Catholic Taliban?

[DHK]

DHK: Try again. Read slowly!


From the article YOU provided:


"According to Christian historian, Dr. T. R. De Souza the proselytizing and militant Christian agencies like World Vision, Seventh Day Adventist Groups and various other missionary organizations in INDIA fully backed by unrestricted flow of cash from America and Europe, are engaged in illegal conversions ,fully supported by the anti-Hindu Sonia’s UPA Government in New Delhi since it came in power. These Christian marauders, very much like the Talibans of Afganisthan, beat Hindus to death for their refusal to convert to Christianity. Residents of Parmanpur village in Buxar District in Orissa have complained to the local public authorities that Christian missionaries are luring them to convert and threatening them with violence if they don’t obey.

According to Anjoriya Devi, her husband was beaten to death in her village in Buxar District by goons hired by missionaries. She says ‘They beat up my husband when he refused to convert to Christianity. They have threatened me too’.

Mithilesh Kumar, another resident of the same village, has alleged that the missionaries tried to lure him by offering him a job. They told me ‘If I remain a Hindu, I will remain unemployed and poor. I would have money and a job only if I am converted to Christianity’. Stories like these are numerous."

This is going on NOW not by Catholics but by Protestants. I'm sure if you actually had read anything except comments about the attrocities attributed to Catholics, you would NEVER have posted this. Your bais over rides everything, including the truth that Protestants are beating Hindus to death if they refuse to convert.

The author of the article, the one who put it together, is a Hindu. He is upset at what "Christianity" has done to India. IMO, the present day accusations are false. However, the facts stated about Xavier are true, for they are historical, not anecdotal as those at the beginning are. The beginning paragraphs cannot be verified. The facts concerning Xavier can be verified. I can give you other sources stating basically the same thing. I thought this would be more authoritative coming from a Hindu, but I didn't notice the "chip on his shoulder."

Consider:
This is what he says:

[FONT=&quot]Residents of Parmanpur village in Buxar District in Orissa have complained to the local public authorities that Christian missionaries are luring them to convert and threatening them with violence if they don’t obey.

This is a ridiculous accusation, especially considering the location--Orissa.

What is really happening in Orissa?

[/FONT]By James Varghese
Special to ASSIST News Service

KENDRAPARA, ORISSA, INDIA (ANS) -- A dozen RSS Hindu activists caught hold of Pastor at the bus stand of Kendrapara, Orissa, who was distributing some gospel tracts and literatures and then handed him over to the police, demanding for his arrest on October 2.

This news is according to the Global Council of Indian Christians (GCIC) website www.persecution.in

The story said that this incident took place at about 3 .30pm, as Pradip Hialo, a missionary, was distributing some gospel tracts and literatures in the Bus stand area of Kendrapara and suddenly a group of RSS activists caught hold of him and abused him with vulgar words and profaned the name of Jesus Christ.

Then these thugs beat up the pastor very badly leaving him fainted and finally took him to Kendrapara the nearest Police station. The tormentors accused him with false charge of converting Hindus into Christianity.

http://www.worthynews.com/1488-india-pastors-beaten-and-arrested-on-charges-of-conversion

Persecution of Christians in the state of Orissa happens on a regular basis. It happens at the hands of the Hindus. His allegations are totally false concerning the present. But concerning the events of Xavier, those things that happened in the 16th century, those are historical. They are verified by many other sources.

 

[DHK]

DHK - I don't know what "freedom of expression" means in your neck of the woods - but in mine it does not mean that you have freedom to use my micrphone to express your feelings - you have to get your own.

By doing this in the church during services this character was violating the rights of everyone else that was there to exercise their right to religious freedom.

How does this one person's right to expression over ride the rights of many people in their church?

Why wasn't this done outside? At a rally? On TV?

According to the CBCP website, Celdran's protest happened before a Mass marking the second anniversary of the “May They Be One Bible" campaign, an ecumenical program that seeks to distribute five million Bibles for poor Filipino families.

Things aren't always as they seem are they?

http://www.gmanews.tv/story/202402/rh-advocates-distribute-condoms-to-protest-celdrans-detention

 

[targus]

Things aren't always as they seem are they?

http://www.gmanews.tv/story/202402/rh-advocates-distribute-condoms-to-protest-celdrans-detention

What is your point?

What is not as it seems?

