Catholicity key to Church Unity

[Russ Kelly]

John 17:17 "Sanctify them though your truth; your word is truth."

Tell me again, when did the RCC take God's Word off of the black list? When did it first encourage its members to study the Word for themselves without a individual believer-priests?

How many Catholics have prayed to their non-defunct St. Christopher for travel safety?

If the RC is so unifed in doctrine, then why has it changed doctrine at every church council? Does the truth change?

I would rather be a free Protestant with 200 or 200 churches to choose from than to be unifed under a dictataorial (and often very corrupt) system that tells me what I must do and believe in order to be saved?

 

[Doubting Thomas]

So I guess the moral of the story is, if the teaching of the RCC spelled out in the Catechism differs from Joe Protestant's interpretation of Scriptures, then Joe Protestant is justified (no pun intended) in dismissing Catholicism as "non-Christian". Long live Subjectivism!

 

[Kathryn]

I'll stick with Catholic teaching on salvation which is taught by Holy Scripture:

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." Ephesians 2 8-10

The unity Jesus prayed for is not an individual thing. We are individually members one of another. Jesus prayed for His Church to be one. According to Sacred Scripture there is One Lord, one faith, one baptism, one bread, one body of Christ.

Ephesians 4:5
one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Romans 12:5
so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

1 Corinthians 10:17
Since there is one bread, we who are many are one body; for we all partake of the one bread.


Some non-Catholics seems to focus on "just me and the Lord", and ignore the unity Jesus prayed for, or say it's not possible. But with God all things are possible. We also need to pray for what was important enough for Jesus Christ to pray for. Many even claim the benefits of being independent from one another, and soul freedom in what they believe.

One Lord, one faith, one Baptism, one bread, one body of Christ, united in the bond of Love.

"Beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity." Colossians 3:14

 

[Kathryn]

Some more thoughts on Unity in Christ from Holy Scripture:

1 Corinthians 12:25
so that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another.

1 Corinthians 12:26
And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.

Ephesians 4:25
Therefore, laying aside falsehood, SPEAK TRUTH EACH ONE of you WITH HIS NEIGHBOR, for we are members of one another.

 

[D28guy]

Kathryn...

"I know what the Catholic Church teaches, and I know what Holy Scripture teaches. This is both the teaching of Jesus Christ in Holy Scripture and His Church. We are saved by Grace through faith. Scripture is quite clear and the Churches teachings are quite clear."

I'm sorry, but you are very confused. If you believe you are justified before God by grace through faith, then the Catholic church has cursed you.

Here is their pronouncment upon you from the still binding Council of Trent...

"If anyone shall say that the ungodly man is justified by faith only so as to understand that nothing else is required that may cooperate to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is in no wise necessary for him to be prepared and disposed by the motion of his own will ... let him be accursed" (Canon 9).

"Canon 8. If anyone says that by the sacraments of the New Law grace is not conferred ex opere operato, but that faith alone in the divine promise is sufficient to obtain grace, let him be anathema."

Here the Catholic church is cursing the gospel of Jesus Christ.

The reason the Catholics have cursed you is because you do not affirm their false gospel that says we must produce satisfactory works to be saved...

"CANON XX.-If any one saith, that the man who is justified and how perfect soever, is not bound to observe the commandments of God and of the Church, but only to believe; as if indeed the Gospel were a bare and absolute promise of eternal life, without the condition of observing the commandments ; let him be anathema."

Its a very sad thing, no doubt.

God bless,

Mike

 

[D28guy]

Brother Adam,

"The Church teaches salvation is by grace alone through faith in Jesus Christ."

Can you put the word alone after the word "faith", as you did after "grace"?

No?

I didnt think so.

To fail to do so can make all the difference in the world.

(Actually, all the difference in the next world.)

We are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

Blessings,

Mike

 

[D28guy]

Jude,

Your plea for unity is commendable, but it is based on a faulty pre-supposition.

We are not to join in unity with organisations who proclaim a false gospel.

Do you believe we should enter into unity with the Jehovahs Witnesses, Mormons, Hindus, Buddhists, Zoroastrians and New Agers?

No?

Then why make an exception with the Catholic church, who is certainly as problematic as the Jehovahs Witnesses and Mormons, if not more so?

And, as has been pointed out, the unity Christ spoke of was unity among born again people. And we are one! We are one body. All of the born again people on earth are one body. And we should love each other no matter the group we are a part of. We can do better in that regard...but that is a completly different subject than how we deal with apostate false groups proclaiming a counterfiet gospel.

God bless,

Mike

 

[mioque]

"Then why make an exception with the Catholic church, who is certainly as problematic as the Jehovahs Witnesses and Mormons, if not more so?"
Trust me nobody can beat the Mormons in the completely different wacky religion claiming to be 'normal' Christians department. I've at least seen some real orthodox Christians, who were RC, still waiting for my first meeting with a Mormon I can say that about.

