointment regarding Southern white ministers, King said:
"The most pervasive mistake I have made was in believing that because our cause was just, we could be sure that the white ministers of the South, once their Christian consciences were challenged, would rise to our aid…. I ended up, of course, chastened and disillusioned."

That is the bad news. The good news is that he was a friend of Pope Paul VI and even visited with him at the Vatican. I have much respect for Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. and enjoy reading his sermons and letters. I love when he quotes from St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine. He was truly a remarkable man.

God Bless

 

If the Roman Emporer had been baptized into the Christian church, then you might have a point.

~Lorelei

 

If Robb is a Baptist then Charles Taze Russell is a Catholic. If slander is what you want, then slander is what you will get.
Robb belongs to the Christian Identitiy movement, part of the Aryan Nations movement, which the Baptists have nothing to do with. Maybe the Catholics do; I don't know. The Catholic Church is far more ecumenical than us IFBers, so it wouldn't surprise me.
DHK

 

I don't deny that Baptists were once involved in the KKK. What kind of Baptists they were I don't know. As I have said before there are all kind of Baptists. I don't deny that Catholics were persecuted. I have already said that.

But I also have said that we all denounce all the atrocitied and crimes of the KKK. The Baptists are willing to deal with any other Baptist, as with any other person who commits a crime, and hope that he gets his just due. Whereas the Catholics just try to cover up their crimes, and whitewash and revise history. Therein lies the difference.

I have also said that the KKK has changed, not perhaps in being a violent organization, but in being more inclusive. To this day it also includes Catholics. Don't feel so smug.
DHK

 

Dr. William F. Rosenblum, in his sermon at Temple Israel in New York City on October 12, 1958, spoke about Pope Pius XII who made it possible for "thousands of Jewish victims of Nazism and Fascism to be hidden away in monasteries and convents of the various Catholic orders and for Jewish children to be taken into Catholic orphanages." He paid tribute to the Pope as "a great religious leader whose works for brotherliness and peace in a time of crisis in our history should remain as an example to emulate."

The Chief Rabbi of Rome, Elio Toaff, upon learning of Pius XII’s death, said: “More than any other people, the Italian Jews had experienced the great pity and supreme generosity of the Pontiff during the unhappy years of persecution and terror, when it seemed to them that they had no way of escape. His Jewish compatriots will everlastingly remember with gratitude the papal ruling to open the doors of convents and parish houses to them. The Jewish community is in mourning for the death of Pope Pius XII, and with sincere sentiments it raises its prayers to the Lord that He may grant His generous and chosen soul every beatitude.”

As The Jewish Post (Winnipeg) reported in its November 6, 1958 edition: “It is understandable why the death of Pope Pius XII should have called forth expressions of sincere grief from practically all sections of American Jewry. For there probably was not a single ruler of our generation who did more to help the Jews in their hour of greatest tragedy, during the Nazi occupation of Europe, than the late Pope.”

The following petition was presented to Pope Pius XII in the summer of 1945 by twenty thousand Jewish refugees from Central Europe: “Allow us to ask the great honor of being able to thank, personally, His Holiness for the generosity he has shown us when we were being persecuted during the terrible period of Nazi-Fascism."

Representing the Hebrew Commission, Dr. Joseph Nathan addressed the Jewish Community: "We express our heartfelt gratitude to those who protected and saved us during the Nazi-Fascist persecutions. Above all, we acknowledge the Supreme Pontiff and the religious men and women who, executing the directives of the Holy Father, recognized the persecuted as their brothers and, with great abnegation, hasted to help them, disregarding the terrible danger to which they were exposed." (L'Osservatore Romano, September 8, 1945.)

The head of the Italian Jewish Assistance Committee, Dr. Raffael Cantoni, reported: “The Church and the papacy have saved Jews as much and in as far as they could save Christians...Six million of my co-religionists have been murdered by the Nazis, but there could have been many more victims, had it not been for the efficacious intervention of Pius XII.”

With the issuance of Pius XII’s first encyclical, the Jewish Telegraphic Agency in New York (October 27, 1939) reported that the “unqualified condemnation which Pope Pius XII heaped on totalitarian, racist and materialistic theories of government in his encyclical, Summi Pontificatus, caused a profound stir....few observers had expected so outspoken a document.”

