Catholics, and the Eucharist.

[Thinkingstuff]

We aren't going to have a debate on the Eucharist now are we? People get so stuck in accusation that it becomes about that rather than the topic. Shame really. ***SIGH***

 

[Jerome]

From a recent thread:

Our new church plant has a name....it was decided to not use the "Baptist" name in the main name of the church....So, we went with "Christian Church"

Kind of puts all these accusations of spin, fraud, deception, denying your denomination, etc. into perspective, doesn't it?

 

[webdog]

We aren't going to have a debate on the Eucharist now are we? People get so stuck in accusation that it becomes about that rather than the topic. Shame really. ***SIGH***

In all honesty if the author of the OP would have been forthright to begin with this thread would never be in existence. If you want to debate whether the bread is actually Christ, why not do so on a catholic board?

 

[webdog]

From a recent thread:



Kind of puts all these accusations of spin, fraud, deception, denying your denomination, etc. into perspective, doesn't it?

Not really as the church remains a baptist church. Not really about the name of a church within a denomination.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

In all honesty if the author of the OP would have been forthright to begin with this thread would never be in existence. If you want to debate whether the bread is actually Christ, why not do so on a catholic board?

Because I don't want to be out numbered. And usually like here I don't get honest answers I get the Catholic Version of DHK saying something like all protestants are going to hell because we don't believe as they do. I've tried. But here a Catholic will resort to having honest answers and we can have an actual debate.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

BTW you have to love the statement of faith that says:


"Jesus saves?" As if it were a question.

 

[Joshua Patrick]

An argument from silence does not hold water. If you are going to take this as literally as you do, Jesus must be God, man and bread.

"I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me will never hunger, and whoever believes in me will never thirst." (John:6)

...and hence cannibalism.

He warned them not to think carnally, but spiritually: "It is the Spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life" (John 6:63; cf. 1 Cor. 2:12–14).

The words I have spoken to you are spirit" does not mean "What I have just said is symbolic." The word "spirit" is never used that way in the Bible. The line means that what Christ has said will be understood only through faith; only by the power of the Spirit and the drawing of the Father (cf. John 6:37, 44–45, 65).

Now you are picking and choosing how you want to us any given
statement. You cannot prove He did not mean symbolically...it goes against all logic as well. My God is not a piece of bread.

I'm sure, your a smart man, If you read my argument, why he did not mean symbolically, but literally you will find out, it's a good argument, which pretty much destroy's all symbolically theology on the "Flesh and Blood of Christ"

"‘I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.’ The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, ‘How can this man give us his flesh to eat?’" (John 6:51–52).

...but the first two statements do not say "like" a door and "like" a vine. If you are going to use the faulty hermeneutic of keeping to a literal interpretation with John 6:35, you must be consistent throughout John's letters.

John 10:9 ("I am the door") and John 15:1 ("I am the true vine"). These have symbolic meanings behind them.

- John 10:9 ("I am the door") - Christ is like a door—we go to heaven through him

- John 15:1 ("I am the true vine") - he is also like a vine—we get our spiritual sap through him.

Christ takes John 6:35 far beyond symbolism by saying, "For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed" (John 6:55).



You claim that coming to him is bread, having faith in him is drink. Thus, eating his flesh and blood merely means believing in Christ.

As stated in my first post:

But there is a problem with that interpretation. As Fr. John A. O’Brien explains, "The phrase ‘to eat the flesh and drink the blood,’ when used figuratively among the Jews, as among the Arabs of today, meant to inflict upon a person some serious injury, especially by calumny or by false accusation. To interpret the phrase figuratively then would be to make our Lord promise life everlasting to the culprit for slandering and hating him, which would reduce the whole passage to utter nonsense" (O’Brien, The Faith of Millions, 215). For an example of this use, see Micah 3:3.


God Bless.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

"I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me will never hunger, and whoever believes in me will never thirst." (John:6)



He warned them not to think carnally, but spiritually: "It is the Spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life" (John 6:63; cf. 1 Cor. 2:12–14).

The words I have spoken to you are spirit" does not mean "What I have just said is symbolic." The word "spirit" is never used that way in the Bible. The line means that what Christ has said will be understood only through faith; only by the power of the Spirit and the drawing of the Father (cf. John 6:37, 44–45, 65).




I'm sure, your a smart man, If you read my argument, why he did not mean symbolically, but literally you will find out, it's a good argument, which pretty much destroy's all symbolically theology on the "Flesh and Blood of Christ"

"‘I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.’ The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, ‘How can this man give us his flesh to eat?’" (John 6:51–52).




