Cause and Effect/Conditions of Salvation

[Jedi Knight]

HP said "God being Sovereign can do that……or is this yet one other thing a Sovereign God cannot do"
Can a Soverign God lie? Shall NEVER perish?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JK: Watching too much Dancing with the Stars? lol You tried to point out to us something YOU was wrong about.....so you now avoid Shall NEVER perish text? Come now lets be reasonable.

HP: I am not avoiding anything. I simply was not thinking of that text when I posted. I was right about the text I had in mind, and as I recall you never posted a reference anyway. If you desire to be understood correctly, post a specific reference next time. It you desire to address that issue in particular, start a thread concerning it. If you want to discuss the issue at hand on this thread, address the questions and subject of the OP.

Tell us JK, are there any conditions to salvation?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

No, God cannot lie, but He can breach or revoke a promise without lying.

 

[Jedi Knight]

HP: I am not avoiding anything. I simply was not thinking of that text when I posted. I was right about the text I had in mind, and as I recall you never posted a reference anyway. If you desire to be understood correctly, post a specific reference next time. It you desire to address that issue in particular, start a thread concerning it. If you want to discuss the issue at hand on this thread, address the questions and subject of the OP.

Tell us JK, are there any conditions to salvation?

Well I thought you knew your Bible well enough for me not to post scripture reference. My Bad!:laugh: DHK did post it right after so you would not get confused.....so whats the problem? I see you might need to meditate on it "John 10:28" and see if you might change your view before you change your tactic!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Tell us JK, are there any conditions to salvation?

 

[Jedi Knight]

Tell us JK, are there any conditions to salvation?

I am waiting for you to give a "right" answer for you incorrect answer from before. Please don't ask if you cannot finish what you started.:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JK, I told you the verse that came to mind when you said what you said, I recognized that you quoted the verse you say you had in mind correctly, I said I was sorry. Now if that is not good enough for you I know not what could be. This discussion is about conditions of salvation primarily, and if you have nothing to offer concerning the topic of the OP or are ashamed or afraid to do so, find a thread that wets your whistle.

Are there any conditions to salvation JK?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK has been one in the past to make the claim that salvation has no conditions. DHK also tells us we need to accept the gift of salvation. Tell us DHK why acceptance of a gift is not a condition of receiving it? Could it be that in reality you believe our acceptance or rejection has nothing whatsoever to do with salvation?

 

[Amy.G]

No, God cannot lie, but He can breach or revoke a promise without lying.

No. God does not break His covenants.

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 18 provides the example given by Christ of "forgiveness revoked"

John 15:1-6 gives the example provided by Christ of "branches in Me" that are "removed" and cast into the fire.

Romans 11 gives the warning via the writing of Paul "you should fear for you stand only by your faith - if He did not spare them neither will He spare you".

The references keep going - but you get the general idea.

Of course there is no such doctrine as "forgiveness revoked." It is a unique "Bob Ryan" doctrine
.

Oh "good" we get to look at the Bible talking about forgiveness revoked.

Matt 18
32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.

My friends - Bible study just does not get any easier than that!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

If you knew by allowing your child to ride the bike your child would be killed, would you still allow your child to ride the bike?

:jesus:

If God KNEW Lucifer would fall and become the devil - would God have made Lucifer a "robot" instead?

Are you sure you thought that one through??

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

For every effect there is said to be a cause. If one is saved there must be a cause. If God is the sole cause, and no conditions are in effect, God must of necessity be the sole cause of salvation. If God is the sole cause of salvation, man plays no other part than a lucky recipient of salvation, and those that are lost are lost for a lack of being chosen to salvation. If God is the sole cause of salvation, He of necessity would be the sole cause of those not receiving salvation. In any event, logic demands that double predestination rules, just as Calvin clearly understood it to be so.

Indeed - unconditional election turns into "arbitrary selection" :laugh:

But so much for the traditions of man.

in Romans 2:11-13 we are told that "God is not partial" to one human vs another. No "abritrary selection" with God!!