London’s Jewish Chronicle wrote editorially on September 11, 1942: “A word of sincere and earnest appreciation is due from the Jews to the Vatican for its intervention in Berlin and Vichy on behalf of their tortured co-religionists in France...It was a step urged, to their honor, by a number of Catholics, but for which we may be sure, the Holy Father himself, with his intense humanity and his clear sighted understanding of the true and deadly implications of the assaults on the Jewish people, needed no prompting.”

On August 2, 1943, the World Jewish Congress sent the following message to Pope Pius: "World Jewish Congress respectfully expresses gratitude to Your Holiness for your gracious concern for innocent peoples afflicted by the calamities of war and appeals to Your Holiness to use your high authority by suggesting Italian authorities may remove as speedily possible to Southern Italy or other safer areas twenty thousand Jewish refugees and Italian nationals now concentrated in internment camps...and so prevent their deportation and similar tragic fate which has befallen Jews in Eastern Europe. Our terror-stricken brethren look to Your Holiness as the only hope for saving them from persecution and death."

Carson, There is little point in trying to correct those that condemn the Catholic Church for not doing enough in WWII. They don't know what they are talking about. Those that were there generally give the Church good marks for all the Jews she saved.

 

Ever hear of Everett Sileven Ramsey?

He is a Baptist pastor in Houston, Missouri and is a Christian Identity leader.

He organized the Christain Identity “Super Conferences” in Huston, Missouri for years.

Do a web search for yourself and check it out.

 

If the Roman Emporer had been baptized into the Christian church, then you might have a point.

~Lorelei </font>[/QUOTE]First of all if your point is still that Hitler was a Catholic until death I haven't seen your proof for that that you said you would provide for us up above. I could quote you if you like.

You said, a few pages back:

"If your pope made a sincere statement that spoke to the vile crimes of the holocaust, you might want to share that with the Jewish nation, they are still disappointed that no pope ever has spoken out against it."

Secondly you made this statement. Now in looking at the net, there is no mention that the Jews want this statement because Hitler may have been baptized Catholic and the Jews viewed him as a Catholic. If that were the case I would grant you the point. But it is not. So tell me again, which verse it is that condems John for not condmening the Romans for slaughtering over 1 milloin Jews.

 

1) There was no connection between the church and the Roman's who slaughtered the Jews. There were connections with Hitler, including a concordat signed between them just prior to the war.

2) No one in the church participated in the murders of the Jews. Many catholics served under Hitler and were in his army.

3) You have no proof that he never spoke out against the slaughter. The fact that it wasn't in scripture does not mean there was no stand made against it. I can't prove that he did, but you can't prove that he did not.

4) There is no proof that his inaction (if there was any) was mistaken as support for the Romans, so there was no need for a public apology and denouncement of what the Romans had done. We have proof that the silence of the Catholic church is, at the very least, mistaken for support of the Nazi regime, and for the sake of "understanding" should be clarified. If the church did indeed think Hitler was wrong and know that so many are questioning their place in this, it would not take but a simple "official" clarification to appease those who feel wronged.

5) There is no proof that John profitted from the slave labor of any Jews that were taken as slaves, so he need not apologize for becoming rich off of the crimes of the Romans. Even if the Catholic church did not profit, they should reveal the proof of that publically, for all the world to see. If they have nothing to hide, why not show the world and reveal the truth.

There is definately no comparison and the fact that one would use the argument "well we don't have to" merely shows that something is wrong. If I am accused of being a part of or doing nothing within my power to prevent or stop such vile and evil crimes I would gladly share evidence that would prove such allegations wrong. The church does not feel compelled to do so, and because of that they will continue to have their integrity in question.

Quit coming up with excuses and answer the allegations "officially". To not do so only harms the church, it helps no one.

~Lorelei

 

Carson, There is little point in trying to correct those that condemn the Catholic Church for not doing enough in WWII.

I would say that it does great good to correct those who are wrong, but that it is useless to try and continue to correct those with closed ears, hearts, and minds. Some individuals have an axe to grind, and with such, "the truth of the matter" is of no real instrinsic value - not, at least, in the face of defacing the Roman Catholic Church.

 

Ever hear of Everett Sileven Ramsey?

He is a Baptist pastor in Houston, Missouri and is a Christian Identity leader.

He organized the Christain Identity “Super Conferences” in Huston, Missouri for years.

