Causing Men to Lust

[just-want-peace]

Well, FWIW, when my daughter was about 15, she came home with a pair of jeans that fit like she had been poured into them - that was the "style"!

She could see nothing wrong with showing off every curve and wrinkle on her body and got terribly upset that I did not approve.

Luckily, she asked her brother, younger by 2 years, his opinion and he told her - in what terms I have no idea - but whatever he said changed her mind and those jeans were returned.

All I know is that she said "--he told me what goes through a boys mind when he sees a girl dressed like this."

Now!! As to what this guy actually said, I have not listened to yet; but I did bookmark so I can do so tomorrow when I have a better time snippet to listen, but I agree that this topic is LONG overdue in our churches.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Modest Apparel is an issue for the church. You can do something about this issue.

Yes, modest apparel is an issue for the church. However, the person who is being lusted after is not the person at fault on the occasion of lust.

The only thing we boys and men can do is not look at you, not pay any attention to you, and only speak with male companions in your company.

Nonsense! I do not say what follows to shame you, but encourage you. I too, for many years, was taught that there's no hope for change, even though we are Christians. But that's not true at all!

If you are Christ's, you have the ability to become a person who does not lust. The Spirit will empower you if you cooperate with the grace of God. The change is not usually immediate, because we have often built up habits of lusting, but a person can make enormous progress on this front through careful and intentional practice of spiritual disciplines which make room in our lives for the Spirit to transform our motivations, and thereby, our actions.

I am afraid you are confusing noticing the beauty of a woman with the act of lust (that is, looking upon a woman in order to use her sexually -- either mentally or in actual practice). Lust is treating another person as something to be used for physical gratification, not as a person created in the image and glory of God.

 

[quantumfaith]

Yes, modest apparel is an issue for the church. However, the person who is being listed after is not the person at fault on the occasion of lust.


Nonsense!

If you are Christ's, you have the ability to become a person who does not lust. The Spirit will empower you if you cooperate with the grace of God. The change is not usually immediate, because we have often built up habits of lusting, but a person can make enormous progress on this front through careful and intentional practice of spiritual disciplines which make room in our lives for the Spirit to transform our motivations, and thereby, our actions.

I am afraid you are confusing noticing the beauty of a woman with the act of lust (that is, looking upon a woman in order to use her sexually -- either mentally or in actual practice). Lust is treating another person as something to be used for physical gratification, not as a person created in the image and glory of God.

I agree, it is one thing to find a woman attractive and another still to allow ones thoughts to go where they should not.

 

[convicted1]

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

*click* I am still counting you, Brother. I am the new "thumbs up" police!! You need to make one post with four of these------>:thumbs: or I will do my best to have them take one post from your post count........I'll have my eyes on you, Brother!!

Now to the OP, this topic should really be taken on in a men's only atmosphere, if you ask me. As you can already tell, this could have offened some females in that congregation. Just my $0.02 worth!!

 

[Amy.G]

Now to the OP, this topic should really be taken on in a men's only atmosphere, if you ask me. As you can already tell, this could have offened some females in that congregation. Just my $0.02 worth!!

I agree!

If my pastor gave a sermon with all that "detail" about women's bodies with all the women sitting there (including me), I would have been mortified.

 

[BobinKy]

I agree with Pastor Martin on this sermon and I think the sermon should be preached "as is" in all churches. The only difference I can see, is the congregation should be divided up and the men folk attend one hour and the women folk attend a different hour.

The magnets Pastor Martin graphically discussed are real for teenager boys and men. Pretending they do not exist is hiding from the issue, as is preferring them not to be discussed because they may embarrass or educate. No males need education of this issue--it comes naturally. Calling any boy or man dirty or lustful because he looks and wonders does not solve the problem either.

Men should "man up" and tell their sisters, wives, mothers, ladies across the aisle, and ladies in the pew in front of them something like:

Excuse me, but you are so pretty that I cannot keep my mind on the sermon. Do you mind if I move?​

No wonder, many of the old-line Baptist churches separate the congregation into women and girls on one side, and men and boys on the other side. Some even have separate doors.

Ladies, I am with the conservative reformed crowd on this one. Modest Apparel is an issue for the church. You can do something about this issue. The only thing we boys and men can do is not look at you, not pay any attention to you, and only speak with male companions in your company. Please cover up the magnets before you go to church.

