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Catholics, and the Eucharist.

Agnus_Dei

New Member
We totally believe the bread and wine, turn into the flesh, and blood of Jesus Christ, when the priest calls down the Holy Spirit, within the Holy Sacrifice.
hi Joshua...I'm an Orthodox Christian been through a year of Orthodox Catechesis and also took all the classes required to become a Roman Catholic through RCIA...

as an Orthodox Christian we to hold to the real presence, but let me ask you this question...

In the Roman Catholic Church, who effects the Sacraments...is it the priest or the Holy Spirit?
 

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
hi Joshua...I'm an Orthodox Christian been through a year of Orthodox Catechesis and also took all the classes required to become a Roman Catholic through RCIA...

as an Orthodox Christian we to hold to the real presence, but let me ask you this question...

In the Roman Catholic Church, who effects the Sacraments...is it the priest or the Holy Spirit?
I got this from a Catholic site.
In proceeding to verify the form, which is always made up of words, we may start from the dubitable fact, that Christ did not consecrate by the mere fiat of His omnipotence, which found no expression in articulate utterance, but by pronouncing the words of Institution: "This is my body . . . this is my blood", and that by the addition: "Do this for a commemoration of me", He commanded the Apostles to follow His example. Were the words of Institution a mere declarative utterance of the conversion, which might have taken place in the "benediction" unannounced and articulately unexpressed, the Apostles and their successors would, according to Christ's example and mandate, have been obliged to consecrate in this mute manner also, a consequence which is altogether at variance with the deposit of faith. It is true, that Pope Innocent III (De Sacro altaris myst., IV, vi) before his elevation to the pontificate did hold the opinion, which later theologians branded as "temerarious", that Christ consecrated without words by means of the mere "benediction". Not many theologians, however, followed him in this regard, among the few being Ambrose Catharinus, Cheffontaines, and Hoppe, by far the greater number preferring to stand by the unanimous testimony of the Fathers. Meanwhile, Innocent III also insisted most urgently that at least in the case of the celebrating priest, the words of Institution were prescribed as the sacramental form. It was, moreover, not until its comparatively recent adherence in the seventeenth century to the famous "Confessio fidei orthodoxa" of Peter Mogilas (cf. Kimmel, "Monum. fidei eccl. orient.", Jena, 1850, I, p. 180), that the Schismatical Greek Church adopted the view, according to which the priest does not at all consecrate by virtue of the words of Institution, but only by means of the Epiklesis occurring shortly after them and expressing in the Oriental Liturgies a petition to the Holy Spirit, "that the bread and wine may be converted into the Body and Blood of Christ". Were the Greeks justified in maintaining this position, the immediate result would be, that the Latins who have no such thing as the Epiklesis in their present Liturgy, would possess neither the true Sacrifice of the Mass nor the Holy Eucharist. Fortunately, however, the Greeks can be shown the error of their ways from their own writings, since it can be proved, that they themselves formerly placed the form of Transubstantiation in the words of Institution. Not only did such renowned Fathers as Justin (First Apology 66), Irenæus (Against Heresies V.2.3), Gregory of Nyssa (The Great Catechism, no. 37), Chrysostom (Hom. i, de prod. Judæ, n. 6), and John Damascene (Exposition of the Faith IV.13) hold this view, but the ancient Greek Liturgies bear testimony to it, so that Cardinal Bessarion in 1439 at Florence called the attention of his fellow-countrymen to the fact, that as soon as the words of Institution have been pronounced, supreme homage and adoration are due to the Holy Eucharist, even though the famous Epiklesis follows some time after.....The objection that the mere historical recitation of the words of Institution taken from the narrative of the Last Supper possesses no intrinsic consecratory force, would be well founded, did the priest of the Latin Church merely intend by means of them to narrate some historical event rather than pronounce them with the practical purpose of effecting the conversion, or if he pronounced them in his own name and person instead of the Person of Christ, whose minister and instrumental cause he is. Neither of the two suppositions holds in the case of a priest who really intends to celebrate Mass...and so we regard the Epiklesis, both in point of liturgy and of time, as the significant connecting link, placed midway between the Consecration and the Communion in order to emphasize the part taken by the Holy Spirit in the Consecration of bread and wine, and, on the other hand, with the help of the same Holy Spirit to obtain the realization of the true Presence of the Body and Blood of Christ by their fruitful effects on both priest and people
 

Joshua Patrick

New Member
I'm not paranoid...and yes, he is proselytizing. Catholics are not allowed to join this board, those are the rules. If I wanted to read RCC theology I would go to one of your other boards...and your false accusation that I "misrepresent" the RCC faith is quite unfounded and false.