"All of the born again people on earth are one body. And we should love each other no matter the group we are a part of. We can do better in that regard..."
Amen, especially to that last sentence.

 

[BobRyan]

Mike,

The fact that Christ was speaking of unity within -- to a group that was "reformist" and "protesting" against the errors of the Jewish church, shows that the context could not have been "listen to your magesterium - the teachers of the One True church started by God at Sinai - even if they are in error at times. Because far worse than their errors would be your reformist, protesting disunity against them.".

And that is the telling point for those who appeal to Christ's support of unity in a way that would argue "for" remaining in the mother church no matter what.

They "could" easily have made the arguments above against the disciples saying "all true believers in the one true Creator God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob are in unity so don't rock the boat telling us about our errors".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Jude]

Originally posted by D28guy:
Jude,

Your plea for unity is commendable, but it is based on a faulty pre-supposition...the unity Christ spoke of was unity among born again people. And we are one! We are one body.

I fear many have confused 'Catholicity' with the Roman Catholic Church. Second, we are not fully one! Our doctrines divide us. God cannot be the God of such confusion. How can you say that we ARE 'one', when views are so divergent? Somebody is wrong. And Ray, I respect your heart but not your view here. I do believe that Jesus' prayer, "Father, may they be one," will be answered! We WILL see unity in heart AND mind.

 

[Pastor Larry]

I do believe that Jesus' prayer, "Father, may they be one," will be answered! We WILL see unity in heart AND mind.

[But the point I am making is that the unity will be among true believers, not just those who belong to a "church." The RCC doctrine of salvation is not the apostolic doctrine received from Christ. Someone who believes in that doctrine will never have unity with the body of Christ. Christ's prayer will be answered just as he prayed it.

 

[Jude]

1. Even amongst Protestants, doctrines of salvation differ. Which one is right?
2. Jesus established a CHURCH. You seem to be saying that it is 'invisible'. I just don't see any logic in this view.
3. Wouldn't 'true' believers share "one faith"?

 

[Jude]

Read again what Oden says about Catholicity...

"The larger church held that any doctrine had to show concurrence with prevailing worldwide intergenerational Christianlay consent. Arianism was another kind of test, since at one time numerous bishops were Arian. In spite of its relative pervasiveness for a few generations, it was ultimately voted down by the early church
because … it could not be found either in the apostolic teaching or in other generations before Arius."

Isn't the onus on Protestants -of every stripe- to defend their unique doctrines, and to base them not only on Scripture, but on the teachings of the ancient Church? If said doctrine cannot find any connection with the teachings of the early Church, then isn't this something that should be abandoned? Isn't this the way for the Church to truly be 'one'?

 

[Matt Black]

But unfortunately Vincent de Lerins' argument is circular: ecclesiology is intimately tied to theology, particularly soteriology, and vice versa; it's all very well saying 'true doctrine is that which has always been taught by the church/ all Christians everywhere and at every time' but the question is then 'who or what is the church'?

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[Pastor Larry]

1. Even amongst Protestants, doctrines of salvation differ. Which one is right?

Right doctrine is determined by Scripture. The fact is that while Scripture has varying degrees of clarity on some issues, there are many doctrines about which there is explicit data. That is the case with salvation. There is no real debate about the doctrine of salvation. Scripture is clear, it is a matter of submitting your mind and theology to Scripture.

2. Jesus established a CHURCH. You seem to be saying that it is 'invisible'. I just don't see any logic in this view.

Not saying that at all. There is an invisible church to be sure. Christ only has one body made up of all true believers of this age. Those are manifest in teh local church, members of which may not be saved since we cannot truly know the heart. The issue is only partly logic. It is largely theological and exegetical.

[quot]3. Wouldn't 'true' believers share "one faith"? [/quote]Yes, they do. All true believers believe the same thing about salvation. That is my point entirely ... sometimes who believes something different about salvation than Scripture teaches is not a true believer. One who believes in teh soteriology of the RCC is in that camp. The RCC doctrine contradicts the Scripture. Therefore, the RCC is not in "one faith" with the apostolic doctrine.

 

[Logan]

Greetings Russ: You stated,

Originally posted by Russ Kelly:
Tell me again, when did the RCC take God's Word off of the black list? When did it first encourage its members to study the Word for themselves without a individual believer-priests?

God's Word was never on any Church black list. Can you show your source for such a hostile statement?

If the RC is so unifed in doctrine, then why has it changed doctrine at every church council?

The fact is the Church has never changed a doctrine. Since you claim it has changed doctrine at "every church council," I am sure it will be very easy for you to name atleast one?

Does the truth change?

Never has and never will.

I would rather be a free Protestant with 200 or 200 churches to choose from than to be unifed under a dictataorial (and often very corrupt) system that tells me what I must do and believe in order to be saved?

Therein lies the problem my friend, we are not "free" to "choose" what way to salvation we want to take. Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life. No other way no matter how popular or how inviting they seem will suffice. One of the problems from the reformation is that over 25,000 different denominations have appeared, many teaching clear contradictions to Scripture such as acceptance of abortion, homosexuality and even Jesus' miracles did not really happen. That is the problem when man "decides" what is truth, instead of listening to God for actual Truth found in Jesus Christ.

So Russ, yes you are free to choose from the 200 or whatever churches you claim, but the fact that Jesus Christ is the only source for salvation will never change.

 

[Kathryn]

Jude's 3 points are valid:
1. Even amongst Protestants, doctrines of salvation differ. Which one is right?
2. Jesus established a CHURCH. You seem to be saying that it is 'invisible'. I just don't see any logic in this view.
3. Wouldn't 'true' believers share "one faith"?

Holy Scripture tells us there is one Lord, one faith, one baptism, also one bread, and one Body of Christ. We are one with each other. Even among Independent Baptists there is not one faith or one baptism, not to mind one bread. How can all the believers in Jesus Christ contend earnestly for the faith if they can't agree what to believe in, even in something so simple as salvation? Remember unity according to Jesus' prayer is not just "me and Jesus", unity is all the members of the Body being one together with Jesus Christ as the head.
Jesus says all things are possible with God, so no one can say this is impossible.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Some people will have a surprised look on their faces when they find some Roman Catholics in Heaven. The infamous woman of Revelation 17:5 is the above named church plus other Protestant denominations who do not believe Christ is Divine and hold to 'pro-choice views' and 'gay rights,' for example. Jesus through the Apostle John says in 18:5 'Come out of her, My people . . . ' There are Christians in these denominations but God most strongly encourages His people to not identify nor to support financially or with their presence these apostate churches. Let the people in 'sheep's clothing' remain in their lost condition in these social clubs, called the church.

Catholics cannot claim to believe in salvation by Christ's grace through faith, and then demand other obedience to other rules of said church. We are not saved by faith in Jesus plus going to 'confession,' or fulfilling the 'Easter duty.' No one keep saved or more saved by attending the weekly Mass. We are not saved by taking the Body and blood of our Lord, otherwise we have disenfranchised the true meaning of Ephesians 2:8-9.

'For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works {human merit} lest we should boast,' as to our pile of good things we have done and are doing that will affect our eternal destiny.

While our good deeds, going to church everyday or every Sunday, and loving action toward other people is never overlooked by the Lord, He will give us rewards in Heaven for beautifying our Christian faith. [I Cor. 3:11-15 at the Judgment Seat of Christ in Heaven. [II Cor. 5:10-11 & James 2:20 & Revelation 22:12]

By believing and knowing Jesus as Savior we are to let our 'light shine,' and He regenerated us to show to a lost world that Christ can change our inner being into something that is good. He has a plan for every true Christian no matter what church we label ourselves as being. Notice, Ephesians 2:10 says that because of our saving, once for all faith in Jesus Christ, ' . . . we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.'

Because Jesus is the Light of the world [John 8:12] and He has touched our lives because of our faith/trust in Him, He has made us the children of light. [Ephesians 5:8; Colossians 1:12; I Thessalonians 5:5]

John gets right to the whole issue in Romans 5:1-2 'Therefore being justified by FAITH, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. By whom also we have access by FAITH into this grace {not by the sacramental Eucharist} wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.'

One of God's greatest desires is that we love Him and we portray that love by being obedient to all that He has said in His Word. No church saves. Only Jesus saves. [John 3:16]

We are not saved by our perfect performance in this lifetime, because all Christians fail at times. We are Christian because of our faith and trust in His reality and are cleansed by His blood. 'If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.' [I John 1:9] No earthly minister is required as our human mediator and there is no sacrament mentioned in this chapter.

 

[Kathryn]

The Catholic Church teaches we are saved by Grace through faith.. We are saved by Grace through faith, not by “faith alone” which is “dead” according to Holy Scripture.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." Ephesians 2 8-10

We are created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that would walk in them. If Christ is not working in a person, there is no life.

Of course the subject of this thread however is unity and seems very difficult for many Protestants here to focus on.

Jude's 3 points are valid:
1. Even amongst Protestants, doctrines of salvation differ. Which one is right?
2. Jesus established a CHURCH. You seem to be saying that it is 'invisible'. I just don't see any logic in this view.
3. Wouldn't 'true' believers share "one faith"?

Holy Scripture tells us there is one Lord, one faith, one baptism, also one bread, and one Body of Christ. We are one with each other. Even among Independent Baptists there is not one faith or one baptism, not to mind one bread. How can all the believers in Jesus Christ contend earnestly for the faith if they can't agree what to believe in, even in something so simple as salvation? Remember unity according to Jesus' prayer is not just "me and Jesus", unity is all the members of the Body being one together with Jesus Christ as the head.
Jesus says all things are possible with God, so no one can say this is impossible.

 

[Kathryn]

How is there one Faith?

How is there one Baptism?

How is there one bread?

How is each member one with another in the body of Christ?