Carnal or Lost

[Winman]

Well Dhk........These men actually know how to exegete the passage.....they show from the Greek text how Paul uses the natural man....The carnal......and as carnal in contrast....
Here you call the actual teaching of the word of God......Silly....? No wonder you have no understanding on the teaching.

Anyone who is not lazy......or wilfully ignorant of the passage...will listen to the sermons and see quite clearly you have no understanding of it.

You chide Winman for making things up.....and rightly so. In this case you are doing the same thing......and as usual. ....Our friend QF....gives the thumbs up to that which is false.

I am content to let the reader read and listen to the truth......While you try to twist it and attempt to suggest that I do not understand Paul here......very sad DHK....consider your ways.

Hey, I was staying completely out of this, but you had to go and say something about me anyway.

DHK is not making anything up, he just showed you where Paul FOUR TIMES said Christians were carnal.

You've got to get over this admiration for your Reformed church fathers thing, and learn to think for yourself. The scriptures are plain as day, it doesn't matter if you can find a thousand so called "scholars" that say different.

You know, they had scholars in Jesus day too, and they were in complete error MANY times.

Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err , not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

Mar 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living : ye therefore do greatly err .

Jesus said the Pharisees were blind leaders of the blind.

Mat 15:12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

The Pharisees were experts at the scriptures, yet Jesus called them blind leaders of the blind.

You need to let the scriptures tell you what they mean, and quit trying to interpret scripture to fit your presupposition.

Otherwise, you are going to end up in the ditch.

 

[Iconoclast]

Winman......how could I mention holding a wrong view of scripture and not acknowledge your mighty contribution. ..?
The fact that you agree with DHK and his error......seals the deal!!!! Thank you.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Where in the op is it stated the purpose of this thread was to restore a brother?

It wasn't. See my only other post on this thread. The one most of the Cals don't like.

 

[evangelist6589]

A brother and sister both made profession of faith as teens, both attended church for about a year, know both in their 30's and neither are going to church, both drink ( I know nothing wrong with that to some ) party and just do what they want. Mother say's Carnal ( 1 Corth. 3 ) I say Lost. What say you? I'm not trying to judge, just wondering your thoughts.

No such thing as a carnal Christian. Read what Jesus said of those that will stand before him on that great day and profess their many works. There are true and false converts. A true convert may fall into sin but he will rebound as I did. Paul Washer has a good book or books on this topic I suggest you read.

The gospel call and True Conversion

 

[DHK]

Well Dhk........These men actually know how to exegete the passage.....they show from the Greek text how Paul uses the natural man....The carnal......and as carnal in contrast....
Here you call the actual teaching of the word of God......Silly....? No wonder you have no understanding on the teaching.

Anyone who is not lazy......or wilfully ignorant of the passage...will listen to the sermons and see quite clearly you have no understanding of it.

You chide Winman for making things up.....and rightly so. In this case you are doing the same thing......and as usual. ....Our friend QF....gives the thumbs up to that which is false.

I am content to let the reader read and listen to the truth......While you try to twist it and attempt to suggest that I do not understand Paul here......very sad DHK....consider your ways.

I don't make things up. I quote to you the Word of God.
I have shown to you that four times Paul states, affirms, and even scolds the Corinthians that they are carnal. It is the very reason that he could not feed them the meat of the Word but had to feed them milk, another indication that they were Christians--yet carnal Christians.

You have rejected the Word, perhaps only because it is my explanation of the Word, and your pride won't allow you to accept "my" explanation. That is sad.
The only rebuttal you can give. "These other men say..." That is also sad.
You can't give any answer of your own.

And yet the Bible says:
"But sanctify the Lord in your heart and be ready always to give an answer to every man..."
--It doesn't say, "Be ready to give a "link" to every man, but an answer, which you are unable to do. That again is sad.

 

[DHK]

No such thing as a carnal Christian. Read what Jesus said of those that will stand before him on that great day and profess their many works. There are true and false converts. A true convert may fall into sin but he will rebound as I did. Paul Washer has a good book or books on this topic I suggest you read.

The gospel call and True Conversion

If there is no such thing as a carnal Christian why did Paul say there was?
Do you believe the words of man or the words of God?
The question is that simple.

 

[Servent]

Lost my password couldn't post. I have know these two for many many years and have talked to each of them many times, true I don't know their heart but I do know them.

 

[webdog]

Yep sure do. There's a Biblical model for it and that's what you've been given. Your personal relationships will mirror your relationship with Christ. You treat Him like crap, and you'll treat everyone else the same way.

You love Him with all your heart, soul, mind and body and you will likewise display that same sort of love for your neighbor.

It's not complicated.

Perhaps your seeming offense is arising because you know you weren't what you thought you were for 15 years.



There is no love in selfishness. You really think it's a display of love to not talk to a person you supposedly love for 15 years?

Are you presenting to us that you can go 15 years without acknowledging your wife or speaking to her and it's a display of love?

you are completely ignorant. You have no clue what you are talking about, and to judge the heart of another is idolatry. Repent...and then go get yourself a clue. You are acting as a Pharisee.

 

[kyredneck]

No such thing as a carnal Christian....

Most, probably the vast majority, of His children are carnal. Few there are that ever reach the spirituality of 2 Pet 1:5-11.

 

[webdog]

No such thing as a carnal Christian. Read what Jesus said of those that will stand before him on that great day and profess their many works. There are true and false converts. A true convert may fall into sin but he will rebound as I did. Paul Washer has a good book or books on this topic I suggest you read.

The gospel call and True Conversion

What did you rebound from?

 

[Winman]

Winman......how could I mention holding a wrong view of scripture and not acknowledge your mighty contribution. ..?
The fact that you agree with DHK and his error......seals the deal!!!! Thank you.

Unlike you, I am known for interpreting the scriptures LITERALLY, even by those who disagree with me. My greatest criticism is that I interpret the scriptures for what they SAY not what they mean, which is a silly argument, if scriptures do not mean what they say then they are unintelligible.

But even my opponents do not accuse me of twisting or perverting the scriptures.

You should quit listening to these Reformed so called "scholars". They interpret the scriptures with the presupposition that Calvinism is an accurate interpretation of scripture. Whenever they run into any scripture which disagrees or contradicts Calvinism (which is often), they twist the scripture or redefine it so that it agrees with TULIP. This is a recipe for disaster.

Believe me, I disagree with DHK all the time, he loves to read his presuppositions into scripture, perhaps more than you Calvinists do, but this time he is CORRECT.

Christians can be carnal, Sampson, Solomon, and Lot come to mind, even Noah. Noah drank so much he passed out naked in his tent. Lot had to flee Sodom with what he could carry on his back, yet he had wine that his daughters used to get him drunk and commit incest with him. Solomon had hundreds of wives and concubines that caused him to build groves to idols in his later life, and Sampson was as carnal as you could get. Sampson left his wife, then took her back again when she belonged to another man. He gambled and murdered 30 innocent men for their coats to settle a bet he lost, and he visited a prostitute on a regular basis. Christians can be, and often are carnal.

 

[RLBosley]

Unlike you, I am known for interpreting the scriptures LITERALLY, even by those who disagree with me. My greatest criticism is that I interpret the scriptures for what they SAY not what they mean, which is a silly argument, if scriptures do not mean what they say then they are unintelligible.

But even my opponents do not accuse me of twisting or perverting the scriptures.

You should quit listening to these Reformed so called "scholars". They interpret the scriptures with the presupposition that Calvinism is an accurate interpretation of scripture. Whenever they run into any scripture which disagrees or contradicts Calvinism (which is often), they twist the scripture or redefine it so that it agrees with TULIP. This is a recipe for disaster.

Believe me, I disagree with DHK all the time, he loves to read his presuppositions into scripture, perhaps more than you Calvinists do, but this time he is CORRECT.

Christians can be carnal, Sampson, Solomon, and Lot come to mind, even Noah. Noah drank so much he passed out naked in his tent. Lot had to flee Sodom with what he could carry on his back, yet he had wine that his daughters used to get him drunk and commit incest. Solomon had hundreds of wives and concubines that caused him to build groves to idols in his later life, and Sampson was as carnal as you could get. Sampson left his wife, then took her back again when she belonged to another man. He gambled and murdered 30 innocent men for their coats to settle a bet he lost, and he visited a prostitute on a regular basis. Christians can be, and often are carnal.

My what a mythology you've created for yourself...

Anyway... note all your examples are of believers, before the cross and before the pouring out of the Spirit. The dead, resurrection and ascension of Christ along with the giving of the Spirit in a new way, radically affected the way God's people behave. The gospel actually does change people. As Paul Washer says, "You really become new creatures! It's not just poetry!"

 

[Zaac]

If there is no such thing as a carnal Christian why did Paul say there was?
Do you believe the words of man or the words of God?
The question is that simple.

I believe it's being said that there is o such thing as a carnal Christian in the way that many in the church use the term.

It's bandied around to cover unChristlike behavior and no growth of 15-20 years and even lifetimes. That's not carnality. That's lost.

 

[DHK]

My what a mythology you've created for yourself...

Anyway... note all your examples are of believers, before the cross and before the pouring out of the Spirit. The dead, resurrection and ascension of Christ along with the giving of the Spirit in a new way, radically affected the way God's people behave. The gospel actually does change people. As Paul Washer says, "You really become new creatures! It's not just poetry!"

In 1Cor.11:30 the chastisement of the Lord came upon these carnal Christians, when Paul said:
"For this reason some of you are weak, some sickly, and some sleep (are dead).
These carnal Christians had abused the Lord's table. They came to it beforehand and had a meal in which many of the got drunk, were gluttonous, and Paul had also scolded them for their divisiveness. That is not being spiritual, but carnal. And God's chastisement came upon them.
It is a good example of carnal Christians, the very ones whom Paul references as being carnal in chapter three of the same book.

 

[kyredneck]

5 Yea, and for this very cause adding on your part all diligence, in your faith supply virtue; and in your virtue knowledge;
6 and in your knowledge self-control; and in your self-control patience; and in your patience godliness;
7 and in your godliness brotherly kindness; and in your brotherly kindness love.
8 For if these things are yours and abound, they make you to be not idle nor unfruitful unto the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 For he that lacketh these things is blind, seeing only what is near, having forgotten the cleansing from his old sins.
10 Wherefore, brethren, give the more diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never stumble:
11 for thus shall be richly supplied unto you the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. 2 Pet 1

.....imo, that applies to a whooooole lot of His children....

 

[DHK]

I believe it's being said that there is o such thing as a carnal Christian in the way that many in the church use the term.

It's bandied around to cover unChristlike behavior and no growth of 15-20 years and even lifetimes. That's not carnality. That's lost.

Are you sure about that?
Do you know what God says about such judgments>

Rom 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
Rom 2:2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

 

[Winman]

My what a mythology you've created for yourself...

Anyway... note all your examples are of believers, before the cross and before the pouring out of the Spirit. The dead, resurrection and ascension of Christ along with the giving of the Spirit in a new way, radically affected the way God's people behave. The gospel actually does change people. As Paul Washer says, "You really become new creatures! It's not just poetry!"

I could give examples of Christians who were carnal and sinned AFTER receiving the Spirit.

Ananias and Sapphira were born again Christians, yet they loved their money more than God and kept back part of the price they sold land for, lying to God himself. We know they were struck dead.

Simon the sorcerer believed, yet he desired to have the power of giving the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands.

A man in the church at Corinth was living with his father's wife.

Peter separated himself from non-Jews and had to be rebuked by Paul, many others had followed Peter's error.

Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

This was an on-going sin that other Jewish believers followed.

So, there are many instances of true Christians falling into sin, even in the NT.

