Causing Men to Lust

[Baptist Believer]

I just thought I would pop up my signature so everyone can see that it does not contain the word "Lust" as you stated above.

I did not state it contained the word "lust."

I was pointing out that Jesus teaches that evil thoughts and actions come from the heart and cannot be blamed on external stimuli. Jesus states it over and over in several ways. You signature is one of those places. I previously quoted Mark 7:20-23 as another (a bit more specific concerning the issue).

Furthermore, Jesus taught that a tree is known by it's fruit... A tree cannot blame someone else for bearing bad fruit. A tree bears bad fruit because of it's character (it is either a bad tree or is very unhealthy).

 

[abcgrad94]

The purpose of exposing sin is to restore the sinner's heart back to God. It is NOT to "shame" or humiliate or embarrass them into correcting the problem. Yet this pastor did just that by delivering this sermon using explicit wording in mixed company.

If I were a hard-hearted woman who dressed immodestly, the approach used by this pastor (and touted by some posters here to be proper) would do nothing to change my heart--maybe my actions--but not my heart.

From the sounds of some of the posts on this thread, it seems those who support this pastor's actions care more about scorning and shaming people into doing right, NOT about loving them and directing their hearts back to God. Sure, humiliating people might bring results, but it won't bring a change of heart except maybe some bitterness towards the scorner.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The purpose of exposing sin is to restore the sinner's heart back to God. It is NOT to "shame" or humiliate or embarrass them into correcting the problem. Yet this pastor did just that by delivering this sermon using explicit wording in mixed company.

If I were a hard-hearted woman who dressed immodestly, the approach used by this pastor (and touted by some posters here to be proper) would do nothing to change my heart--maybe my actions--but not my heart.

From the sounds of some of the posts on this thread, it seems those who support this pastor's actions care more about scorning and shaming people into doing right, NOT about loving them and directing their hearts back to God. Sure, humiliating people might bring results, but it won't bring a change of heart except maybe some bitterness towards the scorner.

Who is he humiliating?

 

[abcgrad94]

Who is he humiliating?

All the women there, listening to him, whether they are guilty or not.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

All the women there, listening to him, whether they are guilty or not.

Go back then & listen to the 1st 5 min of the sermon then. He is talking about the conditions he is seeing in his preaching area. Are you familiar with northern NJ?

 

[sag38]

In some circles, as evidenced by some here, these types of sermons are very popular. Legalistic mentalities will flock to hear such sermons. I'm not saying that these things don't need to be taught in a church. But, the manner and method is important. All this pastor did was to generate a Taliban type atmosphere in his church where women are viewed as problems rather than people.

A friend of mine in Central Alabama told me of attending an anti-gambling rally at a local fundamentalist church. But, instead of preaching on gambling the pastor preached on the way women dressed in his church and how they were causing him and other men in the church to lust. There were massive shouts of amen from the congregation. My friend was even more shocked to step out of the front door of the church after the service to watch the pastor's wife pull out a Virgina Slim and light right up.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

In some circles, as evidenced by some here, these types of sermons are very popular. Legalistic mentalities will flock to hear such sermons. I'm not saying that these things don't need to be taught in a church. But, the manner and method is important. All this pastor did was to generate a Taliban type atmosphere in his church where women are viewed as problems rather than people.

A friend of mine in Central Alabama told me of attending an anti-gambling rally at a local fundamentalist church. But, instead of preaching on gambling the pastor preached on the way women dressed in his church and how they were causing him and other men in the church to lust. There were massive shouts of amen from the congregation. My friend was even more shocked to step out of the front door of the church after the service to watch the pastor's wife pull out a Virgina Slim and light right up.

Taliban....:laugh:

 

[Crabtownboy]

All the women there, listening to him, whether they are guilty or not.

Hmmm, men blaming women for their own sinful lust. :laugh:

Men have a long history of blaming other for their sin. "Hey God, Eve gave me the apple. It isn't my fault. :laugh:

 

[abcgrad94]

Go back then & listen to the 1st 5 min of the sermon then. He is talking about the conditions he is seeing in his preaching area. Are you familiar with northern NJ?

It doesn't matter what the "conditions" are, EWF. What I'm familiar with is how women think and feel when their gender is being described in such detail while in mixed company. Women are women, whether in NJ or elsewhere, and they are going to feel embarrassed and shamed by this sermon whether they dress immodestly or not.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It doesn't matter what the "conditions" are, EWF. What I'm familiar with is how women think and feel when their gender is being described in such detail while in mixed company. Women are women, whether in NJ or elsewhere, and they are going to feel embarrassed and shamed by this sermon whether they dress immodestly or not.

OK, my wife was there & she didnt have a problem with the sermon.

 

[rbell]

Al is from New Jersey ....go watch some of the NJ cable programs.....The Jersey Shore program with Snookey & tell me after viewing that trash if the Reverand Martin doesnt have a point to make. Honestly, you sound like you live in a box. You need to get out more. Martin knows what he is talking about.:laugh:

Just because Jersey Shore is crass about God's gift of sexuality (horribly misused, on that show, of course)...doesn't mean we in the church have to deal with it in a crass and/or borderline inappropriate manner.

We can still deal with pertinent issues, but in a more circumspect way.

And yes...I'm working with the age group most influenced by the coarsening of our culture. I deal with it all the time. Truthfully, too. But, I'm going to err on the side of speaking wisely and circumspectly about it--not sacrificing truth, mind you--but sometimes you can say the "right" thing in the wrong way...and it's simply not heard.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Just because Jersey Shore is crass about God's gift of sexuality (horribly misused, on that show, of course)...doesn't mean we in the church have to deal with it in a crass and/or borderline inappropriate manner.