Do a web search for yourself and check it out. [/QUOTE]
RACIST, CONSPIRACY-MINDED, KINGDOM-BUILDING BITTER BAPTISTS
By David W. Cloud

Pastor Everett Ramsey, Faith Baptist Church, Houston, Missouri, publishes a series of booklets which promote evil and unscriptural doctrine. He has denied the pretribulational Rapture and teaches a form of dominion theology. He claims that to participate in the banking system or to pay taxes is to be aligned with the Babylonian Whore. He also teaches a form of white Aryan Supremacy, claiming that non-whites do not have a spirit, did not fall, and cannot be redeemed. It is the white race, he says, which was created to rule the other races. Consider some excerpts from his writings:

"Other races are not gifted with the tools of nature to be industrious developers of agriculture, industry, civilizations, governments, etc. as Adam was so gifted. ... Though the non-white races had inhabited the earth for many centuries before Adam, the world stayed in its non-developed stage until Adam came on the scene. ... God in His sovereign grace created another race, `man' (Adamites), white for effect, and created another section in him (Adam) beyond the body and soul of the other animals and races. Adam has a third section, called the human spirit. It was in this spirit of man that God himself would dwell" (Everett Ramsey, Multiculturalism: Racemixing--The Sin for Which God Will Kill, America Today Publishers, 1994, p. 9).

"Adam needed to be redeemed, not the other races" (Ibid., p. 10).

"The bottom line is that if other races do not have a Spirit/temple in which God can dwell, it is only logical that children produced between the races will have no human spirit/temple, or at best a perverted piece of a spirit/temple in which God would refuse to dwell" (Ibid., p. 12).

"What Christians (Christian Israel/Adamites) Must Do: ... Move out of neighborhoods predominant with other races ... Do not allow your children to socialize in your home with other races or in the homes of other races. If you are a male Adamite living with or (married--poor term) to a female of other races or of mixed race, separate! Send the female and the children away" (Ibid., p. 15).

"The black race as a whole is emotionally driven, the Mongolian races are mentally driven. The Adamic race is composed of both these qualities plus the spiritual dimension" (Everett Ramsey, Other Races and Racemixing, America Today Publishers, nd., p. 11).

"North America, Europe and other places of the globe such as South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, Iceland, Greenland, etc., are places manifesting and regathering [the Aryan people, the supposed true Israel]. ... If the other races do not wish to live by these Biblical mandates, or, if they wish to perpetuate their pagan cultures, they should leave the Adamic/Israel countries in which they live and return to their pagan countries" (Ibid., p. 14).

"The term man in the Scriptures referred only to Adam and his descendants. In fact, the Bible is a book or manual for Adam. ... Adam was the first white man ... 200 years ago when this nation was formed, the early founding fathers knew this ... they did not include the Negro, Orientals or any non whites in the definition of `man'" (Everett Ramsey, Racemixing Answered, America Today Publishers, nd., pp. 2,3).

"... missionary work to non white populations did not begin until after the formation of the illuminati, the masons and the influence of Talmudists on Christianity teaching them the equality of all homosapiens" (Ibid., p. 4).

"... the failure of the mixed and foreign races to worship the true God was because they were of mixed genetic race. They could not have the Spirit of God for they had not a spirit like Adam. Without a human spirit, there is no temple for the dwelling of the Spirit of God" (Ibid., p. 12).

"There is no evidence anywhere that the churches were made up of other races or mixed races. They were Israel/Adam. ... Our nation is being destroyed because we have accepted the lie that all homosapiens are equal and the same" (Ibid., pp. 15,16).

"The truth is, that all races did not come from Adam, and while they have a soul, they do not have a human spirit. God has never dwelt among them or in them, they are not under the law, therefore they cannot sin as Adamites do and therefore they need no saviour/redeemer as Adamites do" (Ibid., p. 17).

If you think all of this is lunacy, you are right. It is unscriptural; it is foolish; it is wicked.

Pastor Ramsey is better known by his former name--Sileven. He changed his name to conform to his idea that he descends from the lost tribes of Israel.

In 1984 Everett Sileven, pastor of Faith Baptist Church, Louisville, Nebraska, was jailed and his church padlocked when his Christian school was deemed illegal by the state. Like many men across the land, he had refused to accept a government license. It was reported that there were several thousand government cases against churches, religious organizations and home schools in those days. Eventually the Nebraska law under which Sileven was convicted was changed, but a judge still imposed an eight-month sentence on Sileven.

As the years passed Sileven continued to move in the forefront of resisting government encroachment on churches and Christian schools, and gradually developed the unbiblical views he holds today.

We believe he committed at least two serious errors which have resulted in the doctrinal confusion evident in his life today.

