Carnal Disobedient Christianity vs. Biblical Obedient Christianity

[Iconoclast]

Anyone who agrees with John R. Rice.
Anyone who agrees with my position is unsaved.

Here Protestant calls me a carnal Christian and unsaved.
Yes, I had an initial act of faith and called upon the Lord.
He is insecure in such a testimony and will deny my salvation.

He misuses Mat.7:21ff, which speaks about false teachers and not carnal believers as he supposes.
He is wrong.
As I said in my reply to him, such vitriolic posting is not needed here.

He did not even mention you....stop being paranoid. You say he called YOU that....he did not.

If you agree with such posting you are welcome to leave as well.
Calling or inferring to your brothers and sisters in Christ as unregenerate will not be tolerated.

You are devisive. It is you who claim this is going on. PT spoke as the scriptures do of false professors.

That is a legitimate concern and warning to give in discussing this topic.

YOU INFER MANY THINGS that are not so. The posting was good for a few days and you do this.

You have not provided one quote to back up your claim. This quote does not say what you want it to.

You accused him of holding to a works based salvation, then gave a dishonest response trying to explain it away.

this is false;

I did not say; "Protestant

believes in a works salvation[/b] did I?
I said "it SEEMS that you believe in a works salvation. There is a big difference. The word means: to appear to believe, have the appearance, similitude, seem, etc. I didn't say that is what he believed.

[/B]

This is WHAT you did say;

It seems that the Bible testifies against your works-based salvation.

This kind of dishonest posting should not take place on a Christian board.

 

[DHK]

This kind of dishonest posting should not take place on a Christian board.

I am not the one being dishonest.

But let me suggest this. I believe both of you should contact "John of Japan," a longstanding member of this board and former missionary to Japan. He is the grandson of Dr. John R. Rice and has just completed writing his biography. Contact him, and ask for his biography. Learn about him first hand as it were. Stop with the wicked innuendo and accusations of the brethren. Stop calling them unsaved. Find out what he really believed. Ask his grandson who is on the board. Stop with the insults and slander. Go find out the truth for yourself. Read his book.

Then when you have done that, perhaps we can continue this conversation in a more intelligent and amicable way.

 

[Protestant]

Parables Which Differentiate Genuine Christians From Carnal

1. The Parable of the 4 Soils

In this parable Christ identifies 4 types of professing Christians.

(Please note only the last type is genuine, proving ‘few’ actually enter the strait gate.)

The first soil represents the hard-hearted who refuse to believe essential doctrinal truths such as the Trinity, the Deity of Christ and of the Holy Spirit, salvation by the grace of God freely given according to His good pleasure, God’s condemnation of idolatry, the satisfaction of Christ’s perfect never-to-be repeated substitutionary sacrifice, etc., etc. Such as these are some members of this Board.

The second soil represents the stony hearted carnal professing Christian whose faith is superficial. He recited a ‘Sinner’s Prayer,’ got baptized and even joined a tithing local church where he sings in the choir. Though he believed in the historical Jesus, he had not saving, justifying faith. To this carnal Christian dying to self was not on his to-do-list.

The third soil represents the carnal Christian whose real love is not Christ, but rather the many carnal blessings which the preacher promised was his, should he ‘give his heart’ to Jesus. Such as these are found in abundance watching the ‘Christian’ TV preachers known as ‘Prosperity Preachers.’ Even Christ rebuked the crowds who followed Him - not for the Word of Life freely given - but for the carnal meal freely given.

The fourth soil represents those hearts considered ‘good.’ Not that the hearts of men are naturally good, for they are naturally evil.

It is in these hearts that God has graciously worked the miracle of regeneration, exchanging stones for flesh.

These hearts have been prepared to receive the Word of Life, without which preparation the seed of the Word would have had little effect.

Conclusion:

Those whom God has regenerated, in whom He has effectually planted His Word, those will necessarily bring forth the good fruit of the Spirit, including repentance, faith, good works, love, obedience, perseverance, and, of course, holiness.

It is the Lord who makes the tree good which then necessarily brings forth good fruit.

It is the Father who planted the good tree in the first place.

Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?

13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.

Preach the necessity of repentance and holiness and you will offend many.

 

[Iconoclast]

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them and they follow me.

To follow Christ is to obey Christ.

