Cause and Effect/Conditions of Salvation

[steaver]

HP: If a frog had wings he wouldn’t bump his rear every time he jumps. You are asking a stupid question for our foreknowledge is not infinite. Besides. riding a bicycle was not the goal of God creating man Steaver. Since your question involves absolute infinite foreknowledge, you need to reserve such questions for God.

By the way, are you suggesting that if God knew Satan and man would fall He would not or should not have created man or Satan? Why don’t you answer your own question for the list so we can gain from your superior insight? If you do not have an answer for your question to us and my question to you, what is your point?

Giving up soon? I thought you and Bob would know the answer. It isn't too hard if you think about it.

If you knew by allowing your child to ride the bike your child would be killed, would you still allow your child to ride the bike?

Think about the question. (Hint: God is omnipotent)

:thumbsup:

 

[Jedi Knight]

Tell us JK, are there any conditions to salvation?

Did Jesus say... "You choose me,I did not choose you" ? No No No... I will reiterate what the Master teacher said, "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME,BUT I HAVE CHOSEN YOU". I think even a child can get that!

 

[BobRyan]

God "chose" to "so love the World" -- yes "really"! (And that is where 4 and 5 point Calvinism falls apart)

In the Gospels Christ "Chose" the disciples - and then they had to choose if they wanted to accept. Being chosen for a specific role in ministry - is very different from being loved by God because God CHOSE to "so love the WORLD" that He gave His son as "The Atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD".

God CHOSE to take that path. Thus He CHOOSES to "Stand at the door and knock - if ANYONE hears His voice and OPENS the door - He will come in"

It all starts with God CHOOSING - we all agree.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan

Allowing "for evil" is like saying "I showed my child how to ride the bike - but I am allowing for the condiition that they just might fall a few times while riding that bike

Thus to "allow for a condition" in which they might fall -- by not physically putting your hand on the bike and never letting them ride the bike alone - is not the same thing as "making them fall".

The parent always wants the child to grow and learn.

The parent knows this will not happen if you treat the child like a toy doll and never let him/her do anything on their own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by steaver
If you knew by allowing your child to ride the bike your child would be killed, would you still allow your child to ride the bike?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob


If God KNEW Lucifer would fall and become the devil - would God have made Lucifer a "robot" instead?

Are you sure you thought that one through??

Giving up soon? I thought you and Bob would know the answer.

Just trying to give you time to think through the problem.

Hint: God is "bigger" than "a god of robots".

But if "Calvinists were god" they would be hard pressed to do anything beyond "making robots" so that they could "be in charge" of what everyone did.

The lesson so difficult to learn within Calvinism is "it is really hard to BE God".

Thus free will is beyond the Calvinist model because Calvinism's highest goal is "robots".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

There is one split nanosecond when the Calvinist, or those leaning hard towards Calvinism, sometimes 'appear' to unlocked of the ‘robot’ syndrome, and for this split nanosecond somehow manages to make one single ‘free will choice’ of salvation………and then ZAP! Free will vanishes as fast as it mysteriously arrived. Saved for all eternity regardless of any thing they do from thence forward.

But then again, according to the manner in which JK and others interpret the Scripture, even then God in reality does the choosing and not man. Could it be that by sometimes mentioning that ‘flash’ or ‘milesecond’ of so-called 'free will' they in reality are using it more as a convenient sophistic tool than a firm belief? Could it be possible that the following statement is true? "Their freewill is no free will at all."

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

One of the main purposes of this thread was to allow those stating that there are no conditions to salvation explain how that can be possible apart from determinism. As a side issue, those claiming that there are no conditions yet say man must accept the free gift, how can one accept or reject a free gift without an act of the will?

This thread provides an excellent opportunity for some to do something positive, and show clearly how myself, or others, are misunderstanding them or misrepresenting their views when a comparison is drawn between their views and those of the deterministic system of Calvinism. I for one am listening and will consider carefully the presentation of your views. :wavey:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JK: Did Jesus say... "You choose me, I did not choose you" ? No No No... I will reiterate what the Master teacher said, "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME,BUT I HAVE CHOSEN YOU". I think even a child can get that!

HP: The real question remains JK, i.e., but how does God choose?? Is it arbitrary selection? If so, double predestination rules. Explain to the list how God chooses without double predestination being an unavoidable consequence.

If you asked me, I would say that God chooses who will be saved by those that He foreknows will voluntarily fulfill the stated conditions of salvation He has set forth. No double predestination or predestination of the damned here.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Read John 13:1 having LOVED HIS OWN which were in the world, HE LOVED THEM unto the end. John 17.. I DO NOT pray for the world,but for THOSE YOU HAVE GIVEN ME. Jesus never said you chose me because I first chose you.....rather you did not choose me.

 

[Jedi Knight]

HP: The real question remains JK, i.e., but how does God choose?? Is it arbitrary selection? If so, double predestination rules. Explain to the list how God chooses without double predestination being an unavoidable consequence.

If you asked me, I would say that God chooses who will be saved by those that He foreknows will voluntarily fulfill the stated conditions of salvation He has set forth. No double predestination or predestination of the damned here.

Double predestination? I don't find that in scripture. What I do find is that ALL have sinned and deserve Hell and seperation.....would you agree? Does ANYONE deserve Gods mercy? Yes or No? Is it fair and just if God leaves us in our sin and seperate us forever? If God wanted to show mercy on some does that make Him unjust?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JK, re-read post #68. Is that what you really wanted to say?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JK: Double predestination? I don't find that in scripture. What I do find is that ALL have sinned and deserve Hell and sepertion.....would you agree?