. . .

There, I have gone and done it now.

. . . Bob

Most religions have modest attire regulations for both men and women?

Is this wrong?

Article from New York Times on Women's Modest Clothing, 1917.

Has the definition of modest clothing changed?



...Bob

Just wanted to make sure everybody got the full message of what I said--and not the snipped, edited, or out of context version.

...Bob

 

[freeatlast]

Yes, modest apparel is an issue for the church. However, the person who is being lusted after is not the person at fault on the occasion of lust.

[SIZE=+0]Absolutely false. We are all responsible if we cause another to stumble. Anyone who believes that the person offering the offense is innocent then they have the mind of Cane who did not feel he was his brothers keeper. it is true if the woman is clothed in a modest manner they are not responsible, but in todays world that is seldom.[/SIZE]



If you are Christ's, you have the ability to become a person who does not lust. The Spirit will empower you if you cooperate with the grace of God. The change is not usually immediate, because we have often built up habits of lusting, but a person can make enormous progress on this front through careful and intentional practice of spiritual disciplines which make room in our lives for the Spirit to transform our motivations, and thereby, our actions.

You statement partly true but it lacks completeness. We are told not to tempt the Lord. yet he cannot be tempted by man. The same applies to men and women. Even though someone might overcome and learn not to lust the women still hold the responsibility to keep herself from looking lustful.

I am afraid you are confusing noticing the beauty of a woman with the act of lust (that is, looking upon a woman in order to use her sexually -- either mentally or in actual practice). Lust is treating another person as something to be used for physical gratification, not as a person created in the image and glory of God.

Beauty has nothing to do with this. This is about immodest clothing.

 

[freeatlast]

I agree!

If my pastor gave a sermon with all that "detail" about women's bodies with all the women sitting there (including me), I would have been mortified.

The problem is that very few women are mortified by how they bring dishonor on themselves and the Lord by how they dress. This is not about what this man said, but it is about the fact that he said it and exposed some evil hearts and now many are seeking to cover their own sin by calling the message improper.

If this message was given to women only the same response would be seen from the same ones because they are not submitted to modesty. Rebellion runs deep in the heart of the rebellious.

 

[Amy.G]

The problem is that very few women are mortified by how they bring dishonor on themselves and the Lord by how they dress. This is not about what this man said, but it is about the fact that he said it and exposed some evil hearts and now many are seeking to cover their own sin by calling the message improper.

If this message was given to women only the same response would be seen from the same ones because they are not submitted to modesty. Rebellion runs deep in the heart of the rebellious.

I'm not trying to cover my sin. I wouldn't be caught dead in the clothes that pastor described. I always dress modestly. I know we all have a responsibility to do what we can to keep our brethren from stumbling. My opposition to the sermon is that it was done in mixed company. None of the women at my church dress immodestly.

 

[BobinKy]

Yes, modest apparel is an issue for the church. However, the person who is being lusted after is not the person at fault on the occasion of lust.

Nonsense! I do not say what follows to shame you, but encourage you. I too, for many years, was taught that there's no hope for change, even though we are Christians. But that's not true at all!

If you are Christ's, you have the ability to become a person who does not lust. The Spirit will empower you if you cooperate with the grace of God. The change is not usually immediate, because we have often built up habits of lusting, but a person can make enormous progress on this front through careful and intentional practice of spiritual disciplines which make room in our lives for the Spirit to transform our motivations, and thereby, our actions.

I am afraid you are confusing noticing the beauty of a woman with the act of lust (that is, looking upon a woman in order to use her sexually -- either mentally or in actual practice). Lust is treating another person as something to be used for physical gratification, not as a person created in the image and glory of God.

I do not say what follows to shame you, but encourage you.

Who are you kidding?

. . .

Why do women try to make themselves beautiful?

. . .

I spent many years of my business career in advertising. I know the power of sex appeal. If a woman or girl walks in public with a slit-skirt, but tells her father or brother or husband they are not trying to look sexy--and those guys believe it--well, somebody is kidding somebody.

. . .

Maybe it is time to pull in scripture? But frankly, I am too tired this evening. And you can look it up as easy as I can. And you can look up dress for various religions around the world, as easy as I can.