Christ’s teaching is abundantly clear: Christ’s sheep will obey Him.

They will hear His voice and obey, whether by the Gospel unto salvation, or by rebuke unto repentance, turning from sin as a sheep gone astray.

No matter. Jesus is clear.

His Elect will be brought into the Kingdom under obedience to His voice.

It is obedience to His voice that proves one’s love for Christ.

If you love me you will keep my commandments. (ESV)

Obedient Christians are the friends of Christ.

Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

The disobedient professing Christians are the enemies of Christ.

Their continued disobedience proves hatred for Christ.

Disobedient professing Christians have not the Spirit of God who sanctifies them.

They are still in the flesh; their wills having not been made subject to the will of God.

Rather than be called ‘overcomers,’ they are still overcome with sin.

Only overcomers will enter New Jerusalem.

Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name

Biblical Christians are not perfect, but when confronted with sin they will repent and strive to cease such disobedience.

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Make no mistake.

Carnal ‘Christianity’ is anti-Christianity.

It is the Christianity of reprobates.I have not mentioned Dr.Rice. He did what he did unto the Lord years ago.

Stop with the wicked innuendo and accusations of the brethren.

You did this. PT mentioned the warning passages speaking of the unsaved.
He did not accuse you. He did mention Dr.Rice he has an opinion on him.
The part I agree with was his description of true Christians;

 

[DHK]

In this parable Christ identifies 4 types of professing Christians.

That is your first mistake.

The first soil represents the hard-hearted who refuse to believe essential doctrinal truths such as the Trinity, the Deity of Christ and of the Holy Spirit, salvation by the grace of God freely given according to His good pleasure, God’s condemnation of idolatry, the satisfaction of Christ’s perfect never-to-be repeated substitutionary sacrifice, etc., etc. Such as these are some members of this are on this board.

Now you judge the salvation of others according to your standards and not Jesus. This is a good reason why you should not be here. It gives an indication that you yourself don't understand the truth of the gospel.

The second soil represents the stony hearted carnal professing Christian whose faith is superficial. He recited a ‘Sinner’s Prayer,’ got baptized and even joined a tithing local church where he sings in the choir. Though he believed in the historical Jesus, he had not saving, justifying faith. To this carnal Christian dying to self was not on his to-do-list.

Again, this has nothing to do with "another Christian." Your false theology is apparent.
Either he is a Christian or he is not, carnal not withstanding.

The third soil represents the carnal Christian whose real love is not Christ, but rather the many carnal blessings which the preacher promised was his, should he ‘give his heart’ to Jesus. Such as these are found in abundance watching the ‘Christian’ TV preachers known as ‘Prosperity Preachers.’ Even Christ rebuked the crowds who followed Him - not for the Word of Life freely given - but for the carnal meal freely given.

See above. Either he is a Christian or he is not. You say he is a carnal Christian. So at least you admit now that carnal Christians exist. They are carnal but still saved. Christians don't lose their salvation because of their carnality.

The fourth soil represents those hearts considered ‘good.’ Not that the hearts of men are naturally good, for they are naturally evil.

It is in these hearts that God has graciously worked the miracle of regeneration, exchanging stones for flesh.

These hearts have been prepared to receive the Word of Life, without which preparation the seed of the Word would have had little effect.

Conclusion:

Those whom God has regenerated, in whom He has effectually planted His Word, those will necessarily bring forth the good fruit of the Spirit, including repentance, faith, good works, love, obedience, perseverance, and, of course, holiness.

That is not what the Word says. It is what you have read into the word, just like the Catholics read into Acts 16:31 (the word "household"), infant baptism. It must be so. You are reading into Scripture your own presuppositions. The word "regeneration" is not there.

What did Jesus say:
Luk 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
--He heard the Word of God (see Acts 2:41). They kept it. That means they obeyed the word of God after they were saved. Their obedience after salvation brought forth fruit.
They: heard, retained, understood, believed and acted on that belief. They were saved, and then obeyed. The Bible says nothing different. It doesn't insert Calvin's doctrines here which you infer.

 

[DHK]

You did this. PT mentioned the warning passages speaking of the unsaved.
He did not accuse you. He did mention Dr.Rice he has an opinion on him.
The part I agree with was his description of true Christians;

Protestant's main rant was against John R. Rice. He clearly stated that Rice did not have the Spirit of God and therefore was unsaved.
You agreed with him. For this you need to repent.

 

[Iconoclast]

Protestant's main rant was against John R. Rice. He clearly stated that Rice did not have the Spirit of God and therefore was unsaved.
You agreed with him. For this you need to repent.

I told you what part I agreed with....

J.R.RICE is not a member of the BB.

Protestant is....

you said this to him questioning and denying his salvation;

Had Protestant "the Spirit of God" plus some spiritual discernment and an ability to study this passage he would have never made the foolish comment he just made.

 

[DHK]

I told you what part I agreed with....

J.R.RICE is not a member of the BB.

Protestant is....

you said this to him questioning and denying his salvation;

Let me lay it out for you in terms you understand since you clearly don't understand either his position, nor mine.

First. Protestant denies the teaching given in 1Cor.5:1-4 that a Christian can be carnal, as is evidenced throughout every part of this epistle of Paul to the Corinthians. He was addressing carnal Corinthians and their carnal lifestyles. Go back to my post and read my explanation. Don't ask for it here.

Second. Protestant believes that every "carnal Christian" is an unsaved person.

Third. Protestant believes that John R. Rice is a carnal Christian and therefore unsaved.

Fourth. I challenged Protestant on his beliefs and he has not answered to this day. We all sin. Sin is out of the carnal or sin nature. When we sin it is not from our spiritual nature is it? No, it is from our carnal nature.
Therefore Protestant has two choices:
1. He must admit that he believes in entire sanctification--sinlessness (as some Arminians do), OR,
2. He must admit that Christians act carnally as did the members of the Corinthian church.
--He has not answered that yet. Obviously he is at the horns of a dilemma.

Every member of this board is either sinless or acts out of their carnal nature at times.
Protestant believes therefor, that every member of this board is unsaved. That is the inference.
There is no such thing as a "carnal Christian." Then admit you live a sinless life. Do you sin out of your spiritual nature?

 

[Protestant]

2. The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares

Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil;

Christ’s Church is symbolized as the field which is worldwide.

But instead of Christ having a field/church devoid of impurities, having nothing but good seed/true Christians, the devil sows into it his people, the tares, who are not true Christians.

They are carnal, devoid of the Spirit and, as such, are enmity against God and His people.

Though their hearts are evil, to many their outward appearance passes as the real thing.

They are the religious enemies of Christ, as were the Pharisees and Sadducees.

CONCLUSION:

Christ’s visible Church worldwide consists of both the carnal and the born-again.

Christ's true Church, His invisible Church, consists of only the sovereignly regenerated Elect.

The destiny of the carnal professing Christian is hellfire and brimstone.

Yet another excellent reason to give diligence to make your calling and election sure.

Of this you can be sure: Preach the necessity of repentance and holiness and you will be vilified.

 

[Iconoclast]

[QUOTE="DHK,

Protestant believes therefor, that every member of this board is unsaved. That is the inference.

That is false witness.
He never said this!
Show where he said this!
He does not answer you because you accuse him falsely.

 

[Rippon]

He clearly stated that Rice did not have the Spirit of God and therefore was unsaved.

Hey Mr. Hypocrite! Now isn't that what you have said about John Calvin and myself scores of times?

 

[DHK]

Hey Mr. Hypocrite! Now isn't that what you have said about John Calvin and myself scores of times?

No, I have never said that about you.
I may have said something like that in relation to John Calvin in light of the murders he committed. He didn't show the fruit of the Spirit in the way he managed the affairs of the church or the city of Geneva, which he directed, either directly or indirectly.

 

[DHK]

2. The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares

Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil;

Christ’s Church is symbolized as the field which is worldwide.

But instead of Christ having a field/church devoid of impurities, having nothing but good seed/true Christians, the devil sows into it his people, the tares, who are not true Christians.

They are carnal, devoid of the Spirit and, as such, are enmity against God and His people.

Though their hearts are evil, to many their outward appearance passes as the real thing.

They are the religious enemies of Christ, as were the Pharisees and Sadducees.

CONCLUSION:

Christ’s visible Church worldwide consists of both the carnal and the born-again.

Christ's true Church, His invisible Church, consists of only the sovereignly regenerated Elect.

The destiny of the carnal professing Christian is hellfire and brimstone.

