Carnal Christians: Yes? No?

[Tater77]

I guess freeatlast is now God's personal spokesperson as he must have inside knowledge the rest of us besides person #2 has

DHK provided Scripture plainly saying a believer can be carnal. Case closed.

Yes he thinks he is. He is a carnal Christian, case closed.

 

[Iconoclast]

And yet Paul states differently.

The issue needs to be qualified as to what Carnal not just means but also what it entails (giving depth and qualification).

Paul states they (brethren, also understood biblically as the redeemed) are still carnal, needing the milk and have not yet moved on to the meat of the word, because they still walk in accordance with the flesh.

The qualifier (in general here, not a specific word) is not that they are IN the flesh, NOT as in a state of being, but that they still do things according to the desires of the flesh. They have not yet put their own selves completely aside for the things of God.

Paul was writting to the church at Corinth and was not lauding their praise but the Now in this doctrinal passage in the book of Romans, in which Paul is setting forth the great doctrines of the grace of God and the work of the Spirit; I want you to notice in Romans 8. He contrasts two things constantly, the realm of the flesh and the realm of the Spirit. The carnal mind and the spiritual mind, and notice what he says. These two are mutually exclusive. Lets look now at verse 5. They that are after the flesh, they mind the things of the flesh, fleshly desire, fleshly longings. Those that are after the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. Carnally minded, death, a man who is given over to his baser appetites and to the flesh, the end of that is death. The end of the Spiritually minded man, life and peace. The carnal mind is at warfare with God, it is not subject to God, it cannot be. They that are in the flesh cannot please God. But you say, 'Pastor? That's referring to the man who is saved but who is still living in the flesh, and he can't please God in that state.' Is it? Look at verse 9, "But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

Do you know what Paul is saying? Get this now! He says a man who is living in the realm of the flesh cannot please God. If his basic desires and interests are this life and this flesh he can't please God. But Paul says this isn't true of you IF the Holy Ghost dwells in you, and when you got saved he came to dwell in you. And if he hasn't come to dwell in you, you are none of his. But he has come, you have been basically taken out of the realm of flesh and you have been put in the realm of Spirit, See? I don't know if you do, but this thrills me. Two spheres, two, not three, carnally minded - death, spiritually minded -life. And then he moves on in verse 13, if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die. 'Oh, that means the sin unto death!' Does it? The most spiritual people I know die, this is not speaking about physical death. It is talking about spiritual death! If you live after the flesh ye shall die. But if by the Spirit ye do mortify, or put to death the deeds of the flesh ye shall live. (For) as many as are led by the Spirit of God they (and only they) are the sons of God.

Ah, but you say, 'pastor, you mean a Christian never stumbles?' Wait a minute now we are going to deal with that problem. But let's get this first. Don't jump ahead of me. Do you see what he is saying? We have two spheres of existence, flesh - Spirit. We have two destinies, life - death, not three, two, degrees within them, yes, but only two spheres. Study this chapter, read it over till the Spirit of God opens your eyes on this.

majority of the book is written to 'correct' them. According to some on here, Paul messed up because he should not need to correct their walk as they should be walk spiritually because they are saved.

The issue is that God allows believers to walk or not walk spiritually as we 'should be'. We can get entangled in the world and be caught up in the flesh. The distinction though is that a believer will not STAY there. God will always bring them back to Himself vai chastening and or scorging. We do not know what God is doing in their lives but as believers, and if they are in open sin, we can not allow them to assume they can continue therein and stay in fellowship with us. That is why Paul states, for those who will not stop (obviously after first going to them privately, ect..), for them to be removed from the fellowship. Yet the very purpose is not absolute judgement against them, but to bring them back into proper fellowship with God and thus by extention back to the Church, His bride.

Hello Allan,
In post 18 I posted two links that explain it really well.When pastor Martin describes Paul's teaching in Romans 8 I think you will be satisfied with the explanation....I will post some of it now:

 

[Allan]

Hello Allan,
In post 18 I posted two links that explain it really well.When pastor Martin describes Paul's teaching in Romans 8 I think you will be satisfied with the explanation....I will post some of it now:

I have heard/listened to them.. and did not find them satisfactorily scriptural.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

In another thread, Iconoclast made the following statement:
"There are no carnal Christians."