We can still deal with pertinent issues, but in a more circumspect way.

And yes...I'm working with the age group most influenced by the coarsening of our culture. I deal with it all the time. Truthfully, too. But, I'm going to err on the side of speaking wisely and circumspectly about it--not sacrificing truth, mind you--but sometimes you can say the "right" thing in the wrong way...and it's simply not heard.

Define crass & Inappropriate cause your & mine differ.

 

[convicted1]

You speak blasphemy when you speak in that manner about Al Martin. This man has devoted over 40 years of his life to Building & growing a very strong & God driven church in New Jersey....just google the man & you will see all that he has accomplished in his life tirelessly for the cause of Christ.

Bro EWF,

I did not mean any disrespect to the man. My only concern(and I am speaking for myself only) is that we need to pick and choose where we fight our battles. Too many women would probably feel belittled with this topic being spoken in the presence with both genders present. I just stated that he would probably be better served by speaking this to one gender at a time. If I was a woman, I would want this spoken to "men only" or women only" audiences. I truly wouldn't "burn him at the stake" for speaking the truth, but speak this truth to "one gender at a time". That is what I was trying to say. That's not too much to ask a pastor to do, is it, Brother? Please do not take this as me trying to disrespect him! I truly didn't mean to!

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[pinoybaptist]

I don't know why we all have to tell a preacher how he should talk, or what phrases he should use, or when and where is an appropriate time to touch on a subject.
He called the man to preach, teach, and lead, and how he does it is his business and responsibility to the One who called him.

 

[saturneptune]

If that sermon didn't cause the men to lust, I don't know what will!

I agree 100% with you and Scarlett. This man would not be called to our local church. He is demeaning to women, proud in his demeanor, and lacking in his leadership. His voice and mannerisms are obnoxious. It seems to me his lack of leadership is quite apparent in the fact he even preached the sermon. Our church has no problems, and I mean none, in the dress of our men, women, or children members or guests. We have better things to do than dwell upon someone's appearance like tell others about Jesus. If this pastor was leading his congregation properly, immodest dress would be brought to the attention of each individual on a case by case basis and taken care of right there according to the standards of the local church. The fact that he has to get up, and speak to a group of immodestly dressed women, tells me that he, who is responsible for the conduct of that church, let the problem go and is now out of control. Also, he seems awful worried about how a woman dressing effects him or others. It seems to me the Holy Spirit living in us takes care of that for us. It seems very imbalanced to me. Men are as reponsible for their dress as women. Women are as responsible for their thoughts as men. The bottom line is, without the power of the Holy Spirit, everyone would fail. With the power of the Holy Spirit, it is easy to handle. This guy has the mindset of this rule and that rule, and not much to say about the power of the Lord to make us more like Jesus. Jesus changes lives, not longer dresses. If the pastor had handled the problem from day one, he could have preached the Gospel that morning.

 

[drfuss]

I wonder if Martin and those who blame the women for thier lust, ever go swimming. If they do go swimming or to the beach, they must have a terrible time with their lusts. I assume they can only go on vacations to the mountains; of course, they may be exposed to women in shorts and halters there. Okay, no summer vacations.

 

[Crabtownboy]

I don't know why we all have to tell a preacher how he should talk, or what phrases he should use, or when and where is an appropriate time to touch on a subject.
He called the man to preach, teach, and lead, and how he does it is his business and responsibility to the One who called him.

Perhaps the one who called him to preach uses members of the congregation to occasionally keep him on the right path ... even in his preaching.

:godisgood:

 

[convicted1]

I don't know why we all have to tell a preacher how he should talk, or what phrases he should use, or when and where is an appropriate time to touch on a subject.
He called the man to preach, teach, and lead, and how he does it is his business and responsibility to the One who called him.

Bro. Pinoy,

I do not disagree with what you posted here, but there is something called 'tact', and I think he may overstepped his boundaries on this subject, IMHHO. Any sermon, to a certain extent, is no more effective than the audience being addressed. The truth IS the truth, and it will be the only thing that will stand when this world is ablaze.

I heard a story(true I am pretty sure) where a church had a previous alcoholic who was saved and was a member there. A lot of times, the pastor would use this person's previous lifestyle as an example of the power of God, and how He saves sinners from ANY AND ALL SINS(emphasis only, Brother). That was well and good for a while, but over time, they became sick and tired of their "laundry" being broadcasted to the congregation. I know that this pastor probably did not belabor this point over and over again, but you get the picture. You can get a point across without making a gender feel uncomfortable over an issue such as this. I just feel that this topic would have been better served in a "male only" or "female only" class, or church meeting. Please do not take this as me slamming you, I just wanted to give my $0.02 worth!! I love you Brother!!

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[blackbird]

You speak blasphemy when you speak in that manner about Al Martin. This man has devoted over 40 years of his life to Building & growing a very strong & God driven church in New Jersey....just google the man & you will see all that he has accomplished in his life tirelessly for the cause of Christ.

How is critiqueing a borderline sermon by Martin seen as blasphemy??? Is Martin Jesus??? Did anyone here accuse and then condemn him for sermon outlines that came from Beel-ze-bub??

There are no doubt--- Engineers who work tirelessly for NASA for years and years---and still---every now and then---a rocket can go haywire----what makes anyone think that Martin can't never ever "crash and burn" one every now and then?????

Martin puts his pants on one leg at a time---admitting that in someones opinion he "crashed and burned" isn't in the same catagory as accusing Jesus Christ of works done in the name of beelzebub!!:type:

 

[Gabriel Elijah]

If you ever have the problem of lusting in a church---then simply attend one where all the members of the opposite sex are 50 years your senior. That’s how it is at my church & I can honestly say—not one time have I had a lust problem during our praise & worship services!