But we are saved (become that spiritually "risen" "new man") upon receiving Christ. Originally, this was intimately connected with water baptism, as in NT evangelism as soon as one accepted Christ, they were baptized on the spot. That was the "symbol" of "dying" with him, and "rising again". Now, of course, nobody just baptizes anyone right away, but instead gives them membership classes, etc. first. As I discuss on Altar Calls, Baptism, and Conversion, the altar call has become sort of what baptism was. This may not have been a scriptural change, but even the RCC does not follow the original practice in this. So you cannot say that Baptism is what saves or marks the death of the old man, and rise of the new. It was a symbol, that did basically mark that event, but is now separated from initial conversion.The spiritual is real for those who are Christian. Nothing about only a outward signs of unity. That would be meaningless. The unity is real, physical and spiritual. In baptism we really die with Christ and rise with Christ.
Also, Christ did not "die" and "rise" in baptism; He died and rose in His actual death and resurrection. He was baptized to set the practice for us ("to fulfill all righteousness"), but only to us, is it a commemoration of His death and resurrection.
The act of coming together as a BODY —Christ's body, is what makes it sharing in the body and blood of Christ. Not some doctrine that bread and wine actually BECOMES literally and physically, the body and blood.In the Eucharist we really share in the one bread, with everyone else in the body of Christ, in His sacrifice. If it just represented unity, there would not really be one bread or one body.
No where does the Bible say anything about an outward sign. We really are born again, we really do share in the body and blood of His sacrifice. We really are one with each and everyone else in the body of Christ when we eat the one bread.
Notice in one place you say there are no "outward signs", but then you acknowledge that that is what they are. That is all I am saying. "Outward signs of spiritual realities!Baptism and the Eucharist are both outward signs of a spiritual reality. Otherwise we have not been born again, and we don't share in the body of Christ as the word of God says we do.
Brother Tony: In order to preserve your view, you have more than one baptism going here. This is the point of the unity. There is only one Baptism, the one the Lord gave us. Those who were baptized previously by John had to be baptzed into Jesus Christ's baptism. Go to all nations baptizing in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ is quite clear in the Great Commission. In baptism one must be born of water and the Spirit. We die with Christ and rise with Christ. There isn't two baptisms. Water baptism is an outward sign of a spiritual reality.
No, that is not "two baptisms". You seem to be assuming that our view of repentance being what marks salvation corresponds to John's baptism "of repentance". But no, we believe like you that now it is different in that we are now given the Holy Spirit as you said. John's baptism was but a forerunner, and the two "baptisms" are in effect joined into one.John's baptisms were not the one baptism Jesus gives us. Holy Scripture teaches John's baptism was one of repentence and believing in Jesus Christ.
This was not the one baptism they needed after the Redemption. They did not have the Holy Spirit by repenting and believing in Him. Those who had John's baptism needed Jesus’ baptism of water and the Holy Spirit. There is only one Baptism for the Christian, the one Jesus gives us whereby we die with Him and rise with Him and are declared a child of God
Regarding how "baptism doth now save" (1 Pet.3:21); it's baptism "by one spirit into one body" (becoming a Christian or member of Christ's body)(1 Cor. 12:13) that saves, and water baptism was the outward symbol of the person's conscience being cleared when he receives forgiveness for his sins, which are symbolically "buried" in the water, and than the "new man" rises out of it, as in a resurrection. As I said, the physical act originally accompanied the spiritual act, but now are separated by Church initiation. So the physical water baptism is not a "second baptism", but rather a part of the one baptism, though it may be delayed in time.