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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
LaRae -
I saw your post and that is what set me off. (See my post following yours on the previous page.)
I understand what you are saying completely - I would expect them to do that on the Catholic thread just like they are doing it to all the other groups.
My own testimony.
When I first went over there "I was posting" on the Catholic thread and having a good ol' time "exchanging views" as it were and exposing what I see as errors in the Catholic doctrines.
Then after a while I began branching into other threads - including the one on my own church. So I was posting all over the place and things were great!
But when the monitors started to run through their list of "dirty tricks" for things posted in favor of a Christian group thread - I started paying more attention to the "board's stated mission" and and a direct exchange with the Board manager as to what they were "really doing".
I realized that my posting on the Catholic thread was just "helping CARM" in its mission to "do HARM" and so I stopped posting on the Catholic thread and just tried to work things out on the Adventist thread. But the list of "dirty tricks" they use was beyond anything I had seen any board managers using so eventually it just fell apart.
In the end - I was very glad to stick with "normal Christian boards" like this one.
And as you can tell by my posts - I have no problem at all posting in a context where others differ with my view. But to have the "dirty tricks squad" running the board
- that was "off the charts" for any board I have ever seen.
In Christ,
Bob
I saw your post and that is what set me off. (See my post following yours on the previous page.)
I understand what you are saying completely - I would expect them to do that on the Catholic thread just like they are doing it to all the other groups.
My own testimony.
When I first went over there "I was posting" on the Catholic thread and having a good ol' time "exchanging views" as it were and exposing what I see as errors in the Catholic doctrines.
Then after a while I began branching into other threads - including the one on my own church. So I was posting all over the place and things were great!
But when the monitors started to run through their list of "dirty tricks" for things posted in favor of a Christian group thread - I started paying more attention to the "board's stated mission" and and a direct exchange with the Board manager as to what they were "really doing".
I realized that my posting on the Catholic thread was just "helping CARM" in its mission to "do HARM" and so I stopped posting on the Catholic thread and just tried to work things out on the Adventist thread. But the list of "dirty tricks" they use was beyond anything I had seen any board managers using so eventually it just fell apart.
In the end - I was very glad to stick with "normal Christian boards" like this one.
And as you can tell by my posts - I have no problem at all posting in a context where others differ with my view. But to have the "dirty tricks squad" running the board
- that was "off the charts" for any board I have ever seen.In Christ,
Bob
Carson Weber
<img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">
I was once a CARMelite, back in the day.
Jim said:
However, (yawn)...I am willing go look. Tell me where to search this accusation out. It is a ludicrous statement from a scholarly standpoint. There are thousands of patristics works, etc. Tell me what you are talking about if you are indeed serious. Otherwise, why start the thread?
You are tiring me. I can see you are not able to prove your assertion. I didn't think I would get anything from you on this. Remember, you made the statement first.
However, (yawn)...I am willing go look. Tell me where to search this accusation out. It is a ludicrous statement from a scholarly standpoint. There are thousands of patristics works, etc. Tell me what you are talking about if you are indeed serious. Otherwise, why start the thread?
You are tiring me. I can see you are not able to prove your assertion. I didn't think I would get anything from you on this. Remember, you made the statement first.
However, (yawn)...I am willing go look. Tell me where to search this accusation out. It is a ludicrous statement from a scholarly standpoint. There are thousands of patristics works, etc. Tell me what you are talking about if you are indeed serious. Otherwise, why start the thread? </font>[/QUOTE]I wonder if Jim will avoid you, as he obviously avoided me?
Methinks he has bitten off more then he can chew...
God Bless,
PAX
Bill+†+
Rome has spoken, case is closed.
Derived from Augustine's famous Sermon.
Bill Said :
Well here is the deal. I am not an exhaustive reference of patristic materials for certain. I am very cursory at best. But...but...I have read. And not just from books on history, but the texts. And what this guy is claiming about Eusibeus and Constantine, I just have to to see. Because you know what? He is scared to post what he has because he is what we call the classic counter-puncher.