HP: Certainly, but if you hold to ‘all are born sinners’ (Original sin) you have God blaming men and punishing men for sin they in reality could not have avoided. Coming from your position of original sin they do not ‘deserve’ hell in the least. It was simply their fate. In that case, justice would demand they have an opportunity at mercy afforded them if God is going to punish them for such an unavoidable fate.

JK: Does ANYONE deserve Gods mercy? Yes or No?

HP: Deserve ‘mercy’ or an ‘opportunity to receive mercy?’ Again, that depends. If God is going to blame men for something they could not have avoided, justice would demand that all receive an opportunity to receive mercy.

JK: Is it fair and just if God leaves us in our sin and seperate us forever?

HP: Are you starting to see it depends on whether or not men are sinners due to their own formed selfish intents or whether they were created that way?

JK: If God wanted to show mercy on some does that make Him unjust?

HP: Again, that would depend on why they are sinners. If no other possibility existed other than to be a sinner, justice would demand an opportunity of salvation be afforded them. If they are willing rebels due to their own choices, having a contrary choice possible at least in the first portion of entering into a moral state, no. God in that case is under no obligation to provide an escape period.

Do you see how the notion of original sin, either in agreement to or in opposition of, drives the conclusions to your questions?

 

[Jedi Knight]

HP: Certainly, but if you hold to ‘all are born sinners’ (Original sin) you have God blaming men and punishing men for sin they in reality could not have avoided. Coming from your position of original sin they do not ‘deserve’ hell in the least. It was simply their fate. In that case, justice would demand they have an opportunity at mercy afforded them if God is going to punish them for such an unavoidable fate.


HP: Deserve ‘mercy’ or an ‘opportunity to receive mercy?’ Again, that depends. If God is going to blame men for something they could not have avoided, justice would demand that all receive an opportunity to receive mercy.




HP: Are you starting to see it depends on whether or not men are sinners due to their own formed selfish intents or whether they were created that way?



HP: Again, that would depend on why they are sinners. If no other possibility existed other than to be a sinner, justice would demand an opportunity of salvation be afforded them. If they are willing rebels due to their own choices, having a contrary choice possible at least in the first portion of entering into a moral state, no. God in that case is under no obligation to provide an escape period.

Do you see how the notion of original sin, either in agreement to or in opposition of, drives the conclusions to your questions?

You think God owes you is the sum of it all. You believe in Double Debt .....He owes you a chance,and He owes you IF you keep yourself saved untill the end. God's in debt to HP!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JK: You think God owes you is the sum of it all.

HP: No, God owes me nothing having created me with the power of contrary choice and a free will to choose.

 

[DHK]

HP: No, God owes me nothing having created me with the power of contrary choice and a free will to choose.

1. Do you keep your salvation?
2 Does God keep your salvation?

Think hard about those two questions before answering them. For if you keep your salvation then God's work is not sufficient enough on the cross to atone for your sins. You must help him by keeping it yourself.

If God keeps your salvation then salvation is all of God with no conditions attached.

If conditions are attached then salvation is works-based and not of grace through faith. It is either all of God or it is of man. You can't have it both.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: 1. Do you keep your salvation?
2 Does God keep your salvation?

HP: God does the keeping, but will not keep apart from my fulfilling the conditions He sets forth. Here is just one of Gods warning to you and me as Gentile believers: Ro 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Forgive me DHK, but I see your position as one of stark contradictions. You say there are no conditions to salvation and yet you say one must accept the gift. Can you tell us how accepting a gift is not meeting a condition? Would not you also say that if one rejects the gift one cannot be saved? Both accepting and rejecting involve the formation of an intent of the will by man, so why again is accepting a gift not the fulfilling of a condition in order to receive salvation?

 

[Jedi Knight]

HP: God does the keeping, but will not keep apart from my fulfilling the conditions He sets forth. Here is just one of Gods warning to you and me as Gentile believers: Ro 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Forgive me DHK, but I see your position as one of stark contradictions. You say there are no conditions to salvation and yet you say one must accept the gift. Can you tell us how accepting a gift is not meeting a condition? Would not you also say that if one rejects the gift one cannot be saved? Both accepting and rejecting involve the formation of an intent of the will by man, so why again is accepting a gift not the fulfilling of a condition in order to receive salvation?

"Ro 11:21" You should not to cut and paste like you are...... it does not apply to what your trying to prove. How about NEVER will I leave you!

 

[lori4dogs]

"Ro 11:21" You should not to cut and paste like you are...... it does not apply to what your trying to prove. How about NEVER will I leave you!

He won't leave us, but we can leave Him.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Lori, although I believe I know where you are coming from, and as such would basically agree with you, is there not clear promises of God that He can and will forsake those that forsake him?
De 31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.
De 31:17 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day,

Ro 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning,

1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

 

[steaver]

Just trying to give you time to think through the problem.

Hint: God is "bigger" than "a god of robots".

But if "Calvinists were god" they would be hard pressed to do anything beyond "making robots" so that they could "be in charge" of what everyone did.

The lesson so difficult to learn within Calvinism is "it is really hard to BE God".

Thus free will is beyond the Calvinist model because Calvinism's highest goal is "robots".

in Christ,

Bob

You and HP sure are fascinated with Calvin. I really sgould take the time to read his writings sometime.

Anyways, back to my question which you guys were so stumped on...

If you knew by allowing your child to ride the bike your child would be killed, would you still allow your child to ride the bike?

Well, if you were God, then yes.


God knew Adam would fall and die if He placed the forbidden tree within his reach, but God still placed the tree there and allowed Adam to eat and die.

Why?

God also knew He could raise Adam from the dead and restore Adam to an even better than his original condition.

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

He won't leave us, but we can leave Him.

This is an interesting pov.

How can can one who is created in Jesus Christ able to leave themselves?

:jesus: