Catholic accounting of its plunder...

[mioque]

Mike
"The bekennende Kirche...
The nationalreligöse Bewegung Deutsche Christen...
Can you explain what these two are? I'm guessing the 2nd is the "official" German Lutheran church, but it's only a guess."

The Bekennende Kirche was founded in 1933 by Martin Niemöller as the Pastors' Emergency League and was systematically opposed to the Nazi-sponsored German Christian Church (the Reichskirche). The immediate occasion for the opposition was the attempt by the Nazis soon after their rise to power to purge the German Evangelical Church of converted Jews and to make the church subservient to the state. At the Synod of Barmen (May, 1934) the Confessing Church set up an administration and proclaimed itself the true Protestant Church in Germany. After the arrest of many of its ministers the church was forced underground. 2 famous theologians associated with the Bekennende Kirche/Confessing Church are karl Barth and Dietrich Bonhoeffer.

The nationalreligöse Bewegung Deutsche Christen (DC).
These were the true German nazi-christians (not that Hitler had much respect for them), the ones jumping at the chance to transform the Protestant churches of Germany into one Reichskirche.
They were not like the Christian Identity movement, that one has a thorough and well developed theology (a horribly wrong theology, but it fits together quite nicely).
The DC simply did not want to give up the traditions of Protestant Christianity, going to church on sunday, celebrating Easter and Christmas, baptizing the babies etc.
For them Christianity was simply part of German culture. The ideas behind the Faith were of no real significance, they desperately clinged to the forms of the Faith in the face of an ideology they liked better than their own and that was hostile to the traditions they were used to.

 

[WPutnam]

Originally posted by Singer:
Hi there Pacman,

Long time no see!

You said "Please find for me, that mysterious church that existed among the only church who can trace her history back to Christ Himself."

I ask:

How about that church mentioned in Acts 7:38 and Deut 18:15...? It existed in Moses' time and precedes the Catholic Church by a few thousand years...!

Of course the old covenant "church" (if you insist on using the term) existed before the Church Christ established, it also preceded Christ Himself! But it is now the old covenant, a fulfilled covenant, replaced by the new covenant of Christ and His gospel, and in that new covenant, He established His church.

And it is obvious to all who read my message here that this is the church I am speaking of!

So, with that in mind, can you go back and relate to my message in reference to the Christian Church as established by Christ? Go and document for me, that "mysterious church" so many people thinks existed along side that wascally ole' Catholic Church, the only church to provide proof of her existence and continuity from Christ.

Don't loose sleep over this, Pacman cuz our choice of denomination doesn't make squat with the Lord anyhow..............

I slept like a baby last night!

So if the very church Christ established in Matthew 16:18-19 "doesn't make squat" to you, then there is absolutely nothing I can do about it, except to hopefully get you to think.

I will let the holy Spirit do the rest......

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Lord, grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things that I can,
and the wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time,
enjoying one moment at a time;
accepting hardship as a pathway to peace;
taking, as Jesus did, this sinful world as it is,
not as I would have it;
trusting that you will make all things right
if I surrender to Your will;
so that I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy with You forever in the next.
Amen.

 

[BobRyan]

Mioque - one of the best sources of Catholic propaganda I have found on the web.

At least your are consistent - if hardly ever accurate.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[mioque]

Good to see you Bob!
I hope you noticed me pointing out that your church spend most of the Nazi-years sucking up to Hitler's vile regime.

 

[jimraboin]

Originally posted by GraceSaves:
And just one more thing on the matter:

History tells us that Peter was crucified upsidedown in Rome.

And yet there is scarcely a Baptist who will agree with that. You'll call it tainted Catholic history.

But pick up "Hitler's Pope" or Foxe's book of martyrs, and it's the Gospel truth; no reason to not trust these folks.

And to say that there is not evidence to the contrary would be a lie, because there are plenty of books and publications that counter both of the afforementioned topics.

You want to know why Catholic history is questioned? Who is the father of Catholic history? And between this man and his contemporaries, what percentage would their works account for Catholic historical sources?

Jim

 

[jimraboin]

Originally posted by gb93433:
Originally posted by jimraboin:

Exactly my point! All denominations have as their foundation Catholicism. And all therefore do what it does...stray from the truth.

Division comes from our loyalties to our religious groups. We were never commanded to have this. No. Rather, we were commanded to love one another no matter where we come from.

Jim

I would disagree some. Some denominations are from Satan. But the Christian ones have as their foundation Jesus Christ. Any time a denomination strays you will have those who will stay and try to correct things and others who will leave. Even in the midst of communism there were those who scattered and those who stayed.

Christian denominations have Jesus Christ as their foundation? Who says? And how do you support that assertion?

Have patients and do a good job responding because it will be very fruitful towards what I'm trying to get across.

Jim

 

[jimraboin]

Bill,

Since you have read my stuff at CARM, you should then be able to swiftly state why Catolicism is what it claims to be, thereby firmly putting me in my place.

Just give me one claim for Catholicism with effective support showing me why that claim is true and I will show you how Catholicism has stolen what God vested in Israel.

Jim

 

[mioque]

"Who is the father of Catholic history?"
Bob Ryan has been claiming for something like 2 months that that would be me.
I prefer mother of Catholic history, thank you very much.

 

[jimraboin]

Originally posted by mioque:
"Who is the father of Catholic history?"
Bob Ryan has been claiming for something like 2 months that that would be me.
I prefer mother of Catholic history, thank you very much.

So you're the one responsible. (smile)

Jim

 

[MikeS]

Originally posted by jimraboin:
Just give me one claim for Catholicism with effective support showing me why that claim is true and I will show you how Catholicism has stolen what God vested in Israel.

So even if we prove we're right, we're wrong?!

An open mind searching for truth is a beautiful thing!

 

[jimraboin]

Originally posted by MikeS:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by jimraboin:
Just give me one claim for Catholicism with effective support showing me why that claim is true and I will show you how Catholicism has stolen what God vested in Israel.

So even if we prove we're right, we're wrong?!

An open mind searching for truth is a beautiful thing!

</font>[/QUOTE]Equally so, Mike. Is your mind open to the possiblity Catholicism is not what it claims to be? I would think you would jump at the chance to defend your faith and put me in my place?

Jim

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by jimraboin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GraceSaves:
And just one more thing on the matter:

History tells us that Peter was crucified upsidedown in Rome.

And yet there is scarcely a Baptist who will agree with that. You'll call it tainted Catholic history.

But pick up "Hitler's Pope" or Foxe's book of martyrs, and it's the Gospel truth; no reason to not trust these folks.

And to say that there is not evidence to the contrary would be a lie, because there are plenty of books and publications that counter both of the afforementioned topics.

You want to know why Catholic history is questioned? Who is the father of Catholic history? And between this man and his contemporaries, what percentage would their works account for Catholic historical sources?

Jim </font>[/QUOTE]Thank you for proving my point. Catholic sources are automatically questionable, but anti-Catholic sources possess the truth. You've made up your mind, so no amount of evidence will disuade you of your position, becuase you hold to the position with or without the evidence.

 

[jimraboin]

Grace,

Not much grace in your response. So you're telling me that my sources...Israel's prophets, Jesus and his eyewitness apostles are in error?

Look. All I want is just one Catholic claim with the proof that claim is true. Can't anybody do this? Are we all so terrified at the possibility our own thinking may be found erroneous?

Grace, if you are so right, prove it! Show me my error.

Jim

 

[jimraboin]

Nobody knows a Catholic claim and has support for it?

Not surprising. Then why be Catholic if you are ashamed to defend it?

Jim

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by jimraboin:
Bill,

Since you have read my stuff at CARM, you should then be able to swiftly state why Catolicism is what it claims to be, thereby firmly putting me in my place.

Just give me one claim for Catholicism with effective support showing me why that claim is true and I will show you how Catholicism has stolen what God vested in Israel.

Jim

Statements like this could only be made in quick fix America. We don't want depth in our religion. We want it completely understandable with a one liner that packs the Church. Yet we have an infinite God who gives us a Church that we will never completely understand fully, just as we will never know him fully, for we are not infinite. Salvation is simple enough, repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins and you shall recieve the Holy Spirit. After that there is the journey, through the desert of life to the promised land, filled with complexity, trial, and temptatoins. We look at the complexity of nature and some who want to ignore it's order say there is no God, that it all happened by itself. They don't want to delve in to the mystery of nature. They want a surficial, shallow answer. As Grace Saves says, you do not have the openness that you chide him for having.

Blessings

 

[jimraboin]

Originally posted by thessalonian:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by jimraboin:
Bill,

Since you have read my stuff at CARM, you should then be able to swiftly state why Catolicism is what it claims to be, thereby firmly putting me in my place.

Just give me one claim for Catholicism with effective support showing me why that claim is true and I will show you how Catholicism has stolen what God vested in Israel.

Jim

Statements like this could only be made in quick fix America. We don't want depth in our religion. We want it completely understandable with a one liner that packs the Church. Yet we have an infinite God who gives us a Church that we will never completely understand fully, just as we will never know him fully, for we are not infinite. Salvation is simple enough, repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins and you shall recieve the Holy Spirit. After that there is the journey, through the desert of life to the promised land, filled with complexity, trial, and temptatoins. We look at the complexity of nature and some who want to ignore it's order say there is no God, that it all happened by itself. They don't want to delve in to the mystery of nature. They want a surficial, shallow answer. As Grace Saves says, you do not have the openness that you chide him for having.

Blessings </font>[/QUOTE]If we can never know, then how can you know Catholicism is what it claims to be?

Jim

 

[WPutnam]

Originally posted by jimraboin:
Bill,

Since you have read my stuff at CARM, you should then be able to swiftly state why Catolicism is what it claims to be, thereby firmly putting me in my place.

Jim,

All of the evidence in in the writings of the early church fathers, some which go back to the edge of the apostolic era, which I suspect you will disregard. their writings being as embassing "Catholic" as can be!

Those writings, plus the artifacts of the catecombs of Rome in their frescoes, tells me that the church of those times was the same church that exists today- The Catholic Church!

What other evidence would you want?

Just give me one claim for Catholicism with effective support showing me why that claim is true and I will show you how Catholicism has stolen what God vested in Israel.

Jim, Do you believe in Jesus Christ?

Do you believe that He established a church in Matthew 16:18-19?

If you agree that this church got it's "Spiritual kick-ff" at Pentecost, what other churches existed in competition at the time?

10 years later?

20 years later?

50 years later?

100 years later? (Where the title "Catholic" was first coined as her title.)

150 years later?

1000 years later?

(Do this in 1 year increments if you like just to make my point...)

And which "church" is it Jim?

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


I believe in God,
the Father Almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth;
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son,
Our Lord;
who was conceived by the holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died,
and was buried.

He descended into hell;
the third day He arose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
sitteth at the right hand of God,
the Father almighty;
from thence He shall come to judge
the living and the dead.

I believe in the holy Spirit,
the Holy Catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.

Amen.

 

[jimraboin]

Bill,

The "Jewish" Body existed at Pentecost. It wasn't Catholic in any sense. It celebrated Israel's Holy days and Sabbaths. It was considered even as a sect of Judaism.

Now does that sound like Catholicism to you?

Jim

 

[MikeS]

Originally posted by jimraboin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MikeS:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by jimraboin:
Just give me one claim for Catholicism with effective support showing me why that claim is true and I will show you how Catholicism has stolen what God vested in Israel.

So even if we prove we're right, we're wrong?!

An open mind searching for truth is a beautiful thing!

</font>[/QUOTE]Equally so, Mike. Is your mind open to the possiblity Catholicism is not what it claims to be? I would think you would jump at the chance to defend your faith and put me in my place?

Jim </font>[/QUOTE]No, I'm not interested in "putting you in your place." What a strange idea! And you clearly are not interested in learning anything about the Catholic Church. So you keep talking about Nazis and plunder and stealing and whatever, and I'll keep not answering your questions that aren't really questions at all.

 

[MikeS]

Originally posted by jimraboin:
Nobody knows a Catholic claim and has support for it?

Not surprising. Then why be Catholic if you are ashamed to defend it?

Jim

Looks like you can have your little victory march around the kitchen now, o mighty slayer of the Catholic Church.