Cause verses Allows

[steaver]

I'm not talking about the Mosaic Law, I'm talking about God's moral law. God expects me not to cheat on my wife, though all around me are temptations. If I did fall to the temptations, God is going to chasten me. Why? Because He expected me not to do it.

The Mosaic Law is God's moral Law.

Gal 5:14For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Even as Christians we still fail God's moral law but as Christians we do not give up pressing towards the mark.

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

Steaver, remember that this knowing good and evil came from eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. So there is a reason that it is called "the knowledge of good and evil." This does not mean or imply in any way that one had to eat from this tree to know good. Otherwise, Adam and Eve would have had to disobey God to know good. I see nothing in the text or in the character of God to support such a view.

Some think that the use of "good and evil" together is what is called a merism - it is taking two things to mean one - like saying "it's raining cats and dogs," or "For example, in Genesis 1:1, when God creates the heavens and the earth (KJV), the two parts combine to indicate that God created the whole universe. Similarly, in Psalm 139, the psalmist declares that God knows my downsitting and mine uprising; indicating that God knows all that he does" (look up Merism in Wikipedia).

So the meaning is not that Adam had to sin to know good, but to "know good and evil" which is another thing altogether.

There is nothing to support your view that Adam did not know God was good until he sinned. This is just your view. Essentially, you are trying to make it seem like sin was necessary for man to know God, and I see nothing in the bible to support this view.

I have to say that this is what Wiccans and others say - you can't know love without hate, dark without light, good without evil, sweet without bitter, etc. I reject that view completely for many reasons, mostly because it is not a biblical worldview.

Do me a favor Marcia, tell me how you have experience God's love.

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

But by setting their progenitor up to fail, He then placed them into the situation where they have hearts that do not want Him,

Not sure what you mean here. There are many examples in the scriptures of men and women who longed for God. Most likely much more than Adam ever did before the fall.

Gen. 1-3 doesn't say God caused Adam to fail, or that this was absolutely necessary for him to experience mercy or for God to be glorified.

Let's see, God makes everything good, places Adam in a wonderful garden, gives Adam a companion, tells them to be fruitful and multiply, subdue the earth, be forever happy!

But wait! I want to place a tree in that garden that Adam should not have. Now I know that if I place it there he will certainly eat of it even if I tell him not to.......... what to do, what to do...............I could simply not place the tree there.................but I really like this tree and it would look so beautiful growing there in the garden...............what to do....what to do.......I really want that tree there..............but Adam will eat of it...........what to do.....what to do..............I guess I just go ahead and put it there because I want to, afterall, I am God, I can do anything I want................but there is Adam, so perfect, so beautiful, we are so intimate together, it would certainly destroy him and our perfect relationship if I place it there..........what to do......what to do.........I know it will be just horrible if I place the tree there.................what to do....what to do................................well I like the tree and even though I know Adam will disobey Me and our perfect relationship will be broken, I AM going to place the tree there anyways.............sorry Adam.........no wait, I don't have to appologize, I didn't do anything wrong, I am God.......

......or.......maybe God wanted Adam to learn something good!

Yes it does, as those arguing over geneologies could say it was God's sovereignty for choosing their line as special, or whatever, and thus "cause the believer to deeply honour and value just how magnificient are His ways and His love above our ways and our thoughts of love".

This topic is not excluding anyone nor is it raising one over another. The "geneology" scripture does not apply to this topic.

You're looking at an end result, or an accomodation to what was always seen as a bad occurrence that God worked out for goo, and claiming the occurrence itself was therefore part of the good.

Satan meant it for evil, God meant it for good. Yes, I am looking at the end result, and I understand why God planned to do it this way.

:jesus:

 

[Marcia]

Do me a favor Marcia, tell me how you have experience God's love.

:jesus:

My answer to the above has nothing to do with the issue. Besides, I am not Adam in the garden before the Fall.