First, Sileven became bitter at the government and changed the focus of his ministry from the preaching of the Word of God and the fulfillment of the Great Commission of worldwide church planting to that of kingdom building and conspiracies. No one enjoys bureaucracy and government thuggery. Even so, the Christian is not told to build the kingdom of God or to go about resisting and overthrowing governments. His focus is to be spiritual, not worldly; eternal, not temporal. The Apostles lived under an exceedingly oppressive government, yet nowhere do we see them involved in the type of activities that Sileven concerns himself with. "Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, WHO MIND EARTHLY THINGS.) For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ" (Philippians 3:17-19).

Second, Sileven refused to practice biblical separation. He intermingled with men who held unscriptural doctrines, including Pentecostalism, Mooneyism, and Covenant Theology. He also intermingled with and read books by angry white supremacist, anti-government types. This is evident in the books he quotes, distributes, and recommends.

Sileven's attitude toward biblical separatism and Fundamentalism is evident in an "Open Letter to a Fundamentalist" which he wrote in 1985. He speaks of "self-righteous, sanctimonious Fundamentalists ... these Fundamentalist gripers ... self-enthroned fundamentalist gurus..."

Today Sileven stands as a fearful example of God's warning that "evil communications corrupt good manners" (1 Cor. 15:33) and that the root of bitterness can defile (Hebrews 12:14,15). Today he displays an incredible inability to rightly divide the Word of God. He is spiritually blind. He is hardhearted toward the attempts by men of God to turn him from the error of his way.

Just because he wears the Baptist name does not make him a Baptist. He is not. It is evident that he believes in much heresy and is probably not even saved. The first condition of being a Baptist is that he first be regenerated, and then baptized. His adherence to these doctrines makes his salvation questionable, and thus being a Baptist is out of the question. As far as being an IFBer, he hold contempt for all fundamentalism.
DHK

 

"Quit coming up with excuses and answer the allegations "officially". To not do so only harms the church, it helps no one."

Anything official would be twisted by you.
There is nothing I could say that would prove anything to you as you are bent on remaining in darkness.

Matthew 6:23
"But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!

Too bad your going to raise that cute little girl your holding in such biggotry.


[ June 20, 2003, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: thessalonian ]

 

Some said that Bill Clinton was a Baptist. He is more of a Catholic than a Baptist. The Baptists don't own him.

Billy Graham went to BJU, became a Baptist preacher in his early days. But he is not longer a Baptist. Because he used to be a Baptist doesn't make him one now.

I have tried to point this out to you before, but you fail to understand the concept.

#1 There is no such thing in the Bible as a
denomination or organization of churches, or Catholic Church as such.

#2. The Bible only describes independent churches, each church completely independent from one another. No church had any authority over any other. No pastor had any authority over any other.

#3. A person is defined by his beliefs. "They were first called Christians at Antioch." Why? The word means "follower of Christ." That is what they did, follow Christ, not the pope.

#4. The Catholic Church does not have independent churches like that of the Bible. They all are bound together under one huge hierarchy (totally unbiblical), all having one unbiblical man-made catechism.

#5. Our church specifically, being an IFB church, is not part of any denomination, organization, association, convention, etc. We are totally independent just like the New Testament churches were.

#6. The definition of a Baptist church is: an association of Baptized believers[/] who have come together to obey the Great Commission and other commandments of Christ, and carry out the two ordinances (baptism and the Lord's table).

#7. By very defition of a Baptist Church, if the person is not a "baptized believer" he is not a member of the church, no matter what name he attaches to himself. If he claims to be an IFBer, if he is not born again, he is not a Baptist, an IFB; but just an unsaved pagan who needs the grace of God in his life.

#8. On the contrary, a person enters the Catholic Church upon their baptism as an infant. They (in theory) can grow up as devils and still be Catholics because they have been baptized. Thus the Catholic Church is full of unregenerate wicked individuals who claim to be Catholics because of their baptism no matter what their lifestyle maybe.

#9. I hope by now you can see the difference in ecclesiology between the Catholics and the Baptists, and how big a difference it makes in the composition of their churches. That is why we don't have men like the ones that you have referred to--members of the Aryan nations, Christian Identity movement, people holding to outright heresies. They would never meet the qualifications of a Baptist.

#10. To become a member of our church, and most Baptist churches, candidates are voted in by the membership of the entire church. They just don't automatically become Baptist via their baptism. They must be accepted into membership by the local church membership.
DHK