Justified Saint
New Member
Hate can certainly breed ignorance or vice versa.
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Jewish? Sure, as all of the apostles were Jews, Jesus was a Jew as well as His mother was a Jew, and certainly the very early body of Christians then were Jewish, but now Christians.
Now, what evidence do you have that they celebrated all of the Jewish holy days and kept the Jewish sabbath? Scholars presume some of this, I suspect, but at some point, they disengaged from the synagogues, formed bodies within their own enclosures (homes and available buildings) and eventually, to distinguish themselves from Judiasm itself, began to celebrate the "Lord's Day" on Sunday. But we have zilch documentation on this, so far as I know. We have no exact date or documentation as to when Christians did this.
All we have, Jim, is what artifacts in writings by the early church fathers and in Ancient architecture and other physical artifacts.
And in your mind, that evidence is..........?
What, Jim?
God bless,
PAX
Bill+†+
Christus Vincit! Christus Regnat! Christus Imperat!
Jim, I was first to respond to you, but you have not responded to me, but to everybody else. I feel left out. Remember this - YOU brought up the questions, then YOU answered them, then YOU rebutted your first answers.
So then, I have asked YOU to prove your rebuttal, which I will quote:
I can't believe you have backed away from this, as you seem quite the zealot.
So then, I have asked YOU to prove your rebuttal, which I will quote:
To which I replied...
Please prove this and we can get on with it.
I can't believe you have backed away from this, as you seem quite the zealot.
The same is true about Catholics. It was evidenced clearly when this was discussed before. Carson had one Jewish leader saying the Catholic church clearly helped the Jews, I had others who said they did not. Who do you believe, of course the one that sides with you.
What no one has yet to address is the quote from the Council of Basel.
Hitler had Jews living in Ghettos...so did the Catholics at one time.
Hitler made Jews wear an identifying mark, so did catholics.
Severe pentalty for not wearing a mark??? This is Christian behavior????
What Hitler did was no different than what the Crusaders did in their day.
Baptists do NOT claim that they are the "one true church" through which man can find salvation and they do NOT claim that their history testifies to that fact.
Turning the argument around to Baptists or whatever faith you want, does NOT excuse the behavior of your church. These are merely a small sampling of the anti-semitism that was alive and well in the catholic church.
Believe if you want that God protected your church while it was in the hands of men who tortured and killed anyone that did not convert to their faith. The Bible NEVER speaks of or condones such behavior. The apostles were men filled with the Holy Spirit and produced fruits PROVING that to be true. If the fruit isn't there, neither is the Spirit. The fruits reveal the truth, you just wish to be ignorant of what the truth really is. I for one am not so willing to let people forget it.
So, anyone willing to explain why the Council of Basel (and others) not only allowed but COMMANDED anti-semetic behavior? Anyone at all?
~Lorelei
Lorelei
"Baptists do NOT claim that they are the "one true church" through which man can find salvation and they do NOT claim that their history testifies to that fact. "
We 2 don't , I think we can dig up some fellow baptist on this board who actually believe something very similar to what you said. The Landmark baptists.
"What Hitler did was no different than what the Crusaders did in their day."
Hitler was a bit more systematic about it (not to mention working on a larger scale), but yes. pretty much.
"So, anyone willing to explain why the Council of Basel (and others) not only allowed but COMMANDED anti-semetic behavior? Anyone at all?"
sure. Anti-Semitism in those days was a Christian distinctive. In fact between the dawn of Christianity and 1945 there have only been 4 movements within christianity that weren't Anti-Semitic. Doesn't make it right, it simply makes it normal.
1. The earliest Christians who were mostly both Jew and Christian, by the time some of the later books of the New Testament are being written this state of affairs was already collapsing.
2. The early Scholastic movement of the High Middle Ages (Anselmus of Canterbury and Abelard for example). This after 1000 years of uniform Anti-Semitism.
3. The Puritans, influenced by a renewed interest in the Old Testament and those types mentioned under 2.
4. That part of the 19th century revivalmovement, that was influenced by dispensationalism.
(5.) Some extremely liberal Christian denominations also start letting go of Anti-Semitism in the 19th century, at the same time they start letting go of all other Christian distinctives.
"Baptists do NOT claim that they are the "one true church" through which man can find salvation and they do NOT claim that their history testifies to that fact. "
We 2 don't , I think we can dig up some fellow baptist on this board who actually believe something very similar to what you said. The Landmark baptists.
"What Hitler did was no different than what the Crusaders did in their day."
Hitler was a bit more systematic about it (not to mention working on a larger scale), but yes. pretty much.
"So, anyone willing to explain why the Council of Basel (and others) not only allowed but COMMANDED anti-semetic behavior? Anyone at all?"
sure. Anti-Semitism in those days was a Christian distinctive. In fact between the dawn of Christianity and 1945 there have only been 4 movements within christianity that weren't Anti-Semitic. Doesn't make it right, it simply makes it normal.
