In all the obligatory BB name-calling and vitriol it was difficult at first (starting at the end of this thread) to find something with an actual Bible text.
But then I found this.
1 Corinthians -- nice!
Paul does say that the man in 1Cor 5 is lost - as it turns out.
No he does not. He refers to him as a brother. He refers to him as a brother in verse 11.
The context is speaking of the members of the church--believers.
"fornication among you," the members or believers of the Corinthian Church.
If he were not a member no disciplinary action would be needed. One would simply ask the person to get up and leave and don't come back. Discipline is taken because he is a believer.
Check the instructions of Jesus in Matthew 18
which must be followed!
Mat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
--The dispute concerns only Christians. "brother"
Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but
if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
1 Cor 5
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.
So if that guy fits your definition of "Carnal Christian" then
This may be a carnal Christian, but not every carnal Christian is under discipline. Thus your paradigm is not logical. This passage is speaking of those put under discipline.
--Go to chapter six where some of the Corinthians were continually taking each other to court.
Were they not allowed in church, not allowed fellowship, and turned over to Satan? Of course not.
By contrast in a recent post - I saw the claim that if someone is not carnal they "must be sinless" - never ever committing a single sin. But in the division of 1cor 5 we do not have the "sinless" vs "one person that happened to covet one day" - rather we have church members vs someone who was totally lost and in church - with extreme lost behavior not even exhibited by the average lost person.
The claim is made that "carnal Christian = unsaved."
However all sin is carnal, and no sin comes from the spiritual nature but rather the carnal nature.
Therefore if one were not to have a carnal nature or deny his carnal nature he would have to be sinless. We all sin. We sin out of our flesh, that carnal nature--not the spiritual.