Don't kid yourself. This discussion is about modest apparel. Google modest apparel and see what you get. You may be surprised.

And if you are a preacher, you should be doing something about it in your church. We have to first clean up the churches before we can clean up the streets. The church should be the church!

In my opinion, the pastor in the video did what was right. As I said in my earlier post, the thing I think should be different is that there should have been two sermon times--one for boys and men, and a second for girls and women. If the practice in his church was for the sermon to be delivered by him or another male pastor, then he did the right thing by preaching it himself.

...Bob

 

[quantumfaith]

The problem is that very few women are mortified by how they bring dishonor on themselves and the Lord by how they dress. This is not about what this man said, but it is about the fact that he said it and exposed some evil hearts and now many are seeking to cover their own sin by calling the message improper.

If this message was given to women only the same response would be seen from the same ones because they are not submitted to modesty. Rebellion runs deep in the heart of the rebellious.

Free,

How about you being the one to define "modest" apparel for us.

 

[freeatlast]

I'm not trying to cover my sin. I wouldn't be caught dead in the clothes that pastor described. I always dress modestly. I know we all have a responsibility to do what we can to keep our brethren from stumbling. My opposition to the sermon is that it was done in mixed company. None of the women at my church dress immodestly.

Amy then you must be the only women in your church. :laugh: You cannot find any scriptural grounds for separating the men from the women because of a message. If a man acts improper in front of a woman he needs to be told so in front of women. If the women can dress immodestly in front of men they they need to hear about it in front of men.

 

[Gershom]

If this pastor delivered such a message as part of my church, we'd have a sit-down afterward. To make such a spectacle of the women who had to sit through this, as well as their husbands and children, is absolutely horrible. The embarrassment he caused (to his own admission as some women were hiding their eyes from him) does more harm than good. If he is having such a problem with modesty within the church, he needs to make it known to the mature ladies through his wife or another aged woman who will in turn teach the younger women how to be modest.

His descriptions have no place in such a mixed audience. Nothing wrong with being concerned with immodesty, but be smart in the handling of such a problem.

 

[freeatlast]

Free,

How about you being the one to define "modest" apparel for us.

Clothing that does not draw attention to the woman in a sensual manner.

 

[Scarlett O.]

The problem is that very few women are mortified by how they bring dishonor on themselves and the Lord by how they dress. This is not about what this man said, but it is about the fact that he said it and exposed some evil hearts and now many are seeking to cover their own sin by calling the message improper.

If this message was given to women only the same response would be seen from the same ones because they are not submitted to modesty. Rebellion runs deep in the heart of the rebellious.

This is the second time that you have accused the women who have posted in this thread of dressing immodestly.

So this will be my second time to tell you that you are "mistaken". That's my polite way of saying that you are not telling the truth. Literally, brother. You can't see me or Amy or abcgrad94. You have no clue how we dress. I have no clue how those other two ladies dress, but I know them well enough to say that I believe them 100% when they say that they dress appropriately.

Why are you questioning our testimony on that? I'm telling you. I do not wear inappropriate clothing. I have counseled other women and young girls that I have taught to wear decent clothing. I have sent a handful of girls home from school for wearing what was, in my sole opinion, inappropriate clothes. I did not allow for an 8th grade girl to walk across the 8th grade graduation stage because her skirt was too short. I caused a big stink, but as you can probably tell, I didn't really care.

The only thing that I might be guilty of is wearing more make-up and jewelry than the average woman, but I don't look a clown nor a gypsy. My clothes are appropriate at all times.

You say that our evil hearts have been exposed and that we are trying to cover our own sin by being mortified at this message. You say that our heart are rebellious and that rebellion ruins deep in us. You say that we are not submitted to modesty.

Those are probably the strongest words that have ever been said to me, personally, on the internet from a sane person. I've had much worse said to me by crazy people, but you don't appear to be crazy - only angry.

On what do base this opinion of our clothing?

 

[Baptist Believer]

Yes, modest apparel is an issue for the church. However, the person who is being lusted after is not the person at fault on the occasion of lust.

Absolutely false. We are all responsible if we cause another to stumble.

If the person was intentionally targeting someone else in order to get them to lust, then they would share some blame. However, most men don't need anyone to tempt them, they go looking for women to lust over. The women are the victims of lust, not the person at fault.

Anyone who believes that the person offering the offense is innocent then they have the mind of Cane who did not feel he was his brothers keeper.

Nice pronouncement/accusation... (I assume you are accusing me a being like Cain, not someone named Cane.)

We are certainly supposed to help our brothers and sister in the way off righteousness, but we are not responsible for their sin when they sin against us when they use us as objects of lust.

...it is true if the woman is clothed in a modest manner they are not responsible, but in todays world that is seldom.

Don't be so sure. My wife is curvy and dresses modestly, but there is no mistaking that she has an exceptional figure. She has had to bear the indignity of street evangelists publicly accusing her of being immoral because they apparently found themselves lusting after her figure (this has happened on more than one occasion in my presence and I had words with the street preachers). She faced this is college and has had guys try to grope her in the past. Knowing her very well, I know she didn't invite any of the attention, but she was the victim of sexually out-of-control men, many of whom claimed to be strong Christians. As you might imagine, this is a pet peeve of mine since I know what my wife has endured. I also know what it is like to be a guy who used to have a severe lust problem and has had a very significant amount of victory in this area. Lust is definitely an area where we have a lot of control over, if we want to have control. The blunt truth is that many Christian men really don't want to have victory over this sin and they create a theology and practice that blames women so they can protect their sin. What's worse, is that many men who genuinely want to be free of lust believe the lie that they can't change and live in misery and guilt.

If you are Christ's, you have the ability to become a person who does not lust. The Spirit will empower you if you cooperate with the grace of God. The change is not usually immediate, because we have often built up habits of lusting, but a person can make enormous progress on this front through careful and intentional practice of spiritual disciplines which make room in our lives for the Spirit to transform our motivations, and thereby, our actions.

You statement partly true but it lacks completeness. We are told not to tempt the Lord. yet he cannot be tempted by man. The same applies to men and women. Even though someone might overcome and learn not to lust the women still hold the responsibility to keep herself from looking lustful.

As I have said before, women (and men) need to be careful what they wear and how they carry themselves, but there is no possible way to keep oneself from looking "lustful" (whatever that is) if someone is interesting in lusting after you.

I am afraid you are confusing noticing the beauty of a woman with the act of lust (that is, looking upon a woman in order to use her sexually -- either mentally or in actual practice). Lust is treating another person as something to be used for physical gratification, not as a person created in the image and glory of God.

Beauty has nothing to do with this. This is about immodest clothing.

No, it's about lust (notice the title of the sermon in the OP). Immodest clothing is just what is being blamed for lustful acts.

 

[freeatlast]

If this pastor delivered such a message as part of my church, we'd have a sit-down afterward. To make such a spectacle of the women who had to sit through this, as well as their husbands and children, is absolutely horrible. The embarrassment he caused (to his own admission as some women were hiding their eyes from him) does more harm than good. If he is having such a problem with modesty within the church, he needs to make it known to the mature ladies through his wife or another aged woman who will in turn teach the younger women how to be modest.

His descriptions have no place in such a mixed audience. Nothing wrong with being concerned with immodesty, but be smart in the handling of such a problem.

Totally disagree. The immodest clothing has no place in a mixed audience. So if it is worn by a member then they need to hear about it in the same forum. By the way he did not point anyone person out. The only ones embarrassed would be those clothed improperly.
I have been in churches where if a member sinned and it brought losing ones fellowship they had to come before the whole congregation and admit their sin and ask forgiveness if they wanted the fellowship back. I have never seen the same person have to do it more then once.

 

[freeatlast]

If the person was intentionally targeting someone else in order to get them to lust, then they would share some blame. However, most men don't need anyone to tempt them, they go looking for women to lust over. The women are the victims of lust, not the person at fault.


Nice pronouncement/accusation... (I assume you are accusing me a being like Cain, not someone named Cane.)

We are certainly supposed to help our brothers and sister in the way off righteousness, but we are not responsible for their sin when they sin against us when they use us as objects of lust.


Don't be so sure. My wife is curvy and dresses modestly, but there is no mistaking that she has an exceptional figure. She has had to bear the indignity of street evangelists publicly accusing her of being immoral because they apparently found themselves lusting after her figure (this has happened on more than one occasion in my presence and I had words with the street preachers). She faced this is college and has had guys try to grope her in the past. Knowing her very well, I know she didn't invite any of the attention, but she was the victim of sexually out-of-control men, many of whom claimed to be strong Christians. As you might imagine, this is a pet peeve of mine since I know what my wife has endured. I also know what it is like to be a guy who used to have a severe lust problem and has had a very significant amount of victory in this area. Lust is definitely an area where we have a lot of control over, if we want to have control. The blunt truth is that many Christian men really don't want to have victory over this sin and they create a theology and practice that blames women so they can protect their sin. What's worse, is that many men who genuinely want to be free of lust believe the lie that they can't change and live in misery and guilt.



As I have said before, women (and men) need to be careful what they wear and how they carry themselves, but there is no possible way to keep oneself from looking "lustful" (whatever that is) if someone is interesting in lusting after you.


No, it's about lust (notice the title of the sermon in the OP). Immodest clothing is just what is being blamed for lustful acts.

Immodest clothing does cause lust. There is no question that some men seek women to fill their lusts, but this was about men of God seeking to live godly and certain women dressing in a manner that caused them to stumble. The message was proper and properly done. Rebellion is what stands against truth.

 

[freeatlast]

This is the second time that you have accused the women who have posted in this thread of dressing immodestly.

So this will be my second time to tell you that you are "mistaken". That's my polite way of saying that you are not telling the truth. Literally, brother. You can't see me or Amy or abcgrad94. You have no clue how we dress. I have no clue how those other two ladies dress, but I know them well enough to say that I believe them 100% when they say that they dress appropriately.

Why are you questioning our testimony on that? I'm telling you. I do not wear inappropriate clothing. I have counseled other women and young girls that I have taught to wear decent clothing. I have sent a handful of girls home from school for wearing what was, in my sole opinion, inappropriate clothes. I did not allow for an 8th grade girl to walk across the 8th grade graduation stage because her skirt was too short. I caused a big stink, but as you can probably tell, I didn't really care.

The only thing that I might be guilty of is wearing more make-up and jewelry than the average woman, but I don't look a clown nor a gypsy. My clothes are appropriate at all times.

You say that our evil hearts have been exposed and that we are trying to cover our own sin by being mortified at this message. You say that our heart are rebellious and that rebellion ruins deep in us. You say that we are not submitted to modesty.

Those are probably the strongest words that have ever been said to me, personally, on the internet from a sane person. I've had much worse said to me by crazy people, but you don't appear to be crazy - only angry.

On what do base this opinion of our clothing?

let me say this differently. This is the third time I am saying that many women in the church dress immodest. In the message this man gave he did them a service, not a disservice as many pastors today do to the congregations that lead by keeping quite on such matters. And no I am not angry. I am just saying what is true.

 

[Scarlett O.]

In my opinion, the pastor in the video did what was right. As I said in my earlier post, the thing I think should be different is that there should have been two sermon times--one for boys and men, and a second for girls and women. If the practice in his church was for the sermon to be delivered by him or another male pastor, then he did the right thing by preaching it himself.

...Bob

Bob, let me ask you two questions.

#1. If the women were alone in the congregation, do you think that would erase their mortification at having to hear the pastor discuss their body parts with words that their own doctors don't even use with them. If it were only women in my church listening to this, I would still be so embarrassed that I would have a desire to hide under the pew. I would not be able to make eye contact with him every again. I would always be wondering. Which part of my body is he looking at and where is the nearest burlap bag that I can throw over myself? :laugh: Let me tell you this. I heard Beth Moore talk to a convention center FULL of women on this topic and brother, did she ever shell the corn!! She lowered the BOOM about proper and decent clothing, stepped on our collective toes, never apologized and yet she did not come close to using the crude language that this man did.

#2. Why would an audience of men only/boys only need to hear this topic verbatim as it was present to women? Why would young 8, 9, and 10 year old boys NEED to hear about the "butts" of hookers and the "erotic parts" of a woman's body and stories about a young man wanting to slip his hand down the back of a girl's underwear? What is it specifically about this sermon that men in a men only audience needed to hear?