And, no, I do not want to hear what a Catholic "thinks about that". I've been there an done that as my wife's entire family is RCC and I have a good handle on what that "denomination" (regardless of what you want to believe, that is what it is) teaches.

The Catholic Church is not a denomination, therefore I cannot class it as a denomination.

"If I wanted to read RCC theology I would go to one of your other boards...and your false accusation that I "misrepresent" the RCC faith is quite unfounded and false.
" - Big claims, yet you provide no theological discussion, nor attempt to counter the claims I put across, but present yourself in a negative manner, using primitive words and insulting me by claiming "the RCC faith is quite unfounded and false.".

God Bless.
 

Joshua Patrick

New Member
hi Joshua...I'm an Orthodox Christian been through a year of Orthodox Catechesis and also took all the classes required to become a Roman Catholic through RCIA...

as an Orthodox Christian we to hold to the real presence, but let me ask you this question...

In the Roman Catholic Church, who effects the Sacraments...is it the priest or the Holy Spirit?

I know what Orthodox Christians teach, your even more devoutly honoured to the blessed mother, than Catholics!" :)

The Holy Catholic Church, class the Orthodox Church, as the "right lung of Christianity".

Talks are being very successful between, the Patriarch's and the Pope, for our Church to combined back into one. These are very exciting times, the Holy Spirit is truly at work! The Patriarch of Bulgaria, as already come back into union with the Seat of Peter! :)

In the Roman Catholic Church, who effects the Sacraments...is it the priest or the Holy Spirit?

The priest, calls down the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit, changes them into the flesh and blood of Christ.

God Bless Brother!
 

Steven2006

New Member
The question was asked earlier why, as a catholic you joined a baptist board. I may have missed you answer, but I to am curious what is your motive for joining and posting here?
 

lori4dogs

New Member
The question was asked earlier why, as a catholic you joined a baptist board. I may have missed you answer, but I to am curious what is your motive for joining and posting here?

Hmmm-Just curious, would you ask the same question of a Methodist, Presbyterian, etc. joining this board? Why so much paranoia over a Catholic? Why is it only Catholics are presumed to be here to proselytize and not to be here to defend their faith? It is a big assumption. Webdog already insists that Joshua is here to proselytize and is jumping to a conclusion without any basis for it.
 
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annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Hmmm-Just curious, would you ask the same question of a Methodist, Presbyterian, etc. joining this board? Why so much paranoia over a Catholic? Why is it only Catholics are presumed to be here to proselytize and not to be here to defend their faith? It is a big assumption. Webdog already insists that Joshua is here to proselytize and is jumping to a conclusion without any basis for it.

Because Catholics and Baptist believe different things - and this is a Baptist board.
 

Joshua Patrick

New Member
The question was asked earlier why, as a catholic you joined a baptist board. I may have missed you answer, but I to am curious what is your motive for joining and posting here?

I have a passion for apologetics. Also we are called to spread the truth's of the Gospel. Afterall the Bible is a product of the Catholic Church, we did create the bible. Therefore it is a rightful duty to, interpret the bible, and preach what the Apostle's and the early Christians taught.

I also class myself as abit of a theologian, I'm debating to take it up in University next year, or do Computer Science. I like to see other people's views on certain area's, so far nobody as shown me, why baptist do not believe in the real presence of the Eucharist.

God Bless.
 

Steven2006

New Member
Hmmm-Just curious, would you ask the same question of a Methodist, Presbyterian, etc. joining this board? Why so much paranoia over a Catholic?

I am not paranoid at all, just curious as to the true motive. I wouldn't think it would be such a big deal to give an honest answer to a direct question.

As far as would I ask it of a Methodist etc.., well probably no. I might be wrong here as I am not an expert on this site and all of the rules, but I get the impression from other posts that it is against the rules for a catholic to join. If that is the rule, it naturally raises the question, I asked doesn't it?

Now I don't know the reason behind the rule, and I am not even sure I would agree with such a rule without knowing the reasoning behind, it, but that it another question entirely.
 

Steven2006

New Member
I have a passion for apologetics. Also we are called to spread the truth's of the Gospel. Afterall the Bible is a product of the Catholic Church, we did create the bible. Therefore it is a rightful duty to, interpret the bible, and preach what the Apostle's and the early Christians taught.

I also class myself as abit of a theologian, I'm debating to take it up in University next year, or do Computer Science. I like to see other people's views on certain area's, so far nobody as shown me, why baptist do not believe in the real presence of the Eucharist.

God Bless.