 

[lori4dogs]

The author of the article, the one who put it together, is a Hindu. He is upset at what "Christianity" has done to India. IMO, the present day accusations are false. However, the facts stated about Xavier are true, for they are historical, not anecdotal as those at the beginning are. The beginning paragraphs cannot be verified. The facts concerning Xavier can be verified. I can give you other sources stating basically the same thing. I thought this would be more authoritative coming from a Hindu, but I didn't notice the "chip on his shoulder."

Consider:
This is what he says:

This is a ridiculous accusation, especially considering the location--Orissa.

What is really happening in Orissa?

http://www.worthynews.com/1488-india-pastors-beaten-and-arrested-on-charges-of-conversion

Persecution of Christians in the state of Orissa happens on a regular basis. It happens at the hands of the Hindus. His allegations are totally false concerning the present. But concerning the events of Xavier, those things that happened in the 16th century, those are historical. They are verified by many other sources.

So of course, he is lying! I knew you would say that.

As far as Hindus being upset with missionaries and wanting them out. Can you blame them? Look what how those missionaries are behaving. Hiring GOONS to beat people into converting! How terrible!

 

[DHK]

So of course, he is lying! I knew you would say that.

As far as Hindus being upset with missionaries and wanting them out. Can you blame them? Look what how those missionaries are behaving. Hiring GOONS to beat people into converting! How terrible!

From another source we find the exact same words being quoted as the former:

We can see what was St. Francis Xavier"s first priority in India through his own words "I want to free the poor Hindus from the stranglehold of the Brahmins and destroy the places where evil spirits are worshipped. The Brahmins are the most perverse people in the world.... They never tell the truth, but think of nothing but how to tell subtle lies and to receive the simple and ignorant people... They are as perverse and wicked a set as can anywhere be found, and to whom applies the Psalm, which says: "From an unholy race, and wicked and crafty men, deliver me, Lord". The poor people do exactly what the Brahmins tell them.... If there were no Brahmins in the area, all Hindus would accept conversion to our faith".

This truly shows the compassion of a loving man deserving to be called a saint.
http://www.blogs.ivarta.com/Inquisition-Goa-Atrocities-Hindus-by-missionaries-II/blog-181.htm

 

[DHK]

What is your point?

What is not as it seems?

It was an ecumenical service.

 

[targus]

It was an ecumenical service.

What difference does that make?

It was their service.

Are you now dictating what services other churches are allowed to hold?

Does their church building become a public forum for political protestors because their service does not meet your standard?

You still haven't explained to me what your church would do if a disruptive outside refused to leave - other than man handling him.

What if he kept coming back into the building after the enforcers put him out?

 

[DHK]

What difference does that make?

It was their service.

Are you now dictating what services other churches are allowed to hold?

Does their church building become a public forum for political protestors because their service does not meet your standard?

You still haven't explained to me what your church would do if a disruptive outside refused to leave - other than man handling him.

What if he kept coming back into the building after the enforcers put him out?

I have told you what we do. If you refuse to accept the answer that is your problem. I refuse to go any further on conjecture. I gave a basic answer and that is sufficient.

 

[targus]

I have told you what we do. If you refuse to accept the answer that is your problem. I refuse to go any further on conjecture. I gave a basic answer and that is sufficient.

Yes, you would use physical assault rather than call for the lawful authorities.

Not a good Christian witness.

But you would just love to have video of Catholics physically removing a disrupter from their church.

You could add that to your list of Catholic attrocities.

I will pray for a softening of your heart.

 

[DHK]

What difference does that make?

It was their service.

Are you now dictating what services other churches are allowed to hold?

No, however this "service" wasn't their sacred "mass" that was "desecrated." It was simply an interfaith prayer service. It was not something solely Catholic.

Does their church building become a public forum for political protestors because their service does not meet your standard?

The protest had been going on much of the day. It had already been held outside of another Catholic Church. Perhaps his actions were not wise. The question is: Did what he do deserve jail sentence? The obvious answer is: NO.

You still haven't explained to me what your church would do if a disruptive outside refused to leave - other than man handling him.

I have given you an adequate answer. I am sure you can understand English.

Celdran to Aquino: I'll go with you if you are excommunicated

Meanwhile, Celdran said he was willing to join the President if they will be excommunicated by the Catholic Church for their stand on artificial contraception.

"If ever you're going to be excommunicated, sabay tayo (I will go with you)," Celdran said in a Balitanghali report.