John 10:9 ("I am the door") and John 15:1 ("I am the true vine"). These have symbolic meanings behind them.

- John 10:9 ("I am the door") - Christ is like a door—we go to heaven through him

- John 15:1 ("I am the true vine") - he is also like a vine—we get our spiritual sap through him.

Christ takes John 6:35 far beyond symbolism by saying, "For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed" (John 6:55).



You claim that coming to him is bread, having faith in him is drink. Thus, eating his flesh and blood merely means believing in Christ.

As stated in my first post:

But there is a problem with that interpretation. As Fr. John A. O’Brien explains, "The phrase ‘to eat the flesh and drink the blood,’ when used figuratively among the Jews, as among the Arabs of today, meant to inflict upon a person some serious injury, especially by calumny or by false accusation. To interpret the phrase figuratively then would be to make our Lord promise life everlasting to the culprit for slandering and hating him, which would reduce the whole passage to utter nonsense" (O’Brien, The Faith of Millions, 215). For an example of this use, see Micah 3:3.


God Bless.

So your position is that it is the "actual body of our Lord and the actual blood of our lord" How is that possible? When the doctrine of Transubstantiation holds that the accidents do not change? It therefore becomes a spiritual truth and the actual body and blood aren't consumed saved in a metaphorical spiritual sense.

 

[Joshua Patrick]

So your position is that it is the "actual body of our Lord and the actual blood of our lord" How is that possible? When the doctrine of Transubstantiation holds that the accidents do not change? It therefore becomes a spiritual truth and the actual body and blood aren't consumed saved in a metaphorical spiritual sense.

We totally believe the bread and wine, turn into the flesh, and blood of Jesus Christ, when the priest calls down the Holy Spirit, within the Holy Sacrifice.

Although it does not change, into actually flesh and blood, although in some cases it as. Throughout Christian history, our Lord has shown us that he is really present as the Blessed Sacrament. Interestingly, many Eucharistic miracles have occurred during times of weakened Faith. For instance, many Eucharist miracles have taken place as a result of someone doubting the Real Presence. Included on this page are descriptions of just a few of these miracles. All of them have received full approval by the Church, through un-biased scientific study and research.

Here is a good website, http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/a3.html

To read about the eucharistic miracles, that have happened throughout the ages.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

We totally believe the bread and wine, turn into the flesh, and blood of Jesus Christ, when the priest calls down the Holy Spirit, within the Holy Sacrifice.

Although it does not change, into actually flesh and blood, although in some cases it as. Throughout Christian history, our Lord has shown us that he is really present as the Blessed Sacrament. Interestingly, many Eucharistic miracles have occurred during times of weakened Faith. For instance, many Eucharist miracles have taken place as a result of someone doubting the Real Presence. Included on this page are descriptions of just a few of these miracles. All of them have received full approval by the Church, through un-biased scientific study and research.

Here is a good website, http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/a3.html

To read about the eucharistic miracles, that have happened throughout the ages.

Eucharistic miracles are irrelevant to the discussion. As you've mentioned "in some sense" in other words you are not ingesting the actual body and blood of Christ but some spiritual similtude of what you think is the essense of God? isn't that more accurate? How about my post #14? With regard to Eucharista?

 

[Joshua Patrick]

BTW you have to love the statement of faith that says:

"Jesus saves?" As if it were a question.

You know full well, I did not mean it like that.

When signing up, it states "Why do you think your going to heaven?"

I stated: Jesus Saves?

It was rhetorical question.

Rhetorical questions are a figure of speech in the form of a question posed for its persuasive effect without the expectation of a reply. Rhetorical questions encourage the listener to think about what the (often obvious) answer to the question must be.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

You know full well, I did not mean it like that.

When signing up, it states "Why do you think your going to heaven?"

I stated: Jesus Saves?

It was rhetorical question.

Rhetorical questions are a figure of speech in the form of a question posed for its persuasive effect without the expectation of a reply. Rhetorical questions encourage the listener to think about what the (often obvious) answer to the question must be.

It didn't look that way. Also did you know a common view in Jesus' day of totally assimulating Torah (Hebrew law) in to your everyday life and spiritual practice was to say "eating torah"? When John 6 reviews Jesus statement it could be very well he meant "gnaw" me. Or eat me or my teachings and apply it your life. Which in the common vernacular would mean ingest everything I've said and taught.