Yet another excellent reason to give diligence to make your calling and election sure.

Of this you can be sure: Preach the necessity of repentance and holiness and you will be vilified.

Why do you bifurcate?
A Christian is a Christian, one who follows Christ, a saint set apart for the glory of God, a believer in Christ, regenerated, etc. There is only one kind of Christian.

Thus your admission:
"Christ’s visible Church worldwide consists of both the carnal and the born-again."

is that the "Church" is made of carnal or disobedient Christians and those that are obedient.
Both are Christians, saved, believers in Christ, heaven-bound, no matter which way you look at it.
There is only one kind of Christian.

A sheep is a sheep is a sheep.

 

[DHK]

I told you what part I agreed with....

J.R.RICE is not a member of the BB.

Protestant is....

you said this to him questioning and denying his salvation;

John R. Rice's grandson is a member of this board. You owe him an apology.
You agreed with Protestant's entire post in principle.

 

[Rippon]

No, I have never said that about you.

You are lying.

I may have said something like that in relation to John Calvin in light of the murders he committed. He didn't show the fruit of the Spirit in the way he managed the affairs of the church or the city of Geneva, which he directed, either directly or indirectly.

You're just compounding lies. You've accumulated a very tall mountain so far.

 

[DHK]

You are lying.

You're just compounding lies. You've accumulated a very tall mountain so far.

There is both a search function and a quote function. Use it, or recant.

 

[DHK]

[QUOTE="DHK,


That is false witness.
He never said this!
Show where he said this!
He does not answer you because you accuse him falsely.

You do not read my posts nor do you seem to understand them.

Paul wrote to a carnal church full of carnal Christians living Carnal lifestyles. If you want a fuller explanation go back and find it in this thread.
However, Protestant believes "carnal Christian" equals unsaved. Ask him.
Protestant believes John R. Rice is a carnal Christian and therefore unsaved. Ask him.

Everyone on this board has sinned at sometime in their Christian life, if not everyday. True or false?
Does sin come from your carnal/sin nature or from your spiritual nature? Which one?
Is sin of the Holy Spirit?

Since Protestant denies the carnal nature, and states that all said "carnal Christians" are unsaved, the only option left for him is sinless perfection or entire sanctification. This he has not denied or clarified.
Which one do you believe Icon?
Are you perfect? Sinless?
Does your sin come from the Spirit of God.

Or does your sin come from your carnal nature like the Bible says it does?

 

[Rippon]

There is both a search function and a quote function. Use it, or recant.

I don't want to dredge up your vile filth.

 

[BobRyan]

In all the obligatory BB name-calling and vitriol it was difficult at first (starting at the end of this thread) to find something with an actual Bible text.

But then I found this.

You simply deny the scripture at this point.
Many do, astonishingly. To make your paradigm work there must be a direct denial of 1Cor.3:1-5.

1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
1Co 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
--He addresses them as brothers: saints in Christ, believers in the Lord.
Then four times in four verses he calls the carnal brethren. At this point your position seems to be a simple denial of the Word. If there was any church that was full of carnal believers it was the Corinthian church, and Paul spends his time correcting and rebuking various carnal lifestyles that they had been practicing. Yes, they were carnal lifestyles, doing on a regular basis.
1. Immorality. It wasn't a one time fling this man had. He was living continually in sin with "his father's wife,"..."such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles." It was a scandal; it was a lifestyle with him.
BTW, Paul never condemns this man as unsaved

1 Corinthians -- nice!

Paul does say that the man in 1Cor 5 is lost - as it turns out.

1 Cor 5
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

6 Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.


So if that guy fits your definition of "Carnal Christian" then
1. They are not allowed in church.
2. Christians are not allowed to even eat with them
3. They are turned over to Satan.

By contrast in a recent post - I saw the claim that if someone is not carnal they "must be sinless" - never ever committing a single sin. But in the division of 1cor 5 we do not have the "sinless" vs "one person that happened to covet one day" - rather we have church members vs someone who was totally lost and in church - with extreme lost behavior not even exhibited by the average lost person.

"By their fruits you SHALL know them" Matt 7.

Now as to the problem of unsaved Christians in Corinth.

1Cor 6
7 Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated? 8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God

 

[DHK]

I don't want to dredge up your vile filth.

Then just move on. I do not accuse you of being unsaved; never have.