Celebrating Christmas is an Insult to Christ

[Ed Edwards]

Alexander: //I say we should celebrate Christmas joyously, rapturously, with child-like wonder and heart-felt gratitude! Let's join the angelic chorus: Peace on earth! Good will to men!//

Amen, Brother Alexander -- Preach it!

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by Alexander:
ituttut,

I see that your reasoning is inconsistent.

Hello Alexander. Please embellish with specifics. Is the Bible inconsistent and full of contradictions? I don’t believe so.

You insist on strictly following Biblical sources (as you interpret them), yet your reasoning as to why Jesus' birth could not have been in December is entirely based on human speculation. This is very inconsistent, and I'm guessing you use it because there is NO other way for you to prove your point.

A point proved, is undeniable truth rejected by man, as man wishes to believe man and not God. Please see below.

On the other hand, Scripture does point toward a December birth of our Lord, given that Gabriel's Annunciation to Mary occurred 'in the sixth month.' According to the Jewish calendar, that would place the Annunciation in March, with Jesus' birth coming 9 months later in December.

To understand scripture, in most cases, we cannot just take one verse and lift it out to fit earthly church dogma. I take it you may believe scripture? If so, tell me how you read the four verses below.

At least two (Debby in Philly and myself, and some others agree) have debunked man’s take on the “six month” held by unthinking and/or willing ignorance on their part. The following information was in one of my posts, and it looks as if you may have missed it. For what it’s worth, here are four of the verses referred to both in Luke 1 that must be brought together for the correct understanding. Verses 24-26, ”And after those days his wife Elisabeth conceived, and hid herself five months, saying, 25. Thus hath the Lord dealt with me in the days wherein he looked on me, to take away my reproach among men. 26. And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,” and verse 36, ”And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.”

Elisabeth hid herself five months, and in the sixth month of Elisabeth’s pregnancy Gabriel was sent to Mary. Gabriel tells Mary that Elisabeth is six months into her pregnancy. It is evident the six months reference pertains to Elisabeth’s pregnancy, and not the month of Tishri, for had it the Shepard’s would not have been with their flocks in the hills. They would have been at home, and the sheep would have been feeding in the trough where Jesus lay.



Your comparison of Oklahoma to Israel in December is laughable. You might as well compare Tampa to Moscow. Geography, proximity to the ocean, elevation, and many other factors all affect climate. What might be feasible at one latitude is impossible at a different location on the same latitude, simply because of local conditions - even during the same time of the year.

Alexander

I completely agree it is laughable, and that is the reason for my reference Okla. and Judah. Please read and also note to whom I replied. The comparison was not mine. Ed Edwards compared Palm Springs, Calif. to Bethlehem. Since Mr. Edwards is located in central Okla., (a couple degrees north of Palm Springs), I made my comment. Perhaps you will wish to post Mr. Edwards with your thoughts of ridicule. Christian faith, ituttut

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by Jim1999:
Ever thought of checking out weather patterns in Palestine? It might help to confirm the two seasons that prevail there, including the inclement weather in December. You might also check with how sheep are handled in the present day, and the flocks gathered and placed in pens during December, getting ready for the January births. Lambs must be ready for the passover sacrifices.

Hello Jim1999. I favor His Word, and perhaps you have not read my post submitted a few hours before this one of yours. Ezra 10:9 and 13; Song of Solomon 2:11 give valuable information on this subject.

We cannot get all the information from the Bible text alone. We draw on outside sources to support wot scripture is saying, ie: history, secular references, climatology, geography and even secular facts, such as the writings of Josephus, a Jewish historian.

Cheers,

Jim

Agree, but when the Holy Spirit furnishes clear and concise information, that view must be taken, and man’s word must be taken for it’s worth. Sometimes they are right, and sometimes they are wrong. If mans writings concur with His Word, then that man understands. If it differs, understanding is only the understanding of the man, and that understanding will contradict the Word of God. And I am not in disagreement with you on history, secular, and the rest if the history and secular are accurate. If it is accurate it agrees with His Word. If it is not accurate, then the history and secular must be false, regardless which man it is that did not allow the Holy Spirit to do the interpreting.

current weather in Bethleham:

"This was a very, very exceptional Christmas," said Abdel Rahman Ghayatha, the Palestinian police commander in downtown Bethlehem. "We did not expect this big a turnout of people, especially in light of the rain and cold. It was very exceptional and very orderly."

Yes sir, the turnout was exceptional this year. Looks to me that this weather bears out Ezra, and SofS. Christian faith, ituttut.

