While I -somewhat- respect the notion of an 'invisible' Church, I must say I disagree with that notion. People who promote this very-often have the kind of 'rugged individualism' that Protestantism is famous for, and why it is divided so-many ways. The Church that Jesus established is 'one' 'holy' 'catholic' and 'apostolic'. How can Protestantism claim to be 'one'? I would see 'holiness' as something all Christians can attain, and would also see it as something the Lord REQUIRES. Ray, you mention 'faith alone' but I don't see that phrase in Scripture, except where James says we are NOT saved by "faith alone". And while I would argue that we are saved by GRACE ALONE, AND THROUGH FAITH...doesn't it all depend on how one defines 'faith'? Isn't faith trust and love AND OBEDIENCE? Check the context of Jesus' remarks in John 15. Doesn't He tell us there that we will remain/abide in Him if we OBEY? The third mark of the Church, being 'Catholic' means exactly what St Vincent said of it...at all times, in all places.(of course, in my opinion, that would mean that certain Roman doctrines would have to be abandoned...for example the controversy around 'filoque', pergatory, etc.) THAT is where most Protestants fall-flat...their unique doctrines have no-warrant in the teachings of the early Church, and frankly, don't hold-up to Scripture either. And also, of course, they-then are not Apostolic, either in what they hold, nor in their Orders. I still believe 'Catholicity' is the key to Church unity, a unity that Jesus prayed for, recorded in John's gospel.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Catholicity key to Church Unity
- Thread starter Jude
- Start date
Ray Berrian
New Member
You said, 'Jesus says all things are possible with God, so no one can say this is impossible.'
Ray is saying, 'God only does those things that are in agreement with Divine nature. These include things like His love, infinity, justice, mercy, judgment, holiness and so on.
The Lord cannot sin and neither can He nor does He want to send certain sinners to Hell. He opens His arms of love to every human being. [John 3:16]
I believe in John seventeen Jesus is saying that He knows who are His people and implies that they are found in all denominations, and, of course, within the Catholic church. God is not urging a one world, universal church under one denominational banner. Each of us knows whether we are a child of God or not part of His church/kingdom. And we sense even on the board that most a part of the family of God and that we are bound together by His precious Holy Spirit. This is the Catholicity and universality that Jesus is referring to in His Word.
We are one in the Spirit we are one in the Lord.
Ray is saying, 'God only does those things that are in agreement with Divine nature. These include things like His love, infinity, justice, mercy, judgment, holiness and so on.
The Lord cannot sin and neither can He nor does He want to send certain sinners to Hell. He opens His arms of love to every human being. [John 3:16]
I believe in John seventeen Jesus is saying that He knows who are His people and implies that they are found in all denominations, and, of course, within the Catholic church. God is not urging a one world, universal church under one denominational banner. Each of us knows whether we are a child of God or not part of His church/kingdom. And we sense even on the board that most a part of the family of God and that we are bound together by His precious Holy Spirit. This is the Catholicity and universality that Jesus is referring to in His Word.
We are one in the Spirit we are one in the Lord.
“We are one in the Spirit we are one in the Lord.”
You have got to be kidding yourself Ray. Most here say independence even from other Christian churches is what it is about, just me and the Lord. They are far from one mind even about how they are saved even within their own church. They ignore that fact that there is one faith, one baptism , one bread, one body, and the word of God teaches we are to be of one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel.
Philippians 1:27
Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or remain absent, I will hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;
Most would deny there is one baptism, most would deny there is one bread because they don't believe in sacraments. For God it's possible, for man it's not possible. God's word and prayer tells us it is possible.
You have got to be kidding yourself Ray. Most here say independence even from other Christian churches is what it is about, just me and the Lord. They are far from one mind even about how they are saved even within their own church. They ignore that fact that there is one faith, one baptism , one bread, one body, and the word of God teaches we are to be of one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel.
Philippians 1:27
Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or remain absent, I will hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;
Most would deny there is one baptism, most would deny there is one bread because they don't believe in sacraments. For God it's possible, for man it's not possible. God's word and prayer tells us it is possible.
Brother Adam
New Member
This thread took off like a rocket. I'll just comment in this fashion- you say that you've read the council of Trent, fine, what about the other 19 councils? Also, did you take everything you read at face value?
Finally I leave you with this:
1 Tim. 3:15 (ESV)
if I delay, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, a pillar and buttress of truth.
lalalala...and we go "on and on and on".
It sure did. Paul was refering to the one and the same Church Jesus Christ established. The city on the hill, the light of the world, the pillar and foundation of truth, the body of Christ, with Himself as head. The one holy catholic apostolic church.
It is interesting that most here can't discuss unity in the Scriptural sense, but have to resort to discussing the Catholic Church. How do you have the same one bread that St. Paul speaks of? How do you have the one baptism? How do you have one mind about salvation or anything else regarding the one faith?
Oh the wonders of symantics. You wish to use the word catholic as you choose to make your point. That term is not in the Scriptures. There is one baptism, one faith, one body but it is not found in a church organization that was establish some 250 years after Paul wrote his epistle. At least you could be historically honest about the origin of the RCC. That religious body is not spoken of in the Bible and its existence and doctrine is the antithesis of the Holy Scripture and the true Church of Jesus.
Catholic means universal as described in the Great Commission to go out to all nations, baptizing them and teaching them to observe all that Jesus has commanded. Paul was refering to the one and the same Church Jesus Christ established. The city on the hill, the light of the world, the pillar and foundation of truth, the body of Christ, with Himself as head. The one holy catholic apostolic church.
It is interesting that most here can't discuss unity in the Scriptural sense, but have to resort to discussing the Catholic Church. How do you have the same one bread that St. Paul speaks of? How do you have the one baptism? How do you have one mind about salvation or anything else regarding the one faith?
It is interesting that most here can't discuss unity in the Scriptural sense, but have to resort to discussing the Catholic Church. How do you have the same one bread that St. Paul speaks of? How do you have the one baptism? How do you have one mind about salvation or anything else regarding the one faith?
Brother Adam
New Member
Of course Bro. Tony, of course. 
I mean, we can all ignore that catholic, does not refer to a distinct denomination, and instead, universal, i.e. "the church" which you are considered a member of. We can take Trent and certain sloppily cut and pasted phrases from the catechism and "prove" the "whole of Babylon" status of those who claim Christ as "our only Savior and mediator between God and man" instead of asking for clarification. We can even take our historical statistics from those who claim that in the inquisition 73 million people were murdered by the "RCC" despite that would wipe the RCC itself. A nuclear bomb couldn't have done as much damage according to those stats.
Ah yes, the wonder of symantics.
I mean, we can all ignore that catholic, does not refer to a distinct denomination, and instead, universal, i.e. "the church" which you are considered a member of. We can take Trent and certain sloppily cut and pasted phrases from the catechism and "prove" the "whole of Babylon" status of those who claim Christ as "our only Savior and mediator between God and man" instead of asking for clarification. We can even take our historical statistics from those who claim that in the inquisition 73 million people were murdered by the "RCC" despite that would wipe the RCC itself. A nuclear bomb couldn't have done as much damage according to those stats.
Ah yes, the wonder of symantics.
Do all or any Baptist churches have one bread that St. Paul speaks of? Do all or any Baptist churches have one baptism? Or are these things just individual statements of individual people. Personal, individual statements of faith. Or does God make it possible that there is one baptism, one bread, that the whole body of Christ shares in, because all things are possible for God? If not, please explain why the Holy Scriptures says it is so. My point is that these teachings of Holy Scripture don't seem to be taught in Baptist Churches. What seems to be taught is "just me and Jesus". Where is the unity of the body with each other. Where is the one bread, one body, one faith, one mind? If not in reality, at least where is the prayer for this unity? It seems that most don't even want it. They don't even believe in it. This is contrary to Jesus' prayer and His gospel.
Bro Adam,
Those are your statements, they are not mine. While many things are done in the name of religion by all religious groups it is not the acts that you mention (true, untrue, partially true) that concerns me its biblical doctrine.
Kathryn,
It is clear you know not of which you speak. That certainly there are some Baptist churches that may not teach the Scripture (that being true of some churches in every denomination) those that are biblical teach the whole council of God. The source of unity in the church is Christ. It is not something we strive for, it just is if we are genuinely in Christ. Jesus' own words "Father as I am in you and you are in me may they be one in Us". Jesus did not have to strive to be one with the Father, He was one with the Father. We don't have to strive for unity, we have unity if we are in Christ. Ecumenical efforts for unity are in vane. Because the true Body of Christ is not divided, we are one in Him. If we are not in Him there can be no unity biblically. It doesn't matter what church tradition says.
Bro Tony
Those are your statements, they are not mine. While many things are done in the name of religion by all religious groups it is not the acts that you mention (true, untrue, partially true) that concerns me its biblical doctrine.
Kathryn,
It is clear you know not of which you speak. That certainly there are some Baptist churches that may not teach the Scripture (that being true of some churches in every denomination) those that are biblical teach the whole council of God. The source of unity in the church is Christ. It is not something we strive for, it just is if we are genuinely in Christ. Jesus' own words "Father as I am in you and you are in me may they be one in Us". Jesus did not have to strive to be one with the Father, He was one with the Father. We don't have to strive for unity, we have unity if we are in Christ. Ecumenical efforts for unity are in vane. Because the true Body of Christ is not divided, we are one in Him. If we are not in Him there can be no unity biblically. It doesn't matter what church tradition says.
Bro Tony
I'll repeat and try to simplify my question about unity that no one has addressed. Do all or any Baptist churches have one bread that St. Paul speaks of? Do all or any Baptist churches have one baptism? Or are these things just individual statements of individual people__ personal, individual statements of faith. Or does God make it possible that there is one baptism, one bread, that the whole body of Christ shares in, because all things are possible for God?
I would not argue about the validity of any Protestant's faith in Jesus Christ. That is not an issue, it seems to me. But how can the Church (which is invisible?)be truly 'one' when it's voice is NOT one, when it's teachings are NOT one, when it's doctrines are NOT one? I remember being at a ministerial prayer meeting, where an Assembly of God pastor prayed, "And Jesus, help us to lay aside our denominational differences and just worship you." The sentiment was wonderful, but the logic was lacking.
Eph.4.4-6 There is one body and one Spirit — just as you were called to one hope when you were called — one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
How can a divided Protestantism say their is 'one faith'? And, to be fair, how can the Orthodox and the RCC say this as well? I believe that the Church WILL become truly one before the end of the age. And that means -probably- every 'church' will have some doctrines (and attitudes) to repent of.
Eph.4.4-6 There is one body and one Spirit — just as you were called to one hope when you were called — one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
How can a divided Protestantism say their is 'one faith'? And, to be fair, how can the Orthodox and the RCC say this as well? I believe that the Church WILL become truly one before the end of the age. And that means -probably- every 'church' will have some doctrines (and attitudes) to repent of.
"Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."---Ignatius of Antioch (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 8,1) A.D. 110
As far as I know this is the first writen record there is of the term "Catholic Church."
I doubt that this is the first time this name was used as it means universal, and that is exactly the kind of Church that Jesus founded.
So saying it was founded "250 years after the writing of his epistle" is a little off.
Jude: I certainly am not arguing the validity of any Protestant's faith in Jesus Christ. I am concerned about most here’s seeming lack of wanting the unity that Jesus Christ and the word of God speak of. No one here will even discuss or acknowledge that fact that Scripture says there is one bread, and one baptism, and how all in the body of Christ share Christ’s sacrifice each with the other and with Him. This is the word of God. This is also the unity that Jesus prayed for, that the whole body of Christ be one. I think that it’s important to first acknowledge the unity that does exist that Holy Scripture tells us is a fact and is part of the faith handed down to the saints___ one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one bread, one body. Then examine ourselves and see how we share as members of this one body of Christ. If we don’t even want this unity, then we are not accepting the will of God. This is not anything, but what is taught in Holy Scripture.
Logan,
Again we deal with symatics that will never be agreed upon. I did not say the term catholic was not used in those early dates, I said the Roman Catholic Church was not founded until some 250 years following Paul's writings. Again, I repeat the term catholic and certainly the Roman Catholic Church are not even mentioned in the Scripture. Strange for a church that was supposed to be the only church founded by Jesus and supposedly led originally by Peter.
Just so you know, I am not impressed by what the early "church fathers" say, although it gives us historical information, their words are certainly not Scripture. If I thought the Bible taught that the church is the RCC then I would be a part of that church.
Bro Tony
Again we deal with symatics that will never be agreed upon. I did not say the term catholic was not used in those early dates, I said the Roman Catholic Church was not founded until some 250 years following Paul's writings. Again, I repeat the term catholic and certainly the Roman Catholic Church are not even mentioned in the Scripture. Strange for a church that was supposed to be the only church founded by Jesus and supposedly led originally by Peter.
Just so you know, I am not impressed by what the early "church fathers" say, although it gives us historical information, their words are certainly not Scripture. If I thought the Bible taught that the church is the RCC then I would be a part of that church.
Bro Tony
Kathryn,
You keep stating that the Holy Scriptures says that there is "one bread". You state that the Apostle Paul said this. I am going to have to have you help my ignorance and please give me the Scripture reference so I can study this and give you a response. Thanks for the help.
Bro Tony
You keep stating that the Holy Scriptures says that there is "one bread". You state that the Apostle Paul said this. I am going to have to have you help my ignorance and please give me the Scripture reference so I can study this and give you a response. Thanks for the help.
Bro Tony
I would not argue about the validity of any Protestant's faith in Jesus Christ. That is not an issue[/quote][/qb]The RCC said it was an issue. They pronounced an anathema on those who believe what many protestants (though not all) believe about salvation. What authority do you have to go about disagreeing with teh "one faith" of the RCC??
You see, this "one faith/one bread" argument doesn't even work in Catholicism. There are many Catholics who disagree with the church. There are different Catholic organizations. At times in history there has even been more than one pope. People too easily forget history.
You see, this "one faith/one bread" argument doesn't even work in Catholicism. There are many Catholics who disagree with the church. There are different Catholic organizations. At times in history there has even been more than one pope. People too easily forget history.
This questions was already answered, Kathryn. The answer is (and was) that all Baptist churches who teach biblical doctrine agree and have one baptism. You will find that Baptists are united on teh issues of soteriology. The RCC is different. The RCC has left the biblical doctrine of salvation. All who believe in teh biblical doctrine of salvation are of one faith. That doesn't mean that they all agree on every minor area of doctrine. It means they agree on those things about which SCripture is explicit. There are things that God in his wisdom did not make explicit. On those things, there is liberty.