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Catholics, and the Eucharist.

targus

New Member
No real baptist of any man made affiliation will tell you you need to be water baptised to be saved, they will just say you need to go to church and do it, meanwhile disagreeing about how that is done. Stick with the Holy Bible, it doesn't disagree with God or itself.

And how do you know that is the correct interpertation?

Other equally committed Christians read Scripture trusting in the Holy Spirit for guidance and come to a different interpretation concerning the necessity of baptism.

How do know that yours is the correct interpretation?

Don't argue about baptism - just tell me how you know that you are right.
 

Grace&Truth

New Member
I am however showing you how scripture supports the idea of Eucharist. Which is why I showed the verses I did. Note by quoting Hebrews 5-10 You've shown you don't understand the operation of Eucharist how the Roman Catholics and the Orthodox understand it. The function of the Eucharist is not to again sacrifice Jesus but for the congregants to participate in that one sacrifice 2,000 years ago. The fact that they eat it shows not only their understand of what Jesus is saying at the Last supper but its connection to the OT Thanks offering as I showed in Leviticus. I think with many protestant theologians is that we are linear in our thinking God is outside time and space and thus our theology should show it. But the operation is not to sacrifice Jesus again but to up hold that original sacrifice and make present that one sacrifice outside of time and space.

Yes I do understand what they teach concerning the Eucharist.

From "The New Saint Joseph Baltimore Catechism"
The Holy Eucharist is a sacrament and a sacrifice. In the Holy Eucharist, under the appearance of bread and wine, the Lord Jesus is contained, offered and received. Pg. 162

Christ gives us His own body and blood in the Holy Eucharist:
First, to be offered as a sacrifice commemorationg and renewing for all time the sacrifice of the cross.
Second, to be received by the faithful in Holy Communion.
Third, to remain ever on our altars as proof of His love for us, and to be worshiped by us. Pg.166


Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Heb 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


Now according to the above verses Jesus is not continuing to be sacrificed, or offered and He is not ever on their altars.
 

Zenas

Active Member
Grace&Truth, what is your take on Malachi 1:11?
"For from the rising of the sun even to its setting, My name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense is going to be offered to My name, and a grain offering that is pure; for My name will be great among the nations," says the LORD of hosts.
 

Max Kennedy

New Member
And how do you know that is the correct interpertation?

Other equally committed Christians read Scripture trusting in the Holy Spirit for guidance and come to a different interpretation concerning the necessity of baptism.

How do know that yours is the correct interpretation?

Don't argue about baptism - just tell me how you know that you are right.

I gave my honest warning. If you say 2+2 = 5 and I say 2+2 = 4, reality determines the truth, and
trying to do something with 2+2=5 will cause you harm. You may not have the same understanding
or interpretation, but that does not change the fact that you will be mistaken.

I am not a scorner. God is, and salvation is His. If you believe something contrary to Him, He will correct you.
If you do not believe this, you aren't His - its just head knowledge to you.

God corrects me all the time, because a Father corrects his son. If you are scorning, you
should repent, because I detect something here that I needed to get over a long time
ago.
 
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Melanie

Active Member
Site Supporter
"The priest brings Christ down from heaven, and renders Him present on our altar as the eternal Victim for the sins of man - NOT ONCE BUT A THOUSAND TIMES! The priest speaks and lo! Christ, the eternal and omnipotent God, bows his head in humble obedience to the priest's command"

The Faith of Millions: The Credentials of the Catholic Religion ,
Father John O'Brien, The Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur

http://books.google.com/books?id=O-...&resnum=3&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false

Christ is not the eternal victim, and neither am I.


Blahhh, what a peurile interpretation.....
 

targus

New Member
I gave my honest warning. If you say 2+2 = 5 and I say 2+2 = 4, reality determines the truth, and trying to do something with 2+2=5 will cause you harm. You may not have the same understanding or interpretation, but that does not change the fact that you will be mistaken.

That doesn't answer the question.

How do you know that your interpretation of any particular part of Scripture is correct?

BTW - It's funny that you use the word "warning" not "answer".

Are you suggesting that you have some power here?

Do you think that you control God and have the ability to hand out punishment?

Delusions of diety?
 

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
I am however showing you how scripture supports the idea of Eucharist. Which is why I showed the verses I did. Note by quoting Hebrews 5-10 You've shown you don't understand the operation of Eucharist how the Roman Catholics and the Orthodox understand it. The function of the Eucharist is not to again sacrifice Jesus but for the congregants to participate in that one sacrifice 2,000 years ago. The fact that they eat it shows not only their understand of what Jesus is saying at the Last supper but its connection to the OT Thanks offering as I showed in Leviticus. I think with many protestant theologians is that we are linear in our thinking God is outside time and space and thus our theology should show it. But the operation is not to sacrifice Jesus again but to up hold that original sacrifice and make present that one sacrifice outside of time and space.