 

[steaver]

Here's the irony of your argument: Calvinists insist that man is totally unable to know God, desire God, seek God, etc. because of the fall. I don't want to get into that debate here (or anywhere else ). Your argument is that Adam was spiritually dead PRIOR to the fall because Adam had no fellowship with God nor any concept of moral goodness (or badness) prior to his sinning. Since God had told Adam not to eat of the tree, he DID have some concept of the possibility of disobeying prior to the fall.
.

You have misconstrued my argument. Adam was certainly spiritually alive and had fellowship with God. What Adam did not have was the experience of good and evil.

I maintain that Adam had PERFECT fellowship with God prior to the fall, and now that I think about it, he also had perfect fellowship with his wife--mentally, emotionally, physically, and spiritually--prior to the fall. I'd say that Adam was perfect and holy in his spiritual life prior to the fall.

That's a pretty big "PERFECT"!

If God thought it to be as perfect as you suggest, then why place the tree in Adam's reach KNOWING Adam would disobey and destroy such a perfect fellowship?

Oh, and one more thing that came to my over the weekend. You argue that God's plan is perfect, therefore everything that occurs is perfect, including sin. However, I can think of two sins that Jesus spoke of; of which he said it would have been better if they had not occurred. One, Jesus said, before Judas departed to betray him, it would have been better that Judas had not been born, than to do what he was about to do. Two, Jesus said that it is inevitable that some would offend "little ones" but that for the offender, it would be better for them if a millstone were tied around their neck and they were cast into the sea. So, if God's plan is perfect in the sense that even sins that occur are perfect, how can Jesus say that "it would have been better" if an alternative to what actually occurred had occurred?

Are you arguing that God's plan is not perfect? Or that sin was not part of God's plan?

"it would have been better" for those individuals. God's plan marched on.

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

My answer to the above has nothing to do with the issue. Besides, I am not Adam in the garden before the Fall.

"nothing to do with the issue"....?

Why did God place the tree in Adam's reach KNOWING Adam would fail?

:jesus:

 

[Eric B]

Not sure what you mean here. There are many examples in the scriptures of men and women who longed for God. Most likely much more than Adam ever did before the fall.

Still, the majority do not, and according to foreknowledge, God knew it. And it has been pointed out that saying God foreknew so many would be lost is basically the same as decreeing it. So if God deliberately set Adam to fall, then you basically have supralapsarianism.

Let's see, God makes everything good, places Adam in a wonderful garden, gives Adam a companion, tells them to be fruitful and multiply, subdue the earth, be forever happy!

But wait! I want to place a tree in that garden that Adam should not have. Now I know that if I place it there he will certainly eat of it even if I tell him not to..........

You mean by foreknowledge, right? Otherwise, how would that be known, unless it were decreed?

.............sorry Adam.........no wait, I don't have to appologize, I didn't do anything wrong, I am God.......

Isn't that what you believe?

Like your answer to webdog:

Good answer :thumbs:

And whom is in charge?

Sovereignty!

......or.......maybe God wanted Adam to learn something good!

You know, there isn't even any evidence that Adam learned anything! The last thing we see him do is blame "that woman You gave me"; who in turn blames the serpent.

People claim he "received forgiveness" and is thus automatically saved just because he wore the skins God gave them, foreshadowing the sacrificial system (with one apologist I read years ago going as far as taking the extra time to condemn the Jehovah's witnesses for saying Adam was lost (in addition to all their other doctrines), based just on that). I'm not saying he was lost, but there is still no evidence of what you're saying. Man really did not begin to get a full revelation of God's mercy until Christ, because in the OT, it was Law and Judgment, with a relative few being considered faithful, and even they witnessed an entire world God was perpetually unhappy with.

So I don't think God did all of this for Adam's sake. You can say for your sake, but then if you were born in an unfallen world, you would not even know what you were supposedly "missing" and would still glorify God the same.

This topic is not excluding anyone nor is it raising one over another. The "geneology" scripture does not apply to this topic.

You're the one who quoted "vessels of wrath", which I take in your case would be all the lost (whether they had "choice" or not).

Satan meant it for evil, God meant it for good. Yes, I am looking at the end result, and I understand why God planned to do it this way.

Well, the "God meant..." part I think nobody would fully understand. The evil action is attributed to Satan, not God, though He was said to be working through these things (not necessarily causing them, which is what you seemed to be saying sometimes).

 

[Marcia]

"nothing to do with the issue"....?

Why did God place the tree in Adam's reach KNOWING Adam would fail?

:jesus:

I don't think we know why.

Re Adam experiencing good - of course he experienced good before the Fall! That's all he experienced. Knowing "good and evil" is not the same as knowing good. You still don't get the merism thing.

 

[steaver]

I don't think we know why.

The answer is found all thoughout the scriptures.

Mat 19:17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God:


Adam was given a choice. A test God knew Adam would not pass.

Knowing "good and evil" is not the same as knowing good. You still don't get the merism thing.

I get "merisms", but even if it was a merism it does not answer the question as to why God placed a forbidden object in Adam's reach and commanded Adam not to eat of it KNOWING Adam would indeed disobey allowing sin to enter into mankind.

Of course, allowing sin to enter into mankind has allowed God to glorify His name throughout the earth.....might have something to do with it. I know I sure have come to praise His holy name for what He has done!


:jesus:

 

[steaver]

I have a question for you guys.

Why did God want Job to suffer? (not for sin)

Why does God want "us" His children to suffer? (not for sin)

:jesus:

 

[Marcia]

The answer is found all thoughout the scriptures.

Mat 19:17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God:


Adam was given a choice. A test God knew Adam would not pass.



I get "merisms", but even if it was a merism it does not answer the question as to why God placed a forbidden object in Adam's reach and commanded Adam not to eat of it KNOWING Adam would indeed disobey allowing sin to enter into mankind.

Of course, allowing sin to enter into mankind has allowed God to glorify His name throughout the earth.....might have something to do with it. I know I sure have come to praise His holy name for what He has done!


:jesus:

Your quote is not an answer. Of course no one is good but God because it's a fallen world.

Are you saying Adam did not know good before the Fall? I think you have zero scriptural support for that.

 

[Eric B]

I have a question for you guys.

Why did God want Job to suffer? (not for sin)

Why does God want "us" His children to suffer? (not for sin)

:jesus:

None of those scriptures used to teach that say that God wants us to suffer! When viewd in context, in most cases, the "trials" were not even the pain itself, but rather the opportunity to resist temptation to sin. (The pain itself was actually "sent" by sinning persecutors, not God!) Job was ultimately a lesson about self-justification (both him and his friends).

http://www.erictb.info/abundant.html

 

[swaimj]

Steaver, speaking of Adam pre-fall, said

Adam was certainly spiritually alive and had fellowship with God.

How do you know this?

If God thought it to be as perfect as you suggest, then why place the tree in Adam's reach KNOWING Adam would disobey and destroy such a perfect fellowship?

Because knowing and causing are not the same thing.

Are you arguing that God's plan is not perfect? Or that sin was not part of God's plan?

"it would have been better" for those individuals. God's plan marched on.

God's plan is to ultimately "reconcile all things to Himself" through Jesus. However, this plan for ultimate reconciliation necessarily includes things that are against God's moral will. Therefore the plan includes imperfections.

The soveriegn plan is what it is, however, Jesus took two sins, one of which is the worst ever committed and the other one of the most henious that can be committed and said "it would have been better". If an aspect of God's sovereign plan "would have been better" otherwise, then how can it be perfect?

 

[steaver]

Your quote is not an answer. Of course no one is good but God because it's a fallen world.
.

A "fallen world". Now why would God place a fobidden fruit in reach of Adam knowing full well Adam would disobey and thus cause a fallen world?

Are you saying Adam did not know good before the Fall? I think you have zero scriptural support for that.