 

[Joshua Patrick]

Because I don't want to be out numbered. And usually like here I don't get honest answers I get the Catholic Version of DHK saying something like all protestants are going to hell because we don't believe as they do. I've tried. But here a Catholic will resort to having honest answers and we can have an actual debate.

I don't know what Catholic websites you have been visiting. The largest and most organized, Catholic forums on the website is, www.catholic.com.

It as a large community of members. You will not find, people who say "protestants are going to hell because we don't believe as they do." - They would seriously get banned, it also stupid since the Catechism of the Catholic Church, does not teach that. I suggest you sign up, if you wish to debate Catholics in a more wider perspective. It is a friendly environment.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I don't know what Catholic websites you have been visiting. The largest and most organized, Catholic forums on the website is, www.catholic.com.

It as a large community of members. You will not find, people who say "protestants are going to hell because we don't believe as they do." - They would seriously get banned, it also stupid since the Catechism of the Catholic Church, does not teach that. I suggest you sign up, if you wish to debate Catholics in a more wider perspective. It is a friendly environment.

Its only friendly if your catholic. I can pull up post not so friendly to protestants.

 

[annsni]

From a recent thread:




Kind of puts all these accusations of spin, fraud, deception, denying your denomination, etc. into perspective, doesn't it?

Not when we are a second campus of Northport Baptist Church. It's hard to have Northport Baptist Church not in Northport.

 

[annsni]

If it becomes actual blood, then we are disobeying God in ingesting blood.

Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Acts 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

 

[targus]

Not when we are a second campus of Northport Baptist Church. It's hard to have Northport Baptist Church not in Northport.

In the interest of full disclosure:

"...because "Baptist" has SUCH a negative connotation here on Long Island. Seriously, we've spoken to people who would have come to our church but when they heard it was "Baptist" (we're not part of any convention, however - fully independent), they refused to come - even for a play or something. We're not looking to trick people but we're looking to take away something that would be a stumbling block to them."

 

[Jerome]

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

[Joshua Patrick]

It didn't look that way. Also did you know a common view in Jesus' day of totally assimulating Torah (Hebrew law) in to your everyday life and spiritual practice was to say "eating torah"? When John 6 reviews Jesus statement it could be very well he meant "gnaw" me. Or eat me or my teachings and apply it your life. Which in the common vernacular would mean ingest everything I've said and taught.

Eat my flesh, and drink my blood, means to eat his teachings and apply it in your life?, I doubt it my friend.

"‘I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.’ The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, ‘How can this man give us his flesh to eat?’" (John 6:51–52).

The Jews, of the time of Jesus, clearly understood what he was saying, that is why the Jews said "How can this man give us his flesh to eat". If they took as symbolically for his law, it would of been no issue, and carried on listening, but some of his OWN disciples left him, when he said this.

The Greek word used for "eats" (trogon) is very blunt and has the sense of "chewing" or "gnawing." This is not the language of metaphor.


What was symbolically for his law?

The Messiah, brought and was expected to bring a renewed Torah, his Torah. Paul may be alluding to this in the letter to the Galatians when he speaks of the "law of Christ" (Gal 6:2)

The Old Torah was referred to as "The Yoke", we can see an example of this when Paul stated in chapter 5 of Galatians: " For freedom Christ has set up free; stand fast therefore, and do not submit again to the yoke of slavery"

(Matthew 11:28-30) "Come to me, all you that labour, and are burdened, and I will refresh you.Take up my yoke upon you, and learn of me, because I am meek, and humble of heart: and you shall find rest to your souls." - The Jews, used to refer the torah as the "yoke of the law". Jesus's law, is meek, and humble and at heart.

"Or eat me or my teachings and apply it your life. Which in the common vernacular would mean ingest everything I've said and taught"

- Jesus clearly taught, his Torah(his teachings,his law) was "Take up my yoke upon you, and learn of me, because I am meek, and humble of heart: and you shall find rest to your souls." He did not refer to the flesh and blood, as his Torah or laws.

 

[annsni]

In the interest of full disclosure:

"...because "Baptist" has SUCH a negative connotation here on Long Island. Seriously, we've spoken to people who would have come to our church but when they heard it was "Baptist" (we're not part of any convention, however - fully independent), they refused to come - even for a play or something. We're not looking to trick people but we're looking to take away something that would be a stumbling block to them."

Yes, and?? We don't have "Baptist" in our name. But if we were asked what denomination we are, we're Baptist. You can look at my profile and see what I am.