The issue of Aquino's possible excommunication erupted after Bishop Nereo Odchimar of the Catholic Bishops’ Conference of the Philippines (CBCP) told Radio Veritas that imposing the sanction of excommunication on Aquino was a possibility but not a "proximate possibility."

Celdran advised the President "to stay strong."

http://www.gmanews.tv/story/202411/carlos-celdran-walks-free-after-family-posts-p6000-bail

The above is the real issue. It shows the tactics of the Catholic Taliban.
Notice that the Catholic Taliban have threatened the President of the nation of the Philippines with excommunication if she continues to take her stand on contraception.
The Taliban mentality rules in the Roman Catholic Church!

 

[targus]

No, however this "service" wasn't their sacred "mass" that was "desecrated." It was simply an interfaith prayer service. It was not something solely Catholic.

What difference does that make?

Are there church services which can be disrupted by protestors and some church services which cannot be disrupted by protestors.

Are you some kind of pope that gets to dictate what church services other churches are allowed to hold?

The protest had been going on much of the day. It had already been held outside of another Catholic Church. Perhaps his actions were not wise. The question is: Did what he do deserve jail sentence? The obvious answer is: NO.

And were the protestors outside of the church arrested? Is that "no"?

Apparently the law of the Philippines disagrees with you as to whether this guy broke the law or not. And apparently if he went to jail the court thought that he deserved it.

Too bad for you that you are not in charge of the laws in the Philippines - huh?

I have given you an adequate answer. I am sure you can understand English.

No, you have not told me what you or your church would do if a protestor refused to leave or returned after your enforcers physically assaulted him and bodily ejected him from the building

http://www.gmanews.tv/story/202411/carlos-celdran-walks-free-after-family-posts-p6000-bail

The above is the real issue. It shows the tactics of the Catholic Taliban.
Notice that the Catholic Taliban have threatened the President of the nation of the Philippines with excommunication if she continues to take her stand on contraception.
The Taliban mentality rules in the Roman Catholic Church!

So let me understand your position.

A church looses the Biblical right of excommunicating a member of the church for cause if that person happens to be a politician?

DHK - you really have to start thinking before typing.

 

[lori4dogs]

DHK, back when I was a student at California Baptist University, there was a student there that stood outside the entrance of a Catholic Church with a bull-horn during mass shouting towards the building "Mary didn't die for your sins, Jesus isn't on the cross anymore!" until the police finally came and arrested him for disturbing the peace. As this wasn't his first time doing this nonsense he served 30 days in jail and CBU expelled him. None of his punishment was the doing of the Catholic Church. In fact, the pastor of the Catholic Church wrote a letter to CBU saying that he and his parish understand the students actions and forgave him.

Did he deserve to go to jail? Did he derserve to be expelled by a Baptist University?

 

[DHK]

What difference does that make?

Are there church services which can be disrupted by protestors and some church services which cannot be disrupted by protestors.

There is a difference between a "mass" and an inter-faith prayer service. I thought you knew that. Oh well.:sleep:

Are you some kind of pope that gets to dictate what church services other churches are allowed to hold?

Whatever gave you that idea. I simply pointed out to you that there was a difference. This does get tiring. :sleep:

Apparently the law of the Philippines disagrees with you as to whether this guy broke the law or not. And apparently if he went to jail the court thought that he deserved it.

You have trouble understanding law don't you?
Here is an example:
Where I live it is against the law for those under 18 to ride a bicycle without a helmet. According to your view of the law if a policeman should see a ten year old without a helmet while riding a bicycle he should immediately take that child and throw him in jail for a couple of days, correct? This is the view that you have presented on the board.

In other words you fail to deal with: "does the punishment fit the crime?"
Jail time was not a fit punishment for a protester, was it.
Furthermore, it was not the government that set the punishment. It was the Catholic Taliban that set the punishment. Is that democracy?

Too bad for you that you are not in charge of the laws in the Philippines - huh?

It appears like the Catholic Taliban are in charge. Otherwise he would not have faced jail time.

No, you have not told me what you or your church would do if a protestor refused to leave or returned after your enforcers physically assaulted him and bodily ejected him from the building

Yes I have. I have given you as much as a policy as I care to give. I am not going to conjecture in vain things. The "what if" scenarios simply leads to what the Bible calls "vain imaginations." I will allow the Lord to lead me at any given occasion.

So let me understand your position.

A church looses the Biblical right of excommunicating a member of the church for cause if that person happens to be a politician?

Putting words into one's mouth--what is it called if it is false? Libel? Something close to that. You shouldn't do it. It is wrong.
The threat of excommunication is being held over the President of the nation if the President doesn't kiss the feet of the Church. How corrupt can the RCC be!! There is no better example of the corruption and wickedness of the church than this, and you dance around it with word games. You should be ashamed.

 

[DHK]

DHK, back when I was a student at California Baptist University, there was a student there that stood outside the entrance of a Catholic Church with a bull-horn during mass shouting towards the building "Mary didn't die for your sins, Jesus isn't on the cross anymore!" until the police finally came and arrested him for disturbing the peace. As this wasn't his first time doing this nonsense he served 30 days in jail and CBU expelled him. None of his punishment was the doing of the Catholic Church. In fact, the pastor of the Catholic Church wrote a letter to CBU saying that he and his parish understand the students actions and forgave him.

Did he deserve to go to jail? Did he derserve to be expelled by a Baptist University?

Since I don't know all the particulars of the situation I can't comment.

 

[targus]

There is a difference between a "mass" and an inter-faith prayer service. I thought you knew that. Oh well.:sleep:

Whatever gave you that idea. I simply pointed out to you that there was a difference. This does get tiring. :sleep:

Then what was your point in regards to this discussion?

You have trouble understanding law don't you?
Here is an example:
Where I live it is against the law for those under 18 to ride a bicycle without a helmet. According to your view of the law if a policeman should see a ten year old without a helmet while riding a bicycle he should immediately take that child and throw him in jail for a couple of days, correct? This is the view that you have presented on the board.

In other words you fail to deal with: "does the punishment fit the crime?"
Jail time was not a fit punishment for a protester, was it.
Furthermore, it was not the government that set the punishment. It was the Catholic Taliban that set the punishment. Is that democracy?

You and I don't set the law in the Philippines.

This guy broke their law.

He was arrested by their police.

He was put in their jail.

You are the one who seems to not understand the law - but then you don't seem to understand much of anything that you read as evidenced by your posts in this thread.

And how did the Catholic Church set the punishment? Be precise.

It appears like the Catholic Taliban are in charge. Otherwise he would not have faced jail time.

And there it is - because you do not agree with this particular law - and you do not agree with the enforcement of it...

Then it must be the Catholic Church that is responsible.

I would say that your logic is poor - but there is no logic present in your opinion.

Yes I have. I have given you as much as a policy as I care to give. I am not going to conjecture in vain things. The "what if" scenarios simply leads to what the Bible calls "vain imaginations." I will allow the Lord to lead me at any given occasion.

But you have an opinion as to how this situation should have been handled.

Why do you not have an opinion as to how your church would handle such a situation?

I can answer for you - because it would have to be one of two options:

Either your church enforcers would escalate the level of physical force used against such a person who would disturb your church activites

Or your church would call the police.

Either answer undercut your whole assinine Taliban slander.

And that is exactly the word for what you are doing here - slander.

It is not Christian and it is definitely unseemly.

Putting words into one's mouth--what is it called if it is false? Libel? Something close to that. You shouldn't do it. It is wrong.
The threat of excommunication is being held over the President of the nation if the President doesn't kiss the feet of the Church. How corrupt can the RCC be!! There is no better example of the corruption and wickedness of the church than this, and you dance around it with word games. You should be ashamed.

Prove me wrong then.

Does a church have the Biblical right to excommunicate a member for cause even if that person happens to be a politician?

 

[DHK]

Then what was your point in regards to this discussion?



You and I don't set the law in the Philippines.

This guy broke their law.

He was arrested by their police.

He was put in their jail.

You are the one who seems to not understand the law - but then you don't seem to understand much of anything that you read as evidenced by your posts in this thread.

And how did the Catholic Church set the punishment? Be precise.

He did not have to serve jail time. That was the demand of the Catholic Church.

And there it is - because you do not agree with this particular law - and you do not agree with the enforcement of it...

Then it must be the Catholic Church that is responsible.

I would say that your logic is poor - but there is no logic present in your opinion.

Read the articles. The Catholic Church for the most part does enforce the law. It has a hand in it. It is as much political as it is religious. The church and state in the Philippines are not separate.

But you have an opinion as to how this situation should have been handled.

Why do you not have an opinion as to how your church would handle such a situation?

I can answer for you - because it would have to be one of two options:

Either your church enforcers would escalate the level of physical force used against such a person who would disturb your church activites

Or your church would call the police.

Either answer undercut your whole assinine Taliban slander.

And that is exactly the word for what you are doing here - slander.

It is not Christian and it is definitely unseemly.

You are are wrong. In the Philippines there is a definite wrong that has been committed. The Catholic bishops are acting like thugs. It is in the past and present.
This is no comparison to any hypothetical situation that you can dream up in cyberspace. Apples and oranges. The Bible condemns the very thing you want me to do. Avoid vain speculation.

Prove me wrong then.

I already have. Let me repeat:

The threat of excommunication is being held over the President of the nation if the President doesn't kiss the feet of the Church. How corrupt can the RCC be!! There is no better example of the corruption and wickedness of the church than this, and you dance around it with word games. You should be ashamed.

Does a church have the Biblical right to excommunicate a member for cause even if that person happens to be a politician?

non sequitor.

 

[targus]

He did not have to serve jail time. That was the demand of the Catholic Church.

Because they pressed charges - which is their right?

Read the articles. The Catholic Church for the most part does enforce the law. It has a hand in it. It is as much political as it is religious. The church and state in the Philippines are not separate.

As I said before - the articles that you have posted don't say what you think.

I can't help you there.

You are are wrong. In the Philippines there is a definite wrong that has been committed. The Catholic bishops are acting like thugs. It is in the past and present.
This is no comparison to any hypothetical situation that you can dream up in cyberspace. Apples and oranges. The Bible condemns the very thing you want me to do. Avoid vain speculation.

I already have. Let me repeat:

The threat of excommunication is being held over the President of the nation if the President doesn't kiss the feet of the Church. How corrupt can the RCC be!! There is no better example of the corruption and wickedness of the church than this, and you dance around it with word games. You should be ashamed.

non sequitor.

This politician is publicly acting contrary to the teachings of the church of which he is a member.

A church has the right to excommunicate a member that openly defies the beliefs held by that church.

It is not a non sequitor - it is on point.

You are simply unable to see it because you are blinded by your hatred of Catholics.

Everyone here can see it.

 

[DHK]

Because they pressed charges - which is their right?



As I said before - the articles that you have posted don't say what you think.

I can't help you there.



This politician is publicly acting contrary to the teachings of the church of which he is a member.

A church has the right to excommunicate a member that openly defies the beliefs held by that church.

It is not a non sequitor - it is on point.

You are simply unable to see it because you are blinded by your hatred of Catholics.

Everyone here can see it.

This has nothing to do with Cedron or with his antics. You are blind to this fact. There is a bill in the making, soon to be passed. It deals with the public health of the nation, not with Cedron personally. He, like you, in this case would simply be an advocate against abortion (if that were the issue.)

The President of the nation is about to pass a bill into law for the good of the nation which the RCC doesn't like. He is being threatened with excommunication if he does so. In this regard the Catholic Taliban are acting like thugs. They are no better than Xavier who said: Be baptized or die. The sword of Catholicism is a cruel sword, and has corruption written all over it.

 

[targus]

This has nothing to do with Cedron or with his antics.

Cedron's arrest for breaking the law is your basis for slandering the Catholic Church with your Taliban nonsense.

You are blind to this fact. There is a bill in the making, soon to be passed. It deals with the public health of the nation, not with Cedron personally. He, like you, in this case would simply be an advocate against abortion (if that were the issue.)

Cedron is an advocate against abortion?????

Where are you getting this?

The Catholic Church is the party that is always an advocate against abortion.

Cedron is pushing for government sponsoring of contraception.

The President of the nation is about to pass a bill into law for the good of the nation which the RCC doesn't like. He is being threatened with excommunication if he does so.

He is pushing for a bill and supporting a position that is directly contrary to the teachings of the church to which he belongs.

Scripture provides for the excommunication of a member is such a situation.

Why don't you answer my very direct question - does a church loose the Scriptural remedy of excommunication of a member for cause simply because that person is a politician?

Does your hate of Catholics get priority over Scripture here?

 

[lori4dogs]

Targus said: "You are the one who seems to not understand the law - but then you don't seem to understand much of anything that you read as evidenced by your posts in this thread".

Boy, ain't that the truth. DHK would NEVER have provided the link he provided for his 'proof' of 'murders of St. Francis Xavier' had he realized it provided evidence of beatings and murders going on right now in India by fundamentalist like himself. What hypocricsy!