Catholics Visiting The Baptist Forum Part 2

In "fact"??
You didn't prove your hypothesis. You simply quoted a guy who believes them to be false.

I can quote TEN guys who say Scripture is false - but that doesn't "prove" anything . . .

 

God does not need to turn bread into flesh or wine into blood for a person to remember Jesus atoning sacrifice. Transubstantiation is an alchemy term that applies to the Roman Catholic mysticism never taught by Christ Jesus or his Apostles.

 

God doesn't "need" to do anything.

He doesn't nee YOU and He doesn't need me - and He certainly didn't need to come down here and be nailed to a cross and die an agonizing death.

God does because God WILLS - not because YOU think it's a good idea.
God knows we are physical people with tangible needs - so He gives us tangible means to impart His grace.
WATER Baptism.
The EUCHARIST.
Anointing the sick with OIL.

When Christ healed the Blind Man - did He "Need" to use mud - or was it simply a tangible means for a physical people??
STUDY your Bible . . .

 

Great, so God had no need to be an alchemist at the Last Supper. Instead, God showed how the Passover Lamb was fulfilled in Christ, while you imagine it's a treatise on alchemy.

 

Ok, then He would be advocating metaphorical cannibalism.

 

The Holy Spirit doesn do alchemy, which is why the Roman Catholic stance on communion is so wrong.

 

Do you have any understanding of the Seder meal? If you did, you would understand what Jesus is doing at the last supper.

 

Baptists refuse to accept any teaching and doctrine that is not supported by the Canon of scriptures, such as most of the theology of Rome, as there is no support in the inspired books for most of them!

 

What happened in the Upper Room on Holy Thursday was the new Moses, Jesus Christ, fulfilling the type / figure of the old covenant of Moses in Exodus with the new reality of the Eucharistic sacrifice...


Exodus 24 (The figure) ---> The hill, the altar, the twelve, the blood, Moses, the covenant, the eating the drinking and communion with God ---> Points to the reality of the new now being fulfilled by Jesus Christ ---> The Upper Room, the altar, the twelve, the blood, the New Moses, the new covenant, the eating and drinking and communion with God

If the Eucharist is not the actual body and blood of Christ, then this would be the first instance in all of Scripture where the figure of something would have surpassed the reality.

 

Jesus is the new Adam, not the new Moses.
Jesus fulfills the atonement for his chosen people. Jesus foreshadows his atonement for his people when he changes the Seder meal so that he represents the Lamb that was slain so that his chosen people can remember as they go through the wilderness and enter the promised land.

 

I have been asking you to prove a positive. To state it this way, what is the evidence that any of the letters or part of any of those letters are quoted in the second century. There is a reason for your belief in those letters attributed to Ignatius of Antioch.

 

It would not be any such thing. Jesus' teaching He is the true manna which has come down from Heaven is not to be confused with His teaching of His death on the cross is represented in the Passover showing He is the true Passover.

 

The Sacrifice which concluded on the Cross began the night before in the Upper Room.

 

I always found it odd that those who profess to believe that God was present in a box making its way across the wilderness, took the form of a cloud, took the form of a dove, and even became an actual man, entering into His creation as a baby, cannot bring themselves to believe that this same God would be present amongst His people in the Eucharist.

 

Again – the Epistles of Ignatius were never called into question until recently because they are simply far too important to the development of Christendom. Protestant scholars try to debunk them as “forgeries” like they do every other EFC writing that supports Catholic doctrine.

You have presented ONE such objection to these writings – but the weight of scholarship rests with the fact that the Epistles of Ignatius were genuine. I can produce MANY sources that claim they are genuine - for example:
- St. Ignatius of Antioch: The Epistles - Paul A. Boer Sr.
- The Letters of St. Ignatius of Antioch - by St. Ignatius Of Antioch, Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, D. P. Curtin
- Ignatius of Antioch: Estimated Range of Dating: 105-115 A.D. - Ignatius of Antioch
- St. Ignatius of Antioch - Saint Ignatius of Antioch | Biography, Writings, & Martyrdom

Although there are some spurious writings attributed to Ignatius (Epistles to the Tarsians, Antiochans, Philippians, et al) – the Seven Epistles he wrote on the way to his martyrdom were NEVER called into question until recent Protestant scholarship had problems with the doctrines in them.

So – once again – the onus is on YOU to prove they were forgeries -= not ME to prove what has always been held throughout the centuries as fact.

 

We must remember that Jesus ATE THE PASSOVER before introducing Communion. He spoke of the bread & drink, saying, "THIS is My flesh...THIS is My blood...". But at the time he had no wounds & all His blood.

His disciples, who'd been puzzled by Hie earlier reference to His own flesh & blood, now knew what He'd meant, that one must have FAITH in Him & believe He is whom He said He is.

The bread & drink remained bread & drink at the "Last Supper", & remain so in our Communion, which Jesus said to do IN REMEMBRANCE of Him.

 

I find it odd that you would eat human flesh and drink human blood and then proclaim that the action caused God to impart his grace upon you.

 

Then do us a favor and produce ONE SINGLE Early Church teaching to that effect.

Show me ONE writing from the Early Church that agrees with the Protestant assertion that the Eucharist was merely symbolic.

Do that - and I will leave the Catholic Church today and join YOUR sect.