Matt 23 "How I WANTED to save your children... but YOU would not!"

2 Pet 3 "God is not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance".

John 12:32 Christ "DRAWS ALL" unto Him!

1John 2:2 - Christ "is the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD"

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

HP: I was right about the text I had in mind,

Depends on the version.

KJV....For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

NLT....
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

NIV...“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,* that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

ESV...“For God so loved the world,* that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

NASB.....
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

ASV...
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.

The point remains that you said there was a distinct difference. Care to explain this distinct difference?

Now you are in a pickle!

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

If God KNEW Lucifer would fall and become the devil - would God have made Lucifer a "robot" instead?

Are you sure you thought that one through??

in Christ,

Bob

I am on my chess game :thumbs:

Just waiting for your answer (Hint: asking a question is not answering a question)

Care to answer?

If you knew by allowing your child to ride the bike your child would be killed, would you still allow your child to ride the bike?

:jesus:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: If you knew by allowing your child to ride the bike your child would be killed, would you still allow your child to ride the bike?

HP: If a frog had wings he wouldn’t bump his rear every time he jumps. You are asking a stupid question for our foreknowledge is not infinite. Besides. riding a bicycle was not the goal of God creating man Steaver. Since your question involves absolute infinite foreknowledge, you need to reserve such questions for God.

By the way, are you suggesting that if God knew Satan and man would fall He would not or should not have created man or Satan? Why don’t you answer your own question for the list so we can gain from your superior insight? If you do not have an answer for your question to us and my question to you, what is your point?

 

[billwald]

>Indeed - unconditional election turns into "arbitrary selection"

Does it matter if the null position is "elect?" and people must opt out to avoid their being saved? In other words, is there any theological implication to the statement of Lot's wife, "Curse God and die?"

 

[Amy.G]

>Indeed - unconditional election turns into "arbitrary selection"

Does it matter if the null position is "elect?" and people must opt out to avoid their being saved? In other words, is there any theological implication to the statement of Lot's wife, "Curse God and die?"

That was Job's wife. And it has nothing to do with this conversation.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy, what about you? Are there any conditions man must fulfill to be saved?

 

[BobRyan]

Allowing "for evil" is like saying "I showed my child how to ride the bike - but I am allowing for the condiition that they just might fall a few times while riding that bike

Thus to "allow for a condition" in which they might fall -- by not physically putting your hand on the bike and never letting them ride the bike alone - is not the same thing as "making them fall".

The parent always wants the child to grow and learn.

The parent knows this will not happen if you treat the child like a toy doll and never let him/her do anything on their own.

Originally Posted by steaver
If you knew by allowing your child to ride the bike your child would be killed, would you still allow your child to ride the bike?

If God KNEW Lucifer would fall and become the devil - would God have made Lucifer a "robot" instead?

Are you sure you thought that one through??

I am on my chess game :thumbs:

Just waiting ...

Enjoy the game!

My post is for the readers - the point I raised will be apparent to many Bible students -- (but you probably already knew that.:type: )

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

>Indeed - unconditional election turns into "arbitrary selection"

Does it matter if the null position is "elect?" and people must opt out to avoid their being saved? In other words, is there any theological implication to the statement of Lot's wife, "Curse God and die?"

The default position being that God is calling you as the elect to be saved, that God has died for your sins, that God's Holy Spirit is convicting you of sin and righteousness and judgment - and that He does this for ALL.

In John 1 - Jesus is "The light that coming into the world enlightens EVERY man"

In Rev 3 "I stand at the door and knock - if ANYONE hears my voice and opens the door -- I WILL come in"

As you say - the individual would have to say "no to God"

Thus this is not a case of arbitrary selection at all. God is reaching out to ALL "I will draw ALL unto Me" John 12:32.

But ALL do not choose to accept.

in Christ,

Bob