He was referring to professing believers who don't act like it.

In my own church in years past, that's how we used to describe those who had made a public profession of faith, who had been baptized, were regular attendees for a while, and dropped out. Nobody wanted to challenge their salvation, so we called them carnal Christians, or, backsliders.

And all of us recognize that we all are still sinners, even if some of us are nearly perfect.

So the question for this thread. Is Iconoclast right or wrong?

Are there backsliders? Or were they never saved in the first place?

Good question. I believe that even a born again believer can sin and that this sin might even last for a season. But what I don't believe is that a born again believer can live in an ongoing lifestyle of willful disobedience, not feel conviction about it, not feel remorse over it, and not be repentant over it.

The problem is that we're so afraid to present the Biblical Gospel for fear of what the lost might say about us, that we pretend that somebody who says, "I said a prayer when I was nine years old and I've been living like the Devil for thirty years and now, praise God, I'm rededicating my life to the Lord" has a valid salvation testimony.

So in one sense, yes, I think you can backslide. However, the Bible makes the distinction between the carnal, sinful nature and the new, spiritual nature one receives upon being born again very clear so I don't believe a Christian can be carnal.

 

[DHK]

so I don't believe a Christian can be carnal.

I guess Paul was wrong then?

For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? (1 Corinthians 3:3-4)

 

[JohnDeereFan]

I guess Paul was wrong then?

Your understanding of Paul is wrong, yes.

 

[DHK]

Your understanding of Paul is wrong, yes.

No, it isn't. I don't see how anyone can misunderstand this clear-cut passage:

For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? (1 Corinthians 3:3-4)

He tells these believers at Corinth that they are carnal. There is only one way to take that statement: "You are carnal Christians." There is only one meaning to that passage: "You are carnal Christians." I don't find any other meaning.

He says: I can't feed you with meat.
You still have a diet of milk. Why? Because you are carnal Christians.
The carnality of the world stunts spiritual growth in the Christian. They will never attain the level of spirituality that Paul is referring to unless they separate from their worldliness, their divisiveness, their carnality.

 

[sag38]

I'm with DHK. It's as plain as the nose on most folks face.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

No, it isn't. I don't see how anyone can misunderstand this clear-cut passage:

And yet, you've managed to do just that.

 

[DHK]

And yet, you've managed to do just that.

Denial without evidence is not proof nor is it truth.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Look at how Paul uses the idea of carnality in Romans 8: 1-8:

1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

How can one be carnal, when to be carnally minded is death and the carnal mind is at emnity with God, and yet, be a Christian? Where in the Bible are Christians ever described as being at emnity with God? I thought that we were reconciled to God and made children of His.

Now look at the next passage:

9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Paul very clearly makes a distinction between those who are in the flesh (carnal) and those who who are in the Spirit (spiritual) and makes it very clear that those who are in the flesh do not belong to Christ.

 

[DHK]

Look at how Paul uses the idea of carnality in Romans 8: 1-8:

How can one be carnal, when to be carnally minded is death and the carnal mind is at emnity with God, and yet, be a Christian? Where in the Bible are Christians ever described as being at emnity with God? I thought that we were reconciled to God and made children of His.

Now look at the next passage:

Paul very clearly makes a distinction between those who are in the flesh (carnal) and those who who are in the Spirit (spiritual) and makes it very clear that those who are in the flesh do not belong to Christ.

A couple of comments.
First, context defines a word. You have taken the word "carnal" out of Romans 8 and tried to define its usage in 1Cor.3 by its usage in Romans 8. That doesn't work. Define carnal in the context of 1Cor.3, and stick to the context that Paul is using in 1Cor.3, not in Romans 8. That is one of the primary rules of hermeneutics.