The one thing these guys have learned doing anti-catholic apologetics, is that it is a LOT easier to attack than to defend. So when I tell him to prove his own statemnet, which should be easy enough right?, he refuses, but rather waits for me to offer him something to attack.
I'll bet he is not willing to lay his dirty pearls before toy poodles. Much less swine. Perhaps DHK could assist him in proving that Eusebius invented all the Catholic stuff. He has always been a real load of accurate statements on history. But I will settle for just the connection of Roman pre-eminence.
Hello by the way brother! You have some very nice posts. Good to see I am not out here floating on the raft alone. Someone has been trying to poke holes in my raft.
Well here is the deal. I am not an exhaustive reference of patristic materials for certain. I am very cursory at best. But...but...I have read. And not just from books on history, but the texts. And what this guy is claiming about Eusibeus and Constantine, I just have to to see. Because you know what? He is scared to post what he has because he is what we call the classic counter-puncher.
The one thing these guys have learned doing anti-catholic apologetics, is that it is a LOT easier to attack than to defend. So when I tell him to prove his own statemnet, which should be easy enough right?, he refuses, but rather waits for me to offer him something to attack.
I'll bet he is not willing to lay his dirty pearls before toy poodles. Much less swine. Perhaps DHK could assist him in proving that Eusebius invented all the Catholic stuff. He has always been a real load of accurate statements on history. But I will settle for just the connection of Roman pre-eminence.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
quote:
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The sponsors and monitors at Carm are dedicated to trashing the various Christian groups that they dedicate threads to. Which is fine with me - no problem with them being willing to put their cards on the table.
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Wputman said
AS I already posted here in regards to CARM - having board monitors that have another doctrinal view than mine - is no problem at all. In many ways I "prefer it".
The problem is the "dirty tricks tactics" they employ.
Perhaps we could compar Matt Slick emails someday.
In any case - as already stated - that board has a dark side - and it is all in the monitors.
They also have a lot of good Christians trying to post there - and as on this board - those Christians do not agree on everything and really enjoy drilling down to exactly what the root of difference is on a given doctrine.
"Obviously" anyone reading the threads where I have posted - knows I enjoy that format.
In Christ,
Bob
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The sponsors and monitors at Carm are dedicated to trashing the various Christian groups that they dedicate threads to. Which is fine with me - no problem with them being willing to put their cards on the table.
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Wputman said
Indeed they are. But that is not the point. As one can easily "see" on this - I am more than happy to post enthusiastically in an environment where "somebody" is not in full agreement with me...
AS I already posted here in regards to CARM - having board monitors that have another doctrinal view than mine - is no problem at all. In many ways I "prefer it".
The problem is the "dirty tricks tactics" they employ.
Perhaps we could compar Matt Slick emails someday.
In any case - as already stated - that board has a dark side - and it is all in the monitors.
They also have a lot of good Christians trying to post there - and as on this board - those Christians do not agree on everything and really enjoy drilling down to exactly what the root of difference is on a given doctrine.
"Obviously" anyone reading the threads where I have posted - knows I enjoy that format.
In Christ,
Bob
Hello by the way brother! You have some very nice posts. Good to see I am not out here floating on the raft alone. Someone has been trying to poke holes in my raft.
</font>[/QUOTE]I have been defending the Catholic Faith for about 20 years now, even before Al Gore "invented" the internet. But I still find something to learn, the older I get. First of all, go to and bookmark the following web site:
http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/contents.htm
This is Joe Gallego's web site, probably one of the best patristic experts in the country!
I often link to appropriate subjects the fathers wrote about, to the embarssment of my non-
Catholic advisaries who think Constintine started the Catholic Church!
I agree, and again, the writings of the early fathers, those who came before Constantine was born, bore the marks of Catholicism from the git go in church history.
Also, I suggest you purchase for yourself, the following:
THE FAITH OF THE EARLY FATHERS
by William A. Jurgens, which comes in 3 volumes.