Yes I do understand what they teach concerning the Eucharist.

From "The New Saint Joseph Baltimore Catechism"
The Holy Eucharist is a sacrament and a sacrifice. In the Holy Eucharist, under the appearance of bread and wine, the Lord Jesus is contained, offered and received. Pg. 162

Christ gives us His own body and blood in the Holy Eucharist:
First, to be offered as a sacrifice commemorationg and renewing for all time the sacrifice of the cross.
Second, to be received by the faithful in Holy Communion.
Third, to remain ever on our altars as proof of His love for us, and to be worshiped by us. Pg.166


Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Heb 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


Now according to the above verses Jesus is not continuing to be sacrificed, or offered and He is not ever on their altars.

Again I must state that Catholics do not believe Jesus is being sacrificed again. We must get passed that point before we can have a serious discussion.
1362 The Eucharist is the memorial of Christ's Passover, the making present and the sacramental offering of his unique sacrifice, in the liturgy of the Church which is his Body. In all the Eucharistic Prayers we find after the words of institution a prayer called the anamnesis or memorial.

1363 In the sense of Sacred Scripture the memorial is not merely the recollection of past events but the proclamation of the mighty works wrought by God for men.184 In the liturgical celebration of these events, they become in a certain way present and real. This is how Israel understands its liberation from Egypt: every time Passover is celebrated, the Exodus events are made present to the memory of believers so that they may conform their lives to them.

1364 In the New Testament, the memorial takes on new meaning. When the Church celebrates the Eucharist, she commemorates Christ's Passover, and it is made present the sacrifice Christ offered once for all on the cross remains ever present.185 "As often as the sacrifice of the Cross by which 'Christ our Pasch has been sacrificed' is celebrated on the altar, the work of our redemption is carried out."186 ...The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross...The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice:
From the catachism based on the Vatican II council. There is an emphasis on making present the original sacrifice rather than re-sacrifice. Big difference in theology. Once this is understood the verses in Hebrews become irrelevant because they apply to a re-sacrifice and maintaining judaic sacrificial law. All of that has been completed.
 

chadman

New Member
Than your witness will be faulty, and Jesus Christ may not choose to witness through you, if you say water baptism saves.

Maxman - do you read my responses? I just said (cuz I knew what you were thinking) that water baptism didn't explicitly save. Again...my quote:
I did not say water baptism saves you did I. No I didn't I said it was more than 'nothing'.

I said it's in the Bible very clearly - and it's more than nothing. Why can't we take the Bible as a whole - and apply it as a whole. Why all the slicing and dicing?
 

chadman

New Member
How do you know that your interpretation of any particular part of Scripture is correct?

Can I try this one? I'll be brutally honest as others around here seem to live in a fairy tale at times.

There are about 3 possibilities I can come up with:

1. As a Southern Baptist (fundie/evangelical/protestant/etc, etc) - Well, if we are right - and we are - then that means only one thing. We have the true interpretation from the Holy Spirit. The others well, they must not have. They have something else. They have inserted their predudices and mixed it somehow, and are missing the true interpretation. They can't all be right.

2. We are not sure we are right and that means we do not listen to the Holy Spirit well enough. We are guessing ok?

3. Out of the many versions of interpretation of Scriptures, we simply pick a version, and find as many scriptures as we can to support our version - and stick to it come heck or high water.
 

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
Can I try this one? I'll be brutally honest as others around here seem to live in a fairy tale at times.

There are about 3 possibilities I can come up with:

1. As a Southern Baptist (fundie/evangelical/protestant/etc, etc) - Well, if we are right - and we are - then that means only one thing. We have the true interpretation from the Holy Spirit. The others well, they must not have. They have something else. They have inserted their predudices and mixed it somehow, and are missing the true interpretation. They can't all be right.

2. We are not sure we are right and that means we do not listen to the Holy Spirit well enough. We are guessing ok?

3. Out of the many versions of interpretation of Scriptures, we simply pick a version, and find as many scriptures as we can to support our version - and stick to it come heck or high water.
:laugh: Yep thats is about it. And it goes for everyone. That is the real truth. And ultimately how do you distinguish what it is the Holy Spirit is saying apart from your own ability to reason?
 

chadman

New Member
And ultimately how do you distinguish what it is the Holy Spirit is saying apart from your own ability to reason?

You want another really honest answer? I wrestled with this for years. It comes down to this.

Emotion. A feeling. It comes down to an internal emotional feeling that one gets and thinks they recieved this form the Holy Spirit.

The only problem here as you know, is that then when I look around at everybody else, they have the same internal emotional response but a very different 'truth'.

Now let me be OBJECTIVE. I am objective enough to know, that I am of neccessity - SUBJECTIVE. Evidence shows that my method of obtaining that assurance of a truth - does not yield in any way consitent results when used across a large sample of poeple. So then objectively speaking I have a about a one in thousand chance of being right.

That feels really secure. :laugh:

PS. Just being honest guys - I am LONG past the days of deluding myself - it is what it is.

How do the rest of you folks KNOW you are right?
 

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
You want another really honest answer? I wrestled with this for years. It comes down to this.

Emotion. A feeling. It comes down to an internal emotional feeling that one gets and thinks they recieved this form the Holy Spirit.

The only problem here as you know, is that then when I look around at everybody else, they have the same internal emotional response but a very different 'truth'.

Now let me be OBJECTIVE. I am objective enough to know, that I am of neccessity - SUBJECTIVE. Evidence shows that my method of obtaining that assurance of a truth - does not yield in any way consitent results when used across a large sample of poeple. So then objectively speaking I have a about a one in thousand chance of being right.

That feels really secure. :laugh:

PS. Just being honest guys - I am LONG past the days of deluding myself - it is what it is.

How do the rest of you folks KNOW you are right?

No need to apologize.

Veritas.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
I know I'm right because my wife tells me I'l always right. Of course she does this while doing this... :rolleyes:

:)
 

Max Kennedy

New Member
:laugh: Yep thats is about it. And it goes for everyone. That is the real truth. And ultimately how do you distinguish what it is the Holy Spirit is saying apart from your own ability to reason?

If you can not distinguish the differenence between the Holy Spirit, and your own thinking, then I think you should reconsider whether you are hell bound or not. You need to be born again to be saved.

Witches and satanists recognize the difference between their own thinking and the devils they talk to. I'd say that is a good indication that you need to reconsider your destination. If you aren't born again by the Holy Spirit, you are not saved.
 

targus

New Member
If you can not distinguish the differenence between the Holy Spirit, and your own thinking, then I think you should reconsider whether you are hell bound or not. You need to be born again to be saved.

Witches and satanists recognize the difference between their own thinking and the devils they talk to. I'd say that is a good indication that you need to reconsider your destination. If you aren't born again by the Holy Spirit, you are not saved.

When the Holy Spirit speaks to you - do you hear a voice?
 

Matt Black

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
If you can not distinguish the differenence between the Holy Spirit, and your own thinking, then I think you should reconsider whether you are hell bound or not. You need to be born again to be saved.

Witches and satanists recognize the difference between their own thinking and the devils they talk to. I'd say that is a good indication that you need to reconsider your destination. If you aren't born again by the Holy Spirit, you are not saved.
OK then Max: you, reading your Bible with the help of the Holy Spirit, have come up with a different take on baptism than Grace&Truth, who also reads his/her Bible with the help of the Holy Spirit. Doubtless you will say that G&T is wrong and doubtless s/he will say the same of you. Now, the question for the rest of us in the class: how the heck are we meant to judge which of you is right? OR....maybe what you're doing is not the best way to do it....
 

Max Kennedy

New Member
When the Holy Spirit speaks to you - do you hear a voice?

Its deeper than that for me, and more from the heart. Its in the Spirit, and it never contradicts the Word of God, but the Spirit reminds us of the Word.

I also am aware of what wiccans and witches do, because I have heard the devil as well, tempting, but that is more mental.

And for those who are unbelievers, before you say he must be nuts, I had a genius IQ when tested as a child, and I am currently in a doctoral program. Also devils are fairly commonly recounted around the world in pagan religions, including voodoo, etc. Fyi I have an anthropology degree as an undergraduate.

Its possibly you might be hearing God the first way, but was not as aware of it. Our word "in spirat ion" is somewhat related, and comes deeper than in the mind.

A second thought on the two. We are one with God, and if you are actually one, God is part of you. The second seems to be outside of you - which I mention because the devil likes to pretend to be an angel of light or God sometime, but he is always outside you - even being "in your mind, thoughts, or hearing" is not the same thing at all.

God is love. He who loves, is in God, and God is in him (1 John 4:16). God is in you. He is love. Devils are not part of your spirit, and they hate and try to possess (see all the voodoo beliefs in example).

That anyway was my attempt to explain how God speaks in the spirit, vs something that seems more like a mental voice. If it is a mental voice, its not the same thing as being one with God. Mental voices by defintion always come from outside.

(FYI - the bible shows God speaking in a number of ways - and you can read about it).
 
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