 

[DHK]

I believe it's being said that there is o such thing as a carnal Christian in the way that many in the church use the term.

It's bandied around to cover unChristlike behavior and no growth of 15-20 years and even lifetimes. That's not carnality. That's lost.

On another thought:
Have you ever had unChristlike behaviour?
Surely you don't claim sinless and draw upon yourself the consequences of that claim stated in 1John 1:8,10.
So how long did that unChristlike behaviour last?

5 minutes? 5 hours? 5 days? 5 months? 5 years? 15 years?
For how long were you unchristlike? Who is the one to put the time limit on when a person is unChristlike and when he is not? You? I don't think so. You are not God and you don't know the heart.

 

[RLBosley]

I believe it's being said that there is o such thing as a carnal Christian in the way that many in the church use the term.

It's bandied around to cover unChristlike behavior and no growth of 15-20 years and even lifetimes. That's not carnality. That's lost.

Yes. This.

In 1Cor.11:30 the chastisement of the Lord came upon these carnal Christians, when Paul said:
"For this reason some of you are weak, some sickly, and some sleep (are dead).
These carnal Christians had abused the Lord's table. They came to it beforehand and had a meal in which many of the got drunk, were gluttonous, and Paul had also scolded them for their divisiveness. That is not being spiritual, but carnal. And God's chastisement came upon them.
It is a good example of carnal Christians, the very ones whom Paul references as being carnal in chapter three of the same book.

That's not carnal in the way it is typically used by those who talk about Carnal Christians. That term is used to describe people who supposedly get saved and yet have no change in their life. As found in the Scofield:

Paul divides men into three classes: psuchikos, "of the senses" (Jas. iii:15; Jude 19), or "natural," i.e. the Adamic man, unrenewed through the new birth (John iii:3, 5); pneumatikos, "spiritual," i.e., the renewed man as Spirit-filled and walking in the Spirit in full communion with God (Eph. v:18-20); and sarkikos, "carnal," "fleshly," i.e. the renewed man, who walking "after the flesh," remains a babe in Christ (I Cor. iii:1-4)"

That is not true. The gospel does change people.

I'm not saying you become perfect, but slowly (or quickly!) you will change. As Zaac said 15-20 years or entire lives with ought growth isn't carnality. That's lostness.

I could give examples of Christians who were carnal and sinned AFTER receiving the Spirit.

Ananias and Sapphira were born again Christians, yet they loved their money more than God and kept back part of the price they sold land for, lying to God himself. We know they were struck dead.

Not a pattern of living in carnality. They made a really stupid decision, but that is not the same as the false doctrine of Carnal Christianity.

Simon the sorcerer believed, yet he desired to have the power of giving the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands.

Simon was not saved.

A man in the church at Corinth was living with his father's wife.

That's probably your best support here. However, I am reluctant to shore up a doctrine on the little information we have about the actions of an unnamed man, briefly mentioned in one epistle.

Peter separated himself from non-Jews and had to be rebuked by Paul, many others had followed Peter's error.

Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

Again, not a life of Carnality as the Carnal Christian myth teaches. A one time mistake does not equal a life of "walking after the flesh."

This was an on-going sin that other Jewish believers followed.

Yes others followed but no this was a one time thing.

So, there are many instances of true Christians falling into sin, even in the
NT.

Of course. But that isn't the debate. That isn't what is being discussed here.

 

[Winman]

My what a mythology you've created for yourself

Anytime you think I have perverted scripture, you are welcome to show me how. But simply saying you disagree is not proof, you have to show where I actually interpreted scripture differently than what it plainly says.

In the meantime, many folks have made comments like this;

While I don't agree with Winman on everything (original sin), I have to say, if a totally unbiased person were to read this thread, Winman is making the rest of you look ridiculous. Your Calvinistic beliefs just fall very short compared to Scripture.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2116260&postcount=64

Again, show me where I have interpreted scripture wrong. If you can convince me, I will apologize for my error. Believe me, I do not think I am infallible, FAR from it.