It is in paperback and I estimate the cost to about $37.00 from Amazon.com or other appropriate outlet.
That, the the link I give above will give you a great start on the early church fathers. And reference to them will put the lie to rest that Constantine is the founder of the Catholic Church. That whole cloth construction is totally refuted by simply referencing the early fathers.
Charles, there are many times I have posted a reply in this and other conferences that goes unanswered. Why, because they can no longer reply to my message. And no, I am not a smart guy, but I have the advantage of having church history to back me up.
And I am not a bible scholar either, but I know enouth about the bible to defend Catholic doctrine and faith positions to the same result - silence on the other side all too often.
Also watch out for the postings of Carson. He is a grad student at Franciscan University at Stubbenville, Ohio, and sits at the feet of one professor Scott Hahn!
How lucky can a guy get?!!!
Charlie, keep it up! Get that link and the books I recommend and you will be on your way to producing messages others will not be able to refute. And judging from the lack of response to your messages here, you are well on your way!
God bless,
PAX
Bill+†+
I believe in God,
the Father Almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth;
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son,
Our Lord;
who was conceived by the holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died,
and was buried.
He descended into hell;
the third day He arose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
sitteth at the right hand of God,
the Father almighty;
from thence He shall come to judge
the living and the dead.
I believe in the holy Spirit,
the Holy Catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.
Amen.
Ode to the Paxman (Bill Putnam)
_________________________________________
Bob and Jim please be aware
That Billy's got a wild hair
He thinks when he is up to bat
He cannot loose a single spat
For "God is on my side you see"
"As Peter got the sacred key"
"To loose and bind and pardon sins"
"Hail Mary, let this Catholic in"
He says the church was here but first
So all you Anti's go and thirst
For favor comes by Holy See
And not that Jesus Bled for thee
But don't you tell him brother Bob
That Mary's pope can't do the job
He'll find this out when life is spent
And then he'll know what Jesus meant
Those words he spoke "Whoever Will"
He came to pay the lasting bill
Of sins we did and will commit
There is no other...he'll admit.
It matters not whose church was first
For we will be a people cursed
If we are found without the right
To enter in the Saviour's light
It's such a simple task at hand
To "Believe in Me" and take a stand
We're not compelled to make a search
That ends up on that Catholic Perch !!
Singer
_________________________________________
Bob and Jim please be aware
That Billy's got a wild hair
He thinks when he is up to bat
He cannot loose a single spat
For "God is on my side you see"
"As Peter got the sacred key"
"To loose and bind and pardon sins"
"Hail Mary, let this Catholic in"
He says the church was here but first
So all you Anti's go and thirst
For favor comes by Holy See
And not that Jesus Bled for thee
But don't you tell him brother Bob
That Mary's pope can't do the job
He'll find this out when life is spent
And then he'll know what Jesus meant
Those words he spoke "Whoever Will"
He came to pay the lasting bill
Of sins we did and will commit
There is no other...he'll admit.
It matters not whose church was first
For we will be a people cursed
If we are found without the right
To enter in the Saviour's light
It's such a simple task at hand
To "Believe in Me" and take a stand
We're not compelled to make a search
That ends up on that Catholic Perch !!
Singer
GraceSaves
New Member
Wow, great poem! And you only had to lie a few times to make it all work. Could you quote him where he said anything like that?
No, you can't. But you're just having fun, right?
One day you'll realize that things are not always either/or but can be both/and.
Cool Singer. Nice way to spend your extra time. Keep up the faith brother! You go boy! Go get 'em!
Bill said
Bill said
Thanks Bill! I actually have the Jurgens set. I also have the entire 10 volume set of the Ante Nicean Fathers (my first purchase). I bought all these about 14 years ago, starting my study of the fathers and frankly, just to find out what happened after Acts 28. Thats it. No more, no less.