Thank you for your reply.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
I have a passion for apologetics. Also we are called to spread the truth's of the Gospel. Afterall the Bible is a product of the Catholic Church, we did create the bible. Therefore it is a rightful duty to, interpret the bible, and preach what the Apostle's and the early Christians taught.
The Bible is not a product of the RCC. That myth is as far from the truth as one can get.
 

targus

New Member
I might be wrong here as I am not an expert on this site and all of the rules, but I get the impression from other posts that it is against the rules for a catholic to join. If that is the rule, it naturally raises the question, I asked doesn't it?

Now I don't know the reason behind the rule, and I am not even sure I would agree with such a rule without knowing the reasoning behind, it, but that it another question entirely.

As far as I can tell - it is an unpublished rule that Catholics are not permitted to join.

I think that this sort of problem could be avoided if the no Catholic rule were to be posted on the registration page.

What is the point in hiding the fact that Catholics are not welcome here?
 
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lori4dogs

New Member
Lots of people seem to be dodging the question. "Why don't Baptist believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.?"
 

lori4dogs

New Member
As far as I can tell - it is an unpublished rule that Catholics are not permitted to join.

I think that this sort of problem could be avoided if the no Catholic rule were to posted on the registration page.

What is the point in hiding the fact that Catholics are not welcome here?

This question comes up time and time again. Don't expect a clear answer.
Non-Christians are allowed to come to this board and join, but not Catholics. Go figure!
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
So do Methodists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, etc.

Not in the foundations. Before we attended this church, we were Presbyterians and my husband was an elder on the Session. Before that - before we were married - he was Methodist.

But if anyone from those denominations came here joining, I would be happy to ask the same question. When I was Presbyterian, I'd definitely identify just about completely with the Baptist church - except we did baptize infants (but not as a sacrament but more as a dedication of the child and the child would have to participate in believer's baptism when they were saved). So I would have been happy to say "I joined here because I believe the same as you and would like fellowship and such."
 

lori4dogs

New Member
Not in the foundations. Before we attended this church, we were Presbyterians and my husband was an elder on the Session. Before that - before we were married - he was Methodist.

But if anyone from those denominations came here joining, I would be happy to ask the same question. When I was Presbyterian, I'd definitely identify just about completely with the Baptist church - except we did baptize infants (but not as a sacrament but more as a dedication of the child and the child would have to participate in believer's baptism when they were saved). So I would have been happy to say "I joined here because I believe the same as you and would like fellowship and such."

I've never heard of a Presbyterian church that did not baptize infants as a sacrament and did so as a dedication only to re-baptize them later as an adult. What Presbyterian synod does that? Just curious.
 

Joshua Patrick

New Member
The Bible is not a product of the RCC. That myth is as far from the truth as one can get.


Hello friend! :wavey:

For the first 300 years of Christianity, there was no Bible as we know it today.

Christians had the Old Testament Septuagint, and literally hundreds of other books from which to choose. The Catholic Church realized early on that she had to decide which of these books were inspired and which ones weren't.

Several Church Councils or Synods, were convened to deal with the matter, notably, Rome in 382, Hippo in 393, and Carthage in 397 and 419.

He debates sometimes became bitter on both sides. One of the most famous was between St. Jerome, who felt the seven books were not canonical, and St. Augustine who said they were.

There are always three sides to every story, this side, that side, and the side of truth. Whether Jerome's position, or Augustine's position was the correct position, had to be settled by a third party, and that third party was the Catholic Church.

The Pope stepped in to settle the matter. In concurrence with the opinion of St. Augustine, and being prompted by the Holy Spirit, Pope St. Damasus I, at the Council of Rome in 382, issued a decree appropriately called, "The Decree of Damasus", in which he listed the canonical books of both the Old and New Testaments. He then asked St. Jerome to use this canon and to write a new Bible translation which included an Old Testament of 46 books, which were all in the Septuagint, and a New Testament of 27 books.

Rome had spoken, the issue was settled.


St. Jerome acquiesced under obedience (Hebrews 13:17) and began the translation, and completed it in 404 A.D.. In 405, his new Latin Vulgate* was published for the first time.

A full explanation of the history of the bible, and how it was compiled is here;

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080928064041AATOZUD

If you have another idea, how the bible was compiled, please feel free.
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I've never heard of a Presbyterian church that did not baptize infants as a sacrament and did so as a dedication only to re-baptize them later as an adult. What Presbyterian synod does that? Just curious.

Anne .... I would have to agree with Lori on this one. I was a Presbyterian & we always followed the Westminster confessions of Faith....even PC USA follows it. Are you now Reformed Baptists?
 
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