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by Alexander:
Ed Edwards,

Thanks for your enlightening comments about what the weather in Palestine in December is like,

Part of the problem with this discussion is that some folks assume that December in Palestine is like December in the higher latitudes of the northern hemisphere. It isn't, and your comments help clarify that.

But the larger question is this: why do some people just have to do their best to cast doubts on a Christian tradition nearly 2000 years old? And a tradition that is, after all, based on historical/Scriptural texts? If someone wants to deny him/herself and their family the joy of the seaon, that's fine. But I don't see the need to cast that 'Bah! Humbug!' spirit out to the rest of the world. I say we should celebrate Christmas joyously, rapturously, with child-like wonder and heart-felt gratitude! Let's join the angelic chorus: Peace on earth! Good will to men!

Alexander

Are you saying tradition of man, that adds to His Word, is now to be taken as scripture? This is a "church" tradition, that someone began bringing into some Christian churches in the fourth century. Took lots of years for the Pagan Emperor to bring the Idol worshipers in to contaminate that church. This is the very reason we are not to follow tradition of man. Christmas is not in the Bible.

Can’t you just see Peter kneeling under a “tree”, and Paul saying “Merry Christmas”, and John saying, “Isn’t it wonderful that Jesus Christ told us to remember His Birthday”? They didn’t do this, for it didn’t happen, or they would have told us. Christian faith, ituttut

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by music4Him:
Let me see if I got this right....Elizibeth gave birth in the 6th month.

On the Jewish calandar that would be the month of Elul.

But Mary concieved when Elizibeth was 6 months along in her preganancy.

So this would make the month that Jesus was born somewhere posibley in the month of Nissan. (March -April) Nissan is also the Month of Passover.

If you want to know how I figured this out....
I read Luke 1 to get my info and found a Jewish calendar @ Judaism 101 and checked it out. Also don't forget to count out the pregnancy right with adding 1 month extra on Mary's conceving day. Starting with the month of Sivan (May- June).

Hi music4Him. This does look to be believable, but this would make Jesus’ ministry stretch to 4 years, for scripture seems to indicate He kept 4 Passovers – John 2:13; 5:1; 6-4, and 11:55. Christian faith, ituttut.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Ituttut: //This does look to be believable, but this would make Jesus’ ministry stretch to 4 years, for scripture seems to indicate He kept 4 Passovers – John 2:13; 5:1; 6-4, and 11:55.//

Actually it seems that Jesus' ministry is SHRUNK to 3½-years
to make Christ's ministry fit a prophecy in Daniel 9:27 about
the Antichrist.

Celebrating the Birthday of Jesus gives honor and glory
to Christ. Only a Grinch would think otherwise.

 

[Alexander]

Many of you are missing the point. 'In the 6th month' does not refer to the 6th month of Elizabeth's pregnancy. It refers to the 6th month of the Jewish calendar. That is why we arrive at a December date for our Lord's birth.

Thank you, Ed. You're saying what I've been reluctant to put into print. It strikes me as very grinchy to denigrate the celebration of Chrismas.

Let me make a suggestion. Those of you who think Christmas has pagan origins, is nothing but a 'church tradition' (whatever THAT means) or who think for any reason that Christmas should not be celebrated by Christians - - - - - do whatever you like during the Christmas season. Don't put up a tree. Don't exchange presents with family and friends. Don't go to parties. Don't sing Chrismas carols. Do whatever you like. But keep your grinchiness to yourself. Leave Chrismas to those of us who celebrate it joyfully, reverently, expectantly, extravagantly. We're having a great time!

Alexander

 

[Ed Edwards]

Alexander: //We're having a great time!//

Isn't there a verse that says
Deacons should act like they have one
foot in the grave? Ah, here it is:

1 Timothy 3:8 (KJV1611 Edition):
Likewise must the Deacons bee graue, not double tongued,
not giuen to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre,

Alexander: //Leave Chrismas to those of us who celebrate it joyfully, reverently, expectantly, extravagantly. //

Amen, Brother Alexander -- Preach it!

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Ituttut: //This does look to be believable, but this would make Jesus’ ministry stretch to 4 years, for scripture seems to indicate He kept 4 Passovers – John 2:13; 5:1; 6-4, and 11:55.//

Actually it seems that Jesus' ministry is SHRUNK to 3½-years
to make Christ's ministry fit a prophecy in Daniel 9:27 about
the Antichrist.