1. The earliest Christians who were mostly both Jew and Christian, by the time some of the later books of the New Testament are being written this state of affairs was already collapsing.
2. The early Scholastic movement of the High Middle Ages (Anselmus of Canterbury and Abelard for example). This after 1000 years of uniform Anti-Semitism.
3. The Puritans, influenced by a renewed interest in the Old Testament and those types mentioned under 2.
4. That part of the 19th century revivalmovement, that was influenced by dispensationalism.
(5.) Some extremely liberal Christian denominations also start letting go of Anti-Semitism in the 19th century, at the same time they start letting go of all other Christian distinctives.
J
jimraboin
Guest
To which I replied...
</font>[/QUOTE]The See of Rome was invented by Eusebius and Constantine. And all Catholic history comes from Eusebius or one of his contemporaries. Search it out. You will find this fact quite true.
Jim
thessalonian
New Member
"The See of Rome was invented by Eusebius and Constantine. And all Catholic history comes from Eusebius or one of his contemporaries. Search it out. You will find this fact quite true."
Well, that's proof enough for me. Jimbo must be right since he says it. Close down this part of the message board. No need to debate anymore
Problem is I have read Irenaus, Ignatius, Justin Martyr, PolyCarp, Dionsius, Acts of the 12 Apostles, Clement of Rome, etc. etc. All before Eusebius (whom I have also read). Kind a makes a liar out of ya Jimbo. Apostolic Succession, Bishops, baptismal regeneration, real prescence, baptism of infants, the papacy, sacrifice of the Mass, etc. etc. It's all there, before Eusebius by quite a bit. I do find it interesting the many theories of when Catholicism started and who started it. Some say constantine, now Eusebius, others Ignatius of Antioch, still others that everything was ducky until the 2nd council of Nicea or something like that. Some still say that it all held together until the 11th century or so. All theories fail. The very fact that there were antipopes in Rome in the mid third century while there were only a few anti-bishops anywhere else provides evidence enough for Catholicisms start before Constantine and Eusebius. But none of you (except miqy) have the guts to face the truth because it causes you to face truth. Take the plunge, it will free your from theological slavery of Protestantism.
I feel much more free within the constraints of Catholicism with regard to scriptural understanding and interprutatoin than I know any of you are. Oral Tradition is to interprutive freedom as the 10 commandments and grace are to freedom from the slavery of sin. 
Blessings
Well, that's proof enough for me. Jimbo must be right since he says it. Close down this part of the message board. No need to debate anymore
Blessings
thessalonian
New Member
"If we can never know, then how can you know Catholicism is what it claims to be?"
That's not what I said. We can know partially as the scripture says in this life. Not knowing all is not not knowing. If one knows that a ball is red and rubber, he knows. Yet he may not have the education and understanding to know of the molecular makeup, color in relation to the color spectrum, and elastic properties of the ball. But of course in the case of God's truth, it requires that it be revealed by God as Jesus told Peter in Matt 16:15-19.
Blessings
That's not what I said. We can know partially as the scripture says in this life. Not knowing all is not not knowing. If one knows that a ball is red and rubber, he knows. Yet he may not have the education and understanding to know of the molecular makeup, color in relation to the color spectrum, and elastic properties of the ball. But of course in the case of God's truth, it requires that it be revealed by God as Jesus told Peter in Matt 16:15-19.
Blessings
L
LaRae
Guest
He's been asked 'ad nausem' to provide proof of his claims on CARM...and tap dances his way out of it by trying to get the person asking him to back up his words, to provide proof about the Church....he seems to think he is under no obligation to support his claims.Originally posted by thessalonian:
"The See of Rome was invented by Eusebius and Constantine. And all Catholic history comes from Eusebius or one of his contemporaries. Search it out. You will find this fact quite true."
Well, that's proof enough for me. Jimbo must be right since he says it. Close down this part of the message board. No need to debate anymoreProblem is I have read Irenaus, Ignatius, Justin Martyr, PolyCarp, Dionsius, Acts of the 12 Apostles, Clement of Rome, etc. etc. All before Eusebius (whom I have also read). Kind a makes a liar out of ya Jimbo. Apostolic Succession, Bishops, baptismal regeneration, real prescence, baptism of infants, the papacy, sacrifice of the Mass, etc. etc. It's all there, before Eusebius by quite a bit. I do find it interesting the many theories of when Catholicism started and who started it. Some say constantine, now Eusebius, others Ignatius of Antioch, still others that everything was ducky until the 2nd council of Nicea or something like that. Some still say that it all held together until the 11th century or so. All theories fail. The very fact that there were antipopes in Rome in the mid third century while there were only a few anti-bishops anywhere else provides evidence enough for Catholicisms start before Constantine and Eusebius. But none of you (except miqy) have the guts to face the truth because it causes you to face truth. Take the plunge, it will free your from theological slavery of Protestantism.I feel much more free within the constraints of Catholicism with regard to scriptural understanding and interprutatoin than I know any of you are. Oral Tradition is to interprutive freedom as the 10 commandments and grace are to freedom from the slavery of sin.