I have seen this kind of thing. All of my old posts are long gone it appears, but I get the same things when I get to brass tacks. I was just a poor Protestant looking for historical evidence. I found some, and am willing to look at others, but I get knee jerk responses most of the time. I have some Anglican friends, who can make some very very nice arguments against Rome. I have seen nothing here to compete even remotely close to what these fellows have to say. Most people have no point of reference to make a valid argument.
(Grace)
"No, you can't. But you're just having fun, right? "
(Singer)
Right; I'm just rattling your chain a little as it was getting boring on here........seems like no one could tell me the name of the church in the wilderness nor could they explain how the billion member Catholic Church received the Holy Spirit when the bible plainly says it is given on an individual basis by ASKING for it. Sheesh..I think I've got that ole BillSyndrome where no one will answer me anymore
(Grace)
One day you'll realize that things are not always either/or but can be both/and.
(Singer)
You mean like there can be both/and Catholics/Protestants in heaven and not just either/or ...?
Actually I've always said and believed that Catholics can make it to heaven also in spite of their misgivings because it's whosoever has the Son HAS LIFE; not whosoever belongs to the Church that Jesus Established has life.
But of course He didn't establish one so you're just rattling MY chain now.......right ?
"No, you can't. But you're just having fun, right? "
(Singer)
Right; I'm just rattling your chain a little as it was getting boring on here........seems like no one could tell me the name of the church in the wilderness nor could they explain how the billion member Catholic Church received the Holy Spirit when the bible plainly says it is given on an individual basis by ASKING for it. Sheesh..I think I've got that ole BillSyndrome where no one will answer me anymore
(Grace)
One day you'll realize that things are not always either/or but can be both/and.
(Singer)
You mean like there can be both/and Catholics/Protestants in heaven and not just either/or ...?
Actually I've always said and believed that Catholics can make it to heaven also in spite of their misgivings because it's whosoever has the Son HAS LIFE; not whosoever belongs to the Church that Jesus Established has life.
But of course He didn't establish one so you're just rattling MY chain now.......right ?
(Charles)
I was just a poor Protestant looking for historical evidence. I found some, and am willing to look at others, but I get knee jerk responses most of the time. I have some Anglican friends, who can make some very very nice arguments
against Rome. I have seen nothing here to compete even remotely close to what these fellows have to say. Most people have no point of reference to make a valid argument.
(Singer)
Not even remotely Close !!! Now THAT really tears me up,Charles. Actually I've got a file entitled "Catholic Stumpers" and I'm always looking for new material. I'm sure you'll tell us how to get in contact with your Anglican friends so they can advance my findings.....??
Oh, BTW, I've always wondered how there could be any merit in relying on historical evidence of the churches. When I came to a knowing grace, I didn't once consider who was first in the lineage of worshippers back in Paul's time. I simply heard the Master's call and opened the door to let Him in (John 3:16).
Course I'm a simple person and didn't realize that I had to read 37 volumes of Ro-maniac Historica Cathoholic-a , pray to the dead, repeat a written prayer 40 times, count beads, confess my sins to my neighbor's brother-in-law, understand Aramic, Greek and Hebrew, and eat fish on Fridays to ever make it to heaven. (Or did the fish thing get voted out recently) ?
I might ask, Charles, why you and others are concerned about digging up evidence of who was first in the historical kingdom of God when the bible says that he who will be first....will be last.
Same kinda thing for "he who will be the greatest".
I'd still like to know how/why God gave his Holy Spirit to THE CHURCH. All this time I thought it was to those who ask for it.
Luke 11:13
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall
[your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Help me out here, but are Catholics favored by some rule whereas non-Catholics aren't. Am I not supposed to be capable to receive the H.S. because I have not alligned myself with a certain fellowship? And, would the signing of my name in a different membership book down on Elm Street enhance my chances of salvation?
Philippians 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling
Therefore, neither salvation nor the Holy Spirit comes enmasse according to whether we belong to the oldest institution in history.....but rather on an individual basis.
Maybe you and Bill can find the answers in those historical archives and let me know so I don't continue in the BillSyndrome I've got.
Thanks
I was just a poor Protestant looking for historical evidence. I found some, and am willing to look at others, but I get knee jerk responses most of the time. I have some Anglican friends, who can make some very very nice arguments
against Rome. I have seen nothing here to compete even remotely close to what these fellows have to say. Most people have no point of reference to make a valid argument.
(Singer)
Not even remotely Close !!! Now THAT really tears me up,Charles. Actually I've got a file entitled "Catholic Stumpers" and I'm always looking for new material. I'm sure you'll tell us how to get in contact with your Anglican friends so they can advance my findings.....??
Oh, BTW, I've always wondered how there could be any merit in relying on historical evidence of the churches. When I came to a knowing grace, I didn't once consider who was first in the lineage of worshippers back in Paul's time. I simply heard the Master's call and opened the door to let Him in (John 3:16).
Course I'm a simple person and didn't realize that I had to read 37 volumes of Ro-maniac Historica Cathoholic-a , pray to the dead, repeat a written prayer 40 times, count beads, confess my sins to my neighbor's brother-in-law, understand Aramic, Greek and Hebrew, and eat fish on Fridays to ever make it to heaven. (Or did the fish thing get voted out recently) ?
I might ask, Charles, why you and others are concerned about digging up evidence of who was first in the historical kingdom of God when the bible says that he who will be first....will be last.
Same kinda thing for "he who will be the greatest".
I'd still like to know how/why God gave his Holy Spirit to THE CHURCH. All this time I thought it was to those who ask for it.
Luke 11:13
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall
[your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Help me out here, but are Catholics favored by some rule whereas non-Catholics aren't. Am I not supposed to be capable to receive the H.S. because I have not alligned myself with a certain fellowship? And, would the signing of my name in a different membership book down on Elm Street enhance my chances of salvation?
Philippians 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling
Therefore, neither salvation nor the Holy Spirit comes enmasse according to whether we belong to the oldest institution in history.....but rather on an individual basis.
Maybe you and Bill can find the answers in those historical archives and let me know so I don't continue in the BillSyndrome I've got.
Thanks
Singer said
If you have good stuff, then why horde it?
With your mocking attitude, I would not unleash your kind on my close friends. What, are you gonna' write poems about them too? I'll be happy to take your abuse. Go study Anglicans for a while. You will find the things you desire regarding Rome, but it will not be Evangelical in nature. You'll have problems immediately comprehending their base premises.
Chill Singer. I am not trying to insult you. However, truth never hurt me. Send me your file of stumpers. cldavis33@yahoo.com
If you have good stuff, then why horde it?
With your mocking attitude, I would not unleash your kind on my close friends. What, are you gonna' write poems about them too? I'll be happy to take your abuse. Go study Anglicans for a while. You will find the things you desire regarding Rome, but it will not be Evangelical in nature. You'll have problems immediately comprehending their base premises.
Thanks Bill! I actually have the Jurgens set. I also have the entire 10 volume set of the Ante Nicean Fathers (my first purchase). I bought all these about 14 years ago, starting my study of the fathers and frankly, just to find out what happened after Acts 28. Thats it. No more, no less.
I have seen this kind of thing. All of my old posts are long gone it appears, but I get the same things when I get to brass tacks. I was just a poor Protestant looking for historical evidence. I found some, and am willing to look at others, but I get knee jerk responses most of the time. I have some Anglican friends, who can make some very very nice arguments against Rome. I have seen nothing here to compete even remotely close to what these fellows have to say. Most people have no point of reference to make a valid argument. </font>[/QUOTE]Good for you!
Also, when it ever happens that Singer composes a "sea chanty" or similar verse to you, you will know you have arrived!
Keep up the good work, Charles!
God bless,
PAX
Bill+†+
Rome has spoken, case is closed.
Derived from Augustine's famous Sermon.