Catholic or Christian

[webdog]

It's OK for God to hate, yes, but is it OK with God for you to spew so much hatred at Catholic people?

Likewise, is it ok to spew so much hatred for your fellow BB members? Calling someone who sees the RCC for what it really is a "bigot" is showing love?

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

Oh good. It's the bi-annual "Bash the Catholic" post. Please remember to bring out your favorite lines --

"The pope is the head of the church and is the anti-Christ. No questions, here. We KNOW he is - it says so right there in Revelation."
"Catholics cannot be Christians."
"Christians cannot be Catholic."
"OK, some (read very, very few) Catholics can be Christians, but in spite of the church not because of it."
"If you are a true Christian, you will leave the Catholic church. Otherwise, you are not a true Christian."



After we finish, can we do the Lutherans next??

 

[tragic_pizza]

The pope is called the "vicar of Christ" is he not? That means "substitute for Christ", hardly making Christ the head of the RCC.

vic·ar

1.Church of England. a.a person acting as priest of a parish in place of the rector, or as representative of a religious community to which tithes belong. b.the priest of a parish the tithes of which are impropriated and who receives only the smaller tithes or a salary. 2.Protestant Episcopal Church. a.a member of the clergy whose sole or chief charge is a chapel dependent on the church of a parish. b.a bishop's assistant in charge of a church or mission. 3.Roman Catholic Church. an ecclesiastic representing the pope or a bishop. 4.a person who acts in place of another; substitute. 5.a person who is authorized to perform the functions of another; deputy: God's vicar on earth.

The word, taken in its context, means simply that the Pope is Christ's deputy on Earth; an "Ambassador for Christ" may be another way to put it.

This, of course, makes the Pope just like every other Christian in that respect.

 

[tragic_pizza]

Likewise, is it ok to spew so much hatred for your fellow BB members? Calling someone who sees the RCC for what it really is a "bigot" is showing love?

He (and you) most decidedly do not see the Catholic church for what it really is.

 

[Rufus_1611]

Of course, reformed theology is much broader than agreeing with quote from Calvin and Luther. But thanks for trying.

Were they not integral men in the reformation. Who should I quote?

I've been reformed and I've not yet met one who declares themselves to be reformed to not understand what was so clear to Calvin and Luther and Knox and Newton and others such as...Spurgeon. May I quote him Friend?

“It is the bounden duty of every Christian to pray against Antichrist, and as to what Antichrist is no sane man ought to raise a question. If it be not the Popery in the Church of Rome there is nothing in the world that can be called by that name. It wounds Christ, robs Christ of His glory, puts sacramental efficacy in the place of His atonement, and lifts a piece of bread in the place of the Saviour…if we pray against it, because it is against Him, we shall love the persons though we hate their errors; we shall love their souls, though we loathe and detest their dogmas…” - CH Spurgeon​

This effeminate version of reformationism is unique to me, so I will look forward to you and the Tragic one explaining to me why the pope is prochrist and all of our Christian leaders from time past were wrong.

 

[webdog]

The word, taken in its context, means simply that the Pope is Christ's deputy on Earth; an "Ambassador for Christ" may be another way to put it.

This, of course, makes the Pope just like every other Christian in that respect.

4.a person who acts in place of another; substitute. 5.a person who is authorized to perform the functions of another; deputy: God's vicar on earth.

This is garbage. Christ said Himself HE is the only mediator between God and man. He needs no "deputy on earth". Who "authorized" him to be the substitute for Christ? Not Christ!

If he is just like any other Christian, why does he worship and pray to Mary? Why are his words so powerful within the RCC? Who else do you call "holy father"?

 

[Rufus_1611]

Oh good. It's the bi-annual "Bash the Catholic" post. Please remember to bring out your favorite lines --

"The pope is the head of the church and is the anti-Christ. No questions, here. We KNOW he is - it says so right there in Revelation."
"Catholics cannot be Christians."
"Christians cannot be Catholic."
"OK, some (read very, very few) Catholics can be Christians, but in spite of the church not because of it."
"If you are a true Christian, you will leave the Catholic church. Otherwise, you are not a true Christian."
After we finish, can we do the Lutherans next??

I wasn't looking to bash anyone. This thread wouldn't have existed accept some of my "protestant" and "baptist" brothers bashed me for saying Catholicism isn't Christian. I thought this issue was self-evident amongst Baptists and "Protestants" but it looks like it is not as evident to some as it was to your friend.

 

[tragic_pizza]

4.a person who acts in place of another; substitute. 5.a person who is authorized to perform the functions of another; deputy: God's vicar on earth.

This is garbage. Christ said Himself HE is the only mediator between God and man. He needs no "deputy on earth". Who "authorized" him to be the substitute for Christ? Not Christ!

If he is just like any other Christian, why does he worship and pray to Mary? Why are his words so powerful within the RCC? Who else do you call "holy father"?

I don't call anyone on earth "holy father."

The Catholic Church, in the person of their cardinals, authorized Ratzinger to become the Pope, just as it has for sixteen or seventeen hundred years.

And, though I know you've heard it before and choose to remain ignorant of it, Catholics don't worship Mary. They consider praying to her just like me asking you... no, I mean someone I trust, to pray for me.

I am uncomfortable with this practice; another reason I remain Reformed.

 

[tragic_pizza]

I wasn't looking to bash anyone. This thread wouldn't have existed accept some of my "protestant" and "baptist" brothers bashed me for saying Catholicism isn't Christian. I thought this issue was self-evident amongst Baptists and "Protestants" but it looks like it is not as evident to some as it was to your friend.

Bashed and will continue to bash. It's an ignorant statement to make.

 

[Rufus_1611]

The word, taken in its context, means simply that the Pope is Christ's deputy on Earth; an "Ambassador for Christ" may be another way to put it.

This, of course, makes the Pope just like every other Christian in that respect.

Was this verse referring to the pope or the true Holy Father?

"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are."​

The pope has supreme power?

"For the Roman pontiff (pope), by reason of his office as vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered." - Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1994, P. 254 #882​

Has this been renounced? According to this Pope I can not be saved unless I'm subject to the Pope. Isn't this "hateful"?

"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff." -Pope Boniface VIII​

Sometimes I suspect that even if the Pope was carrying a twisted crucifix and sat down in a throne with an upside down cross behind him, you folks still wouldn't believe he was anti-christ.

[Edit: typo]

 

[Rufus_1611]

Bashed and will continue to bash. It's an ignorant statement to make.

Are you saved by works or by faith? Are works based religions Christian?

 

[tragic_pizza]

Are you saved by works or by faith? Are works based religions Christian?

I am saved by faith, as are Catholics. You need to more clearly define what you mean by "works based religions."

 

[Rufus_1611]

I am saved by faith, as are Catholics. You need to more clearly define what you mean by "works based religions."

Does anyone have to perform sacraments for salvation?

 

[tragic_pizza]

Does anyone have to perform sacraments for salvation?

It depends. Can someone join your church without being baptized?

 

[Rufus_1611]

It depends. Can someone join your church without being baptized?

Church membership is not salvation.

If a religious group says that their is no salvation accept through performing sacraments is this a Christian group?

 

[James_Newman]

I don't call anyone on earth "holy father."

The Catholic Church, in the person of their cardinals, authorized Ratzinger to become the Pope, just as it has for sixteen or seventeen hundred years.

And, though I know you've heard it before and choose to remain ignorant of it, Catholics don't worship Mary. They consider praying to her just like me asking you... no, I mean someone I trust, to pray for me.

I am uncomfortable with this practice; another reason I remain Reformed.

I would consider that necromancy at best. You ought to be uncomfortable with it.

 

[tragic_pizza]

Church membership is not salvation.

So if a person remains unbaptized and is not a church member, is he or she a Christian? Yes or no, since this pertains to my answer.

If a religious group says that their is no salvation accept through performing sacraments is this a Christian group?

It depends on whether that group acknowledges Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord.

 

[tragic_pizza]

I would consider that necromancy at best. You ought to be uncomfortable with it.

Necromancy? I don't think that's accurate, though I can see where you're coming from.

I think the Catholic view is that the "cloud of witnesses" the writer of Hebrews refers to is still active today. Much more of an acknowledgement of eternal life than anything.

Necromancy is black witchcraft, something every Catholic I know would run from.

 

[Rufus_1611]

So if a person remains unbaptized and is not a church member, is he or she a Christian? Yes or no, since this pertains to my answer.

If one has faith in the saving grace of Jesus Christ and that there is no work that they can or must do to get into Heaven then they believe in the Jesus that I believe in and are saved by His grace. Church membership has NOTHING to do with salvation. No one must come to my church or be a member in my church to be saved (ask the pope if he shares the same view).

It depends on whether that group acknowledges Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord.

An acknowledgement is not an acceptance of the blood atonement of Jesus Christ. If one says I believe in Jesus but then believes they have to work their way into heaven, then this is another Jesus.

 

[tragic_pizza]

If one has faith in the saving grace of Jesus Christ and that there is no work that they can or must do to get into Heaven then they believe in the Jesus that I believe in and are saved by His grace. Church membership has NOTHING to do with salvation. No one must come to my church or be a member in my church to be saved (ask the pope if he shares the same view).

As far as I know, the answer would be "yes."

An acknowledgement is not an acceptance of the blood atonement of Jesus Christ. If one says I believe in Jesus but then believes they have to work their way into heaven, then this is another Jesus.

Now you're splitting hairs. Acknowledging Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior must, by definition, include a belief in the blood atonement of Christ. And if you think the Catholi Church doesn't believe in the Blood of Jesus, you need to do some more research.