Blessings
LaRae
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
CARM is the worst board I have found on the web claiming to be Christian in any form.
Those who manage it practice atrocious standards of poor conduct - low even by non-Christian board standards.
I have been posting on various boards for quite a while - that one is the "fly in the ointment". It is the "one bad apple" that gives all the others a bad name.
Thank God that there are a lot of normal "Christian" message boards out there like this one - to counter that CARM the board dedicated to doing Christianity "Harm".
In Christ,
Bob
Those who manage it practice atrocious standards of poor conduct - low even by non-Christian board standards.
I have been posting on various boards for quite a while - that one is the "fly in the ointment". It is the "one bad apple" that gives all the others a bad name.
Thank God that there are a lot of normal "Christian" message boards out there like this one - to counter that CARM the board dedicated to doing Christianity "Harm".
In Christ,
Bob
L
LaRae
Guest
Yes it does tend to be fairly 'unfriendly' to those who aren't 'mainstream' ...those who Matt determines aren't that is.
There are some good people on there though....I take breaks from that forum, when it gets too bad.
LaRae
Well, I must disagree with you here, as I have met some of the nicest people there!
Especially "TP"!!!!!!!!
I wish I could get him here on BaptistBoard, a real Catholic priest!
God bless,
PAX
Bill+†+
Rome has spoken, case is closed.
Derived from Augustine's famous Sermon.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
If he is a Catholic priest then he can not possibly be a board monitor at CARM.
I have met many nice people at CARM trying to post - reasonable Christian messages - some are succesful and others get abused by the board monitors there.
The sponsors and monitors at Carm are dedicated to trashing the various Christian groups that they dedicate threads to. Which is fine with me - no problem with them being willing to put their cards on the table.
But they have a policy on "top of that agenda" that also implements unchristian practices to delete, misrepresent and villify board members if they are a bit too successful in making a given point since that defeats the overal purpose of the board.
I wish all the members of CARM would come here instead. I wish a few of their board monitors had the integrity to come to place like this "out in the open" as well.
In Christ,
Bob
I have met many nice people at CARM trying to post - reasonable Christian messages - some are succesful and others get abused by the board monitors there.
The sponsors and monitors at Carm are dedicated to trashing the various Christian groups that they dedicate threads to. Which is fine with me - no problem with them being willing to put their cards on the table.
But they have a policy on "top of that agenda" that also implements unchristian practices to delete, misrepresent and villify board members if they are a bit too successful in making a given point since that defeats the overal purpose of the board.
I wish all the members of CARM would come here instead. I wish a few of their board monitors had the integrity to come to place like this "out in the open" as well.
In Christ,
Bob
L
LaRae
Guest
He's (TP) not a board moniter...Catholics are not allowed to be one....although Lutherans are.
There are a few CARM posters here...and on Steve Ray's forum as well...in fact there's at least one non-Catholic who has left CARM and now posts on Ray's forum. They got tired of the things that went on.
LaRae
L
LaRae
Guest
Well, I must disagree with you here, as I have met some of the nicest people there!
Especially "TP"!!!!!!!!
I wish I could get him here on BaptistBoard, a real Catholic priest!
God bless,
PAX
Bill+†+
Rome has spoken, case is closed.
Derived from Augustine's famous Sermon. </font>[/QUOTE]Bill I'm pretty sure I have seen TP post here a couple times....
LaRae
I neve said he was!
He is a participator on CARM like me!
DianeS in one of the principle monitors there, and she and I have gotten "into it," but I must say, she is honest and fair.
I give her a lot of credit...
Er, ah, having seen Matt Slick, who is the owner of the forum, for several years, I don't agree with you. Because they may not agree with the doctrines of your particular denomination, is not "trashing," sir. And mind you, they are quite heavy against Catholicism, let me tell you...
Well, I have not seen any of that, and I sincerely hope you are wrong here. And I have been on CARM for a number of years now.
Are you sure of that? Having them here would paralize this forum! One minute after you post a message in CARM, it can be on the second or third page in a flash, that is how fast people post there!
God bless,
PAX
Bill+†+
Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)
Well, I must disagree with you here, as I have met some of the nicest people there!
Especially "TP"!!!!!!!!
I wish I could get him here on BaptistBoard, a real Catholic priest!
God bless,
PAX
Bill+†+
Rome has spoken, case is closed.
Derived from Augustine's famous Sermon. </font>[/QUOTE]Bill I'm pretty sure I have seen TP post here a couple times....</font>[/QUOTE]Father Tom is a very gentle and kindly man, whose messages in CARM are pure gold, in my opinion.
But being a priest, I am sure he does not have all the time in the world to be posting, as I have, being fully retired.
God bless,
PAX
Bill+†+
Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)
L
LaRae
Guest
Bob did you not see my post about this? It's on the previous page.
LaRae