You ask the question, "where in the Bible are Christians ever described as being at enmity with God?"

Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. (James 4:4)

The carnal Christian is the enemy of God. Is that strong enough language? God hates carnality in the Christian, and has much to say about it. Check Romans 12:2; 1John 2:15,16.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

A couple of comments.
First, context defines a word. You have taken the word "carnal" out of Romans 8 and tried to define its usage in 1Cor.3 by its usage in Romans 8. That doesn't work. Define carnal in the context of 1Cor.3, and stick to the context that Paul is using in 1Cor.3, not in Romans 8. That is one of the primary rules of hermeneutics.

Actually, I never even mentioned 1 Cor 3, but thanks for completely misrepresenting what I said.

Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. (James 4:4)

And you really believe he's describing Christians, huh?

The carnal Christian is the enemy of God.

I stand by the question I asked you in my last post.

 

[Amy.G]

James 4:5 Do you think that the scripture says in vain, The spirit that dwells in us lusts to envy?

Apparently they were Christians.

 

[DHK]

Actually, I never even mentioned 1 Cor 3, but thanks for completely misrepresenting what I said.

I have. You have been the one that has been consistently denying my interpretation of 1Cor.3 throughout. So step up to the plate. Your interpretation of Romans 8 does not negate the plain words of Paul in 1Cor.3 as Paul writes to the believers there and plainly tells these believers "You are carnal."
Nothing you post has told me that Paul is a liar, or that my interpretation is wrong. Paul meant what he said, and said what he meant. His Greek is as good as the English we read it in. It is a closed case except it were for someone's bias.

And you really believe he's describing Christians, huh?

Again context is key. Who is James writing to? He is writing to believers. Every chapter he addresses as "brethren." He does not address unbelievers as "brethren." The entire theme of the book is "Practical Christian Living." He is teaching how to live a practical life in this world. And carnality is not one of those ways.

A few verses later we find that he is speaking to brethren:
Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge. (James 4:11)

In the following verse that I quoted to you (4), here is what he says:
Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy? (James 4:5)
--The spirit (meaning the Holy Spirit) dwells in US, (James includes himself) lusts to envy? No it does not. One that is given to carnality does, but the Holy Spirit does not.

The previous verse that I quoted to you (4) speaks of prayer:
Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts. (James 4:3)
--Their prayers were carnal and not spiritual. They were asking for the wrong things, selfish things. In the midst of these two verses, James says this:

Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. (James 4:4)
--Absolutely, he is speaking to Christians. Look again in the context:

Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts. Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy? (James 4:3-5)
--How can you come to any other conclusion? This is written to Christians not to live a carnal life. God hates it.

I stand by the question I asked you in my last post.

I sit behind mine, as I type it out.
But I am sure that your position is wrong.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

I sit behind mine, as I type it out.
But I am sure that your position is wrong.

If you believe you can be carnal and still be a Christian, then I guess that explains a lot.

 

[DHK]

If you believe you can be carnal and still be a Christian, then I guess that explains a lot.

For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? (1 Corinthians 3:3-4)

It explains what you cannot explain, and therefore resort to personal attack. This is typical isn't it?

 

[Iconoclast]

Denial without evidence is not proof nor is it truth.

Did you have time to listen to the posted sermon or look at the posted links,they answer quite nicely.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

It explains what you cannot explain, and therefore resort to personal attack. This is typical isn't it?

Yes, sadly, your false accusations are typical of this place.

 

[DHK]

Yes, sadly, your false accusations are typical of this place. Why don't you run along and play with the others in your little clique.

There is no false accusation. Three times (at least) I have asked you this:

For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? (1 Corinthians 3:3-4)

It explains what you cannot explain, and therefore resort to personal attack. This is typical isn't it?

That was my last quote.
Each and every time you have failed to expound that passage. You have failed miserably. You won't even touch it. All you give is a denial making Paul a liar. Your basic answer is "there is no such thing as a carnal Christian," after I quote a passage where Paul says "You are carnal." You still are in denial of God's Word, and still refuse to explain it.