Is mercy good? Is grace good? Is justice good? Is forgiveness good? Is longsuffering good? Adam did not know these things that are part of God's good. As you pointed out earlier, the Hebrew locks us into the fact that unless one experiences something they cannot "know" it.

God told Adam that he would surely die if he ate the forbidden fruit. How did Adam even "know" what God meant? How would Adam have any idea what it means to die? Adam could not have understood death so why did God tell Adam what the result of eating the fruit would be? (Justice revealed maybe)

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

None of those scriptures used to teach that say that God wants us to suffer! When viewd in context, in most cases, the "trials" were not even the pain itself, but rather the opportunity to resist temptation to sin. (The pain itself was actually "sent" by sinning persecutors, not God!) Job was ultimately a lesson about self-justification (both him and his friends).

http://www.erictb.info/abundant.html

1Pe 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls [to him] in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

(The pain itself was actually "sent" by sinning persecutors, not God!)

You better reread Job. God is the one who enticed satan to inflict Job and Job declared that his pain and suffering was indeed from the LORD.

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

How do you know this?

Spiritually alive.....

Gen 2:7And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


Fellowship with God.....

Gen 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought [them] unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that [was] the name thereof.

Because knowing and causing are not the same thing.

Interesting......... So if I know my three year old son will surely kill himself with my a hand granade and I place it in his crib with all his other toys, mindful to warn him not to play with it, and I walk away, granade goes off, I did not cause his death?

God's plan is to ultimately "reconcile all things to Himself" through Jesus. However, this plan for ultimate reconciliation necessarily includes things that are against God's moral will. Therefore the plan includes imperfections.

You mean "evil", the plan includes evil. And it is God's plan.

The soveriegn plan is what it is, however, Jesus took two sins, one of which is the worst ever committed and the other one of the most henious that can be committed and said "it would have been better". If an aspect of God's sovereign plan "would have been better" otherwise, then how can it be perfect?

Not get'n it brother. It "would have been better" for those individuals.

Rom 9:22[What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

:jesus:

 

[Eric B]

1Pe 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls [to him] in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

"the will" there has a few definitions:

1) what one wishes or has determined shall be done
a) of the purpose of God to bless mankind through Christ
b) of what God wishes to be done by us
1) commands, precepts
2) will, choice, inclination, desire, pleasure
According to the context of what the "suffering" was for, the proper meanign would be b, as what is God's will for us to be "Christians", and not His will for us to be "murderer, thie[ves], evildoer, or busybod[ies]" (v. 15, 16). The world will punish people for being all of those things, but only being a Christian is "in God's will"; not the suffering itself, which again is being committed by sinful persecutors.

People always snatch up verses like this without even checking the context!

You better reread Job. God is the one who enticed satan to inflict Job and Job declared that his pain and suffering was indeed from the LORD.

I mentioned Job after the statement about pain, so that wasn't referring to Job. For Job, I pointed out that that was a particular lesson being taught, so in that case, it was God. But too many people take this and try to generalize it to all suffering in the world.

 

[Marcia]

A "fallen world". Now why would God place a fobidden fruit in reach of Adam knowing full well Adam would disobey and thus cause a fallen world?

Not because God wanted a fallen world, not because God wanted Adam to sin.

Is mercy good? Is grace good? Is justice good? Is forgiveness good? Is longsuffering good? Adam did not know these things that are part of God's good. As you pointed out earlier, the Hebrew locks us into the fact that unless one experiences something they cannot "know" it.

How do you know he didn't know these things about God? Were you there? I never said such a thing. I made the point that knowing good and evil after disobeying God does not mean Adam did not know good before he disobeyed.

God told Adam that he would surely die if he ate the forbidden fruit. How did Adam even "know" what God meant? How would Adam have any idea what it means to die? Adam could not have understood death so why did God tell Adam what the result of eating the fruit would be? (Justice revealed maybe)

Adam knew what God meant because God created man in His image. This means that Adam had a will and knew there was right and wrong or God could not hold him accountable for disobeying Him. I think Adam did know what death meant or God would not have said that. God does not speak in riddles. The thing is , we don't know everything God told Adam. We just know what is recorded.

You seem to think Adam was some kind of neutral blank robot who knew nothing before the Fall.

 

[swaimj]

Spiritually alive.....

Gen 2:7And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


Fellowship with God.....

Gen 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought [them] unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that [was] the name thereof.

See, you have argued that our position as believers today is superior to Adams because, having experienced sin and having experienced God's grace, we are able to now fellowship with God and we are now spiritually alive. Now you are saying that Adam was spiritually alive and had fellowship with God. So our experience today is superior to Adam's how?

Interesting......... So if I know my three year old son will surely kill himself with my a hand granade and I place it in his crib with all his other toys, mindful to warn him not to play with it, and I walk away, granade goes off, I did not cause his death?

Adam was not a three year old. He was an adult male who had demonstrated the cognitive ability to name the animals. You can tell your three year old not to pull the pin all day because he will be killed, but your three year old does not understand the consequences, so, yes, you would be responsible for his death. Adam was told not to eat the fruit because in the day he did, he would die. Your position, it seems, requires me to conclude that Adam had no idea what this meant or that it would be bad. I see no reason to conclude that and I do not understand why you assume it. Please explain.

Note that Paul teaches clearly "As by one man sin came into the world and so death by sin, and so death came upon all men, for that all have sinned". Sin is not God's fault. Adam chose it willfully and knowingly and he, and thus we, are responsible.

You mean "evil", the plan includes evil. And it is God's plan.

Evil is a part of God's sovereign plan, yes. Evil is not a part of God's moral plan.

Not get'n it brother. It "would have been better" for those individuals.

If God's plan is perfect as you define it, how can it be imperfect for those who are included in it? If it is perfect as you define it, how can Jesus conclude that it "could have been better" for some in it?

 

[steaver]

"the will" there has a few definitions:

1) what one wishes or has determined shall be done
a) of the purpose of God to bless mankind through Christ
b) of what God wishes to be done by us
1) commands, precepts
2) will, choice, inclination, desire, pleasure
According to the context of what the "suffering" was for, the proper meanign would be b, as what is God's will for us to be "Christians", and not His will for us to be "murderer, thie[ves], evildoer, or busybod[ies]" (v. 15, 16). The world will punish people for being all of those things, but only being a Christian is "in God's will"; not the suffering itself, which again is being committed by sinful persecutors.

People always snatch up verses like this without even checking the context!

That is correct Eric. As my original question stated "(not for sin)". God's will is for His children to suffer so they may identify with Jesus Christ in His sufferings. Therefore, what does (b) God wish to be done by us? Suffer for the name of Jesus Christ. As Christians we are to pray for deliverence, this is good, but we are also to praise God and glorify Jesus Christ as we suffer, for this is the will of God for His children.

Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.

Expect sufferings as Christians. It is God's will for us to glorify Jesus Christ.

I mentioned Job after the statement about pain, so that wasn't referring to Job. For Job, I pointed out that that was a particular lesson being taught, so in that case, it was God. But too many people take this and try to generalize it to all suffering in the world.

God does not do anything without a purpose. Having the account of Job recorded as sacred scripture makes it a lesson for everyone of us, not just a lesson for Job. God brings suffering upon all of His children to refine them into the image of Jesus Christ. Job is an example of suffering, not for sins, but for God's glory and sovereignty over all to be revealed. The scripture is clear that we should not suffer as sinners.

Not all are delivered from this suffering. Some must suffer even unto death, others choose to suffer unto death and refuse deliverence. Stephen was stoned to death. Paul suffered a tormentor from satan who God said, after Paul petitioned Him, He would not remove it from him. Suffering is part of being a Christian and God wills it upon us, sometimes to teach us, sometimes to glorify Christ, sometimes for both.

The scripture teaches that it pleased God to bring suffering upon Jesus. And just as Jesus suffered by the will of God likewise must His children suffer.



Thanks for the post brother :wavey:

:jesus: