Cardinal Manning said...

Your search of the web only produced that one site?

Here are a few more for you.

http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/aah/radford_10_3.htm

"Thom Robb, a Detroit-born son of a builder, attended a Colorado seminary under Kenneth Goff, a minister with anti-Semitic views. Robb then became a Baptist minister, opened up a print shop, and began publishing right-wing tracts and promoting White supremacist causes. In 1989 the Baptist minister became a Grand Wizard of the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan."

http://www.caravelabooks.com/stjoe.htm

"Inside the Klan zone, a special Klan press group is filming and doing the official Klan report on the event. A British team is writing the story of Thomas Robb's life, and is allowed in the Klan zone, too. Pastor Thomas Robb is a Baptist minister."

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/45a/121.html
"Harrison is the homebase of Thom Robb of the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, which, since the demise of the Invisible Empire, is the largest Klan faction in the US. Robb's KKK compound in Zinc is the site of an annual meeting of Christian Identity believers, a National Klan congress, and a so-called non-Klan related gathering. Robb's guests include skinheads, neo-Nazis, and members of Aryan Nations, as well as Klansmen."

Well, you get the idea.

 

Your search of the web only produced that one site?

Here are a few more for you.

http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/aah/radford_10_3.htm

"Thom Robb, a Detroit-born son of a builder, attended a Colorado seminary under Kenneth Goff, a minister with anti-Semitic views. Robb then became a Baptist minister, opened up a print shop, and began publishing right-wing tracts and promoting White supremacist causes. In 1989 the Baptist minister became a Grand Wizard of the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan."

http://www.caravelabooks.com/stjoe.htm

"Inside the Klan zone, a special Klan press group is filming and doing the official Klan report on the event. A British team is writing the story of Thomas Robb's life, and is allowed in the Klan zone, too. Pastor Thomas Robb is a Baptist minister."

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/45a/121.html
"Harrison is the homebase of Thom Robb of the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, which, since the demise of the Invisible Empire, is the largest Klan faction in the US. Robb's KKK compound in Zinc is the site of an annual meeting of Christian Identity believers, a National Klan congress, and a so-called non-Klan related gathering. Robb's guests include skinheads, neo-Nazis, and members of Aryan Nations, as well as Klansmen."

Well, you get the idea. </font>[/QUOTE]No I don't ge the idea at all. You're first link didn't even work. The second link was a vile conversation/report by a so-called reporter using vile four letter words. His report was hardly objective.
The third link simply linked Robb to the Christian Identity Movement, a cult, nothing to do with the Baptists. I reiterate--this man has nothing to do with the Baptists. Do not slander us.
DHK

 

DHK:

The only vomit is see is the KKK website you gave with it’s own revisionist history of itself. http://www.kkklan.com/briefhist.htm


As far as the other information you presented this is even sadder. And yes, I refuse to accept it. Nice, slight of hand with the links DHK , but Charles Carroll of Carrollton is not the same man as Charles Carroll who wrote the book The Negro A Beast which is associated with the KKK movement.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03379c.htm

http://www.mac-001.com/philo/crit/SLAVE.TXT
http://www.carm.org/list/christian_identity.htm


The book The Negro A Beast was written 1900, and the Catholic New Advent site is talking about a man born in 1737 and died 1832. Same name though. Nice try. But I am sure you don’t care because you can say this “proves” something nasty about Catholics.

I would ask for you to explain the dating problem here, but, this is really pathetic and a waste of time for me.

God Bless

[ June 18, 2003, 07:40 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]

 

It was an honest mistake.

 

Thank you. I can accept that.

God Bless

 

It was an honest mistake. </font>[/QUOTE]Could you go one step farther for us. An overzealous "honest" mistake.

 

Lorelei,

I am bringing this forward because I am interested in those quotes from 30's and 40's baptists with the supperior discerning spirit that they have making these bold statements that you say were not found in the Catholic Church. Surely the Holy Spirit that indwells in at least some of them who are true Christians manifest itself in the manner that you require of our Catholic Clergy. Perhaps 5 quotes will do from various baptist pastors. And while the head of the SBC or whatever branch of baptists you are may not claim infallibility I would think that that discerning spirit that you guys have should be able to tell he is a true Christian and so according to your criteria would have made such statements. I'll be checking back later tonight. Thanks.

 

It took a lot of mental gymnastics to make that "honest" mistake. I also noted that I did not get an apology, but only an excuse. I would love to know how he put those three articles together by accident.

God Bless

[ June 18, 2003, 09:05 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]

 

Hi Lorelei,

You will not hear me apologizing for sharing the truth about catholicism.

I haven't asked for you to apologize for sharing the truth about catholicism. I'm asking for you to apologize for the libel that you have committed.

I have not lost sight of the fact that you still have yet to show me a quote where the pope specifically denounced what Hitler did to the Jews.

Oh, but I did. It was in Dalin's article, but you didn't read it, did you?

Of course you didn't. I inserted the following paragraph in his article:

"By the way, if you would, please - in your reply - state that you've read this material. That way, I'll know that you're actually reading what I post."

Missed that one, didn't you?

If you would have read the article, specific instances of Pius XII's explicit condemnation of the Holocaust are given. Of course, you didn't read the article because you simply don't want the truth. You're disinterested, and you'd rather further your own personal bias.

You've shown your true colors, Lorelei, and I really have to ask myself why I should even continue to respond to you when you really just don't give a hoot regarding the truth. Why should I continue to post to someone who is so entrenched within and loving of their own ignorant prejudice?

Here is one small sample of what was in the article that I posted for you:

"Pius XII's Christmas addresses of 1941 and 1942, broadcast over Vatican radio to millions throughout the world, also help to refute the fallacious claim that Pope Pius was "silent." Indeed, as The New York Times described Pius' 1941 Christmas address in its editorial the following day, it specifically applauded the Pope, as a "lonely" voice of public protest against Hitler: "The voice of Pius XII is a lonely voice in the silence and darkness enveloping Europe this Christmas…In calling for a 'real new order' based on 'liberty, justice, and love'…the Pope put himself squarely against Hitlerism. Recognizing that there is no road open to agreement between belligerents 'whose reciprocal war aims and programs seem to be irreconcilable,' Pius XII left no doubt that the Nazi aims are also irreconcilable with his own conception of a Christian peace." The Pope's Christmas message of 1941, as reported by The New York Times and other newspapers, was understood at the time to be a clear condemnation of Nazi attacks on Europe's Jews."

"So, too, was the Pope's Christmas message of the following year. Pope Pius XII's widely-discussed Christmas message of December 24, 1942, in which he expressed his passionate concern "for those hundreds of thousands who, without any fault of their own, sometimes only by reason of their nationality or race, are marked down for death or progressive extinction," was widely understood to be a very public denunciation of the Nazi extermination of the Jews. Indeed, the Nazis themselves interpreted the Pope's famous speech of Christmas 1942 as a clear condemnation of Nazism, and as a plea on behalf of Europe's Jews: "His [the Pope's] speech is one long attack on everything we stand for…he is clearly speaking on behalf of the Jews…he is virtually accusing the German people of injustice toward the Jews, and makes himself the mouthpiece of the Jewish war criminals."

I URGE you, Lorelei, to go back to the article and to READ IT, to read what I have been giving you, that is, to read what you haven't been reading.

But I doubt you will. You haven't yet. Why would you now?

[ June 19, 2003, 01:23 AM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

Newspaper reaction to Pacelli being elected Pope--
[Canadian Jewish Chronicle after election of Pacelli as Pope.] "The election of Cardinal Pacelli is more than merely a tribute to personal talent. It is the choice of a policy...The frantic attempts, therefore, which has [sic] been made by Nazis and Fascists to influence the election, by speech, suggestion and counsel, in favor of a cardinal friendlier to Hitler and Mussolini...was ultimately foiled. The clumsy advice which...Germany's Ambassador to the Vatican, recently gave to the College of Cardinals...has already received an answer as unequivocal as the advice was arrogant. The plot to pilfer the Ring of the Fisherman has gone up in white smoke."

In his 1942 Christmas statement, broadcast over Vatican Radio, Pope Pius XII said...that mankind owed this vow to all victims of the war, including "the hundreds of thousands who, through no fault of their own, and solely because of their nation or race have been condemned to death or progressive extinction." In making this statement, Pius used the Latin word "stirps," which means race, but which had been used throughout Europe for centuries as an explicit reference to Jews.

On January 26, 1940, the Jewish Advocate in Boston reported: “The Vatican radio this week broadcast an outspoken denunciation of German atrocities in Nazi [occupied] Poland, declaring they affronted the moral conscience of mankind.”

[January 24, 1942] ...the New York Times reported: "Vatican City radio station made two broadcasts today, adding many details to the atrocities that supposedly are being committed in German-occupied Poland. It is now clear that the papacy is throwing the whole weight of its publicizing facilities into an expose of conditions which, yesterday's broadcast said "profoundly pained" the Pope."

As the New York Times editorialized on Christmas Day, 1941, the Pope had placed himself squarely against Hitlerism: "The voice of Pius XII is a lonely voice in the silence and darkness enveloping Europe this Christmas...he is about the only ruler left on the Continent of Europe who dares to raise his voice at all....the Pope put himself squarely against Hitlerism...he left no doubt that the Nazi aims are also irreconcilable with his own conception of a Christian peace."

Pirro Scavizzi was a military chaplain attached to the hospital train of the Sovereign Order of Malta, which went to the Eastern front with Italian troops in 1942. He was used as clandestine courier to carry messages from the Polish bishops to the Vatican. Scavizzi said that when he told Pius about the conditions in Poland, the Pope replied, "Tell everyone...that many times have thought of hurling excommunications at Nazism, of denouncing the bestiality of the extermination of the Jews to the civilized world. Serious threats of reprisal have come to our ears, not against our person, but against our unhappy sons who are now under Nazi domination...After many tears and many prayers, I came to the conclusion that a protest from me would not only not help anyone, but would arouse the most ferocious anger against the Jews and multiply acts of cruelty because they are undefended. Perhaps my solemn protest would win me some praise from the civilized world, but would bring down on the poor Jews an even more implacable persecution than the one they are already enduring."

“When in September 1939, the Germans executed 214 Polish priests, imprisoned another 1000, exiled Cardinal Hlond and a number of bishops, and closed down several churches, ‘the Vatican radio’ Guenter Lewy tells us, ‘told the story to the world.’ But when reprisals for these publications made things progressively worse, ‘Cardinal Sapieha, the Archbishop of Cracow, repeatedly pleaded with the Pope to stop the protesting, as it only made things worse.’”

As one bishop who was imprisoned at Dachau reported: “The detained priests trembled every time news reached us of some protest by religious authority, but particularly the Vatican. We all had the impression that our wardens made us atone heavily for the fury these protests evoked...whenever the way we were treated became more brutal, the Protestant pastors among the prisoners used to vent their indignation on the Catholic priests: ‘Again your big naïve Pope and those simpletons, your bishops, are shooting their mouths off...why don’t they get the idea once and for all, and shut up. They play the heroes and we have to pay the bill.’”

...a German Jewish couple [Wolfsson] whom Pius XII helped escape through Rome to Spain: “None of us wanted the Pope to take an open stand. We were all fugitives, and fugitives do not wish to be pointed at. The Gestapo would have become more excited and would have intensified its inquisitions. If the Pope had protested, Rome would have become the center of attention. It was better that the Pope said nothing. We all shared this opinion at the time and this is still our conviction today.”

Ernst won Weizsacker, Germany’s Chief Secretary of Foreign Affairs until 1943 and then Ambassador to the Holy See, testified [in 1961]: “It was well known--everybody knew it--that the Jewish question was a sore point as far as Hitler was concerned. To speak of interventions and requests submitted from abroad, requests for moderation of the course taken, the results of these, almost in all cases, caused the measures to be made more aggravated, and more serious even, in effect.”

Weizsacker [German Ambassador to the Vatican] later explained: "Any protest by the Pope would result in the deportations being really carried out in the thoroughgoing fashion. I know how our people react in these matters."

Ernst von Weizsacker, German ambassador to the Vatican during the war...: “A ‘flaming protest’ by the Pope would not only have been unsuccessful in halting the machinery of destruction but might have caused a great deal of additional damage--to the thousands of Jews hidden in the Vatican and the monasteries, to the Mischlinge, the Church, the territorial integrity of the Vatican City, and--last but not least--to the Catholics in all of Germany-occupied Europe.”

 

The link may not work but I gave you the quote. That the link does not work does not change the words. It says Robb was a Baptist minister.

That some other person uses a couple of words that you find offensive doeswn't change the truth of the matter.

That Robb is also associated with the Christian identity Movement wouldn't change the fact that he is also a Baptist pastor.

I've found other interesting things about other Baptist pastors associated with the KKK. Shall I post those too?

 

I haven't committed any.

I did see it, but, not being a child, I didn't feel the need to address this childish remark. Your condescending attitude is really uncalled for and merely evidence that you just can't stand the fact that someone dare speak out against your church. If you want to discuss, then fine, but do not dare say you know what I have read and have not read.

I will show you in your hightlights how what I said did indeed apply to your article. I am not going to allow you to demand of me what you refuse to do. You refuse to accept any of my resources based upon your own personal biases against the source from which it came. I will not merely trust yours because you say so. You will not find the pope's speech but you will find one man's spin on the pope's speech. Not every Jew believes as this man does and in a minute I will explain why.

And I am the one addressing the Catholic Church, not Carson's character, Thess's character, not any one person. I believe you do spread lies when you teach what the Catholic church teaches, but i realize that your do so, out of ignorance. I do not assume you willingly share the lie, since you do not realize it to be one. Your true colors really show when you so vehemently attack another poster who is posting only what she believes to be true.

Too vague, the following statements were "interpretation of what that meant".

All I know from certain from this quote is that the pope said something "for those hundreds of thousands". The quote merely says it was some "concern" for them. What kind, where is the rest of the pope's words? I don't want to hear what the Rabbi thought the world understood those words to mean. The Rabbi can't possibly know what the rest of the world thought those words meant. Finish the quote, show me what the pope said, unadulterated and uninterpreted.

I have news for you, from an actual news organization. Not all the world agrees with this Rabbi. There was more than just silence from the Catholic Church and Jews are still not satisified. Not only this, but the fact that the pope is attempting to apologize shows that even HE realizes there are many things in your church's history that DOES need to be apologized for. Could this infallible man be wrong? Maybe you should introduce him to the Rabbi.

Here is a news artice from CBS News about the pope's apology from March 12, 2000. Let us not forget, according to Carson, the pope could have easily reminded people that the catholic church was not silent but "was the lonely voice" crying out against it, and he did no such thing.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2000/03/12/world/main171032.shtml

But there is more to it than that. It appears the church was not only silent, but that they profited from Jewish slave labor. Here is another article from the same day

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2000/03/12/national/main171129.shtml

See, and this is why these "vague" apologies do not carry any weight with the Jewish community, and the reason the Catholic church will not make a bold statement denouncing the holocaust. The Catholic Church is guilty for committing their own crimes against the Jews, ones very similiar to those of Hitler and his nazi regime.

During the crusades the catholic church did not free the Holy land from the infidels for the Jews, but for themselves. They slaughtered many innocent Jews. Here how this Jewish community feels about all gentiles because of the evils preformed in the name of "Christ".

http://www.baruchhashem.com/resources/ibjchper.html

To highlight:

And what of Hitler's Jewish ghetto. Segragating those people, merely because of their race or nationality and making them wear an identifying mark if they were to ever walk outside the ghetto. Where could he even get such a vile and evil and hateful idea? Take a guess.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/g1/ghetto.asp

But I guess CBS News and "Encyclopedia.com" are misinformed catholic bashers trying to propagate their own vicious agenda too?

Sorry, you still have not shown me, or the the world that your church is the least bit sorry for the crimes of the holocaust and you never will, for if they do, they must admit their own grave crimes endorsed by their own "infallible" leader.

~Lorelei

(edited because I mistakenly credited Fox News with the articles from CBS news)

[ June 19, 2003, 02:04 PM: Message edited by: Lorelei ]

 

I get reprimanded for saying that you do not use the "two wrongs make a right" argument and yet this is still what you are attempting to doing.

You expect us to find evidence of proclaiming our disassociation with a man that was never associated with us. Kind of an odd request coming from someone who refuses to acknowledge the fact that Hitler, who WAS associated with the catholic church, was never excommunicated from it.

It hits so hard you have no other alternative then to keep trying to force the subject to what we have done, but now you have taken it to an absurd extreme and are accusing of us of a wrong that you admit we were never associated with.

I see this for what it is and I believe the average reader can too. If you wish to actually address the issues brought up about your church, then please do. We are seeking proof of infallibilty, not comparisons of an allegedly infallible man to those who admit they are not. You are merely proving that your church is just as fallible as any other. The only thing is, yours is the only one that won't admit it.

~Lorelei

 

Man Lor, your a piece of work.

Once again that is not my arguement.
I mearly want to see evidence of this Holy Spirit that you claim to have within you and you believe other baptists have within them that is so superior to what us Catholics, you would say do not have. Certainly two wrongs don't make a right. So apparently you are admitting that no baptists made statements with regard to the Holocaust. Surely that Holy Spirit would have welled up in them and they would have cried out against this tragedy. Surely, it would not take an infallible man to make such statements. By the way, this is not the infallibility thread so I am free to ask about the Holy Spirit that you baptists claim to have if I like. Surely there must be some evidence of it.

Further, you have not proven anything from your side. We have shown far more evidence with regard to Pius XII's doing what he could for the Jews without and army to send. As for Hitler's excommunication, excommunications have usually been given to those who are in the public eye, still claiming to be a practicing Catholic, yet bringing scandal to the Church by their behavior or teachings. Hitler was not claiming to be a practicing Catholic. Further, excommunication is automatic in many cases, his included. You love to cast stones. There is nothing but venom in your words and lies and distortions and slander. I am sure that is apparent to all who read this board.

Can't we bring up issues about your Church? Where is this hope that is within you bursting forth. I just don't see it.

1 Peter 3:15
but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;


God bless you Lorelei.

[ June 19, 2003, 11:41 AM: Message edited by: thessalonian ]

 

I would love to share the hope that is within me!

The hope that is within me is the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ. Through my belief in him and him alone I have forgiveness of sins and the assurance of salvation in which I will one day be in heaven with Him. That hope that is within me is the Spirit that guaranteed the promises that He made to us through His Word.

I attend a Baptist Church merely to find a place to learn and grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. We gather to hear the teachings of the apostles, which were messages about Christ, his death, burial and most importantly His ressurection. How whoever believes on the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved, this promise is to all men everywhere!

My church, is not the hope that is within me, Jesus Christ is.

Can you bring up things about my church, sure you can. Start a thread and ask us questions about our church. But it is futile to try and get us to prove that a church that doesn't claim infallibilty is fallible. It is merely confirming what we teach, that no man is infallible, therefore we must all look to the Holy scriptures to see if what we are being taught is true.

~Lorelei

PS. I will amuse you though and give you one example that shows this entire line of questioning is silly.

I believe you have heard of Martin Luther King Jr. I hope you are aware that he was a preacher. The name of his church was "Ebenezer Baptist Church." If you would like to continue to proclaim that no baptist church stood against the KKK, then I think you have a lot of apologizing to do to the King family and many in the African Amerian Baptist community that stood for freedom and the end of segregation and who were brutalized, tortured and killed by the KKK.

Good day Thess

 

Okay, everybody! Let's have fun! Let's post all of the interesting things that we can about pastors and priests! Let's see, Ron, you get the KKK ones. Alright, I will need someone to find all of the names of priests accused of sex crimes. And let's see if we can find any about pastors and adultery. And if someone could update us on the hit-and-run priest, that would be fantastic! And while your at it, if you find any other dirt on sinful people that may discredit the organiztion they are associated with, throw it up here! By the end, we should have every church and organization discredited and then realize that it makes no sense to even call ourself a Christian because so many people have done bad things under that name! Are yall as excited as I am?????? (Yes, that is sarcasm.)

May the Lord Have Abundant Mercy on Us Sinful People,
Neal

 

My remark was related to DHK's position that Baptists are not involved with the KKK.

They are.

What is the point in denying it?

Don't many Baptists believe in the Adamic Race?

What's that about?

 

Ron, I wasn't trying to attack you. My point is that all of this is silly and frivolous. Fine, there are Baptist pastors who have been/are associated with the KKK. There are Catholic priests who have been/are sexually abusing minors. There, that is it, let's move on.

The one thing that is definitely not happening here is that Christ is being glorified. My only prayer is that not many unsaved read all of this nonesense.

May the Lord Bless You,
Neal

[ June 19, 2003, 03:12 PM: Message edited by: neal4christ ]

 

Lorelei,

You keep demanding this condemnation of Hitler that the Pope should have made, if he were an infallible leader. Something occured to me. John the Apostle is know to have lived until around 100 AD. Jerusalem was destoryed in 70 AD. Josephus says that around 1 million Jews, men, women, and children, were slaughtered by the Romans. So something is bothering me according to your statement that an infallible man should condemn such atrocities. I don't seem to recall anything that John said condemning I think it was Ceasar, the Roman Emporer, who ordered that the Jews be exterminated at that time? Perhaps you have a verse since your so up on this topic.

Blessings