Thanks for your input EE. Perhaps you are beginning to see. We now have more to work with to prove the pagan December 25 is from the mind of fallen man, along with the other evidence presented. We don’t know the exact day, but it has been said here previously that the first part of October was when the Word became flesh. Using the three and one half years that Jesus was in ministry on this earth will take us back to His late September or early October birth I put forth, for He had just turned 30 entering the ministry.

We know he was crucified on Nisan 14 (April) John 19:31 a Wednesday, for Thursday was a High Sabbath, reference Leviticus 23:5. When we go back in time, three and a half years from Nisan 14 we arrive in the month of October, when Jesus became 30 years of age and began His public ministry.

It was not God that instituted the Holy Days of Christmas or Easter into a church. As we know these Holy Days were not done while any Apostle lived, so can’t we guess who is behind this idea of bringing Christ down here on our level as we get our trees that just stand there while we doll them up so beautifully; then we bow down offering our gifts. Is this the way Christ said to remember and worship Him, or is this those that worship a pagan god, known today to us as Santa Claus – ”Hear ye the word which the Lord speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:
2. Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
3. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
4. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
5. They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good”, Jeremiah 10:1-5.

Celebrating the Birthday of Jesus gives honor and glory
to Christ. Only a Grinch would think otherwise.

Why does man want to bring Him down here to worship Him? Babes believe in “fairy tales”. They believe just about anything you tell them. But when they think they have grown up they continue the pagan custom of worship, but call it Christmas with Jesus, instead of Christmas with Santa Claus. It is inherit in man to want to worship what man wishes to worship, and not God. The Bible warns us against remaining carnal; Acts 15:20, ”But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.” Man continues, as did Israel. We go to the pagan god with our God, to worship on a pagan Holy Day thinking what a great thing it is to place our God beside pagan gods.

Then again Paul tells them (Israel was still Israel in those days), the Jew in Romans 10:6-7, ”But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
7. Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)” Please tell me why the Christian today should want to bring the worship of Jesus in the flesh back down here and bring him again from the dead to worship the man that died, and do it on a pagan Holy Day? Are we not of the Spirit, and worship Him in the Spirit? Philippians 3:3, "For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh." We know Jesus no more in the flesh. We are in the New Testament of His Blood now, and all things are New. Christian faith, ituttut

 

[Alexander]

Again, ituttut, you are not dealing with the Scriptural record of when the Annunciation occurred. Given that evidence, it is not unlikely that Jesus's birth actually occurred in December.

Your speculations about what people who observe Christmas are doing are interesting speculations, but nothing more than that. You're just making it up. I can assure you that I, and the Christians I know, are worshipping in the manner that God prescribes. You shouldn't cast aspersions on things you don't know about it. It is disrespectful of fellow believers.

Alexander

 

[zealouswest]

Regardless, it WAS the RCC that fixed the date in December as the 25th in the 4th century - but she did this reasonably, I believe.

By co-opting a day that other pagans were celebrating which had OVBIOUS, NATURAL connotations to Christ the Messiah, God-with-us, it made the faith easier to understand. Moreover for converts to the faith who wished to still celebrate their own holiday, this made it impossible - for they cannot be in two places at once. It made them choose Christ more fully.

Moreover, this is similar to what Paul did at the areopagus calling the greek pagans Pious for having a temple to an unknown god, and then explained THAT god as the Christian God!

No where does the bible say "thou shalt not celebrate the birth of Christ". No where does it even say "everything you need to know is contained within these pages". There is nothing wrong with Christmas so long as we understand hwo it is about. It is the Mass of Christ.

 

[Eliyahu]

The sixth month is mentioned 2 times in Luke 1
v 24 : Elisabeth hid herself 5 months.
v 26 in the sixth month Angel Gabriel showed up.
v 36: this is sixth month with her.
v 56 Mary abode there with her about 3 months.

If you look at closely, you can find 6th month means the 6th month of pregnancy.

ch 2:8-
shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.

The custom of Israel is to have flock outside the shed, during April-October, and keep them in the shed during November -March.
In December there used to be rainfalls often, read Ezra 10:9. Ninth month means December and it says : trembling because of this matter, and for the great rain.
Around this time it rains, and then later on the cornfield doesn't allow the sheep passing around until its harvest.
In March, it is the season for sheep to give birth to lambs, which allows 1 year old lamb available next year for Passover.

Paul says :
Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years
I am afraid of you, lest I bestowed upon you labor in vain. (Gal 4:10-11)

 

[Alexander]

Zealouswest:

Great post. And you brought up a significant point. The celebration of Christmas is not forbidden. And more importantly, you bring up the issue that the church, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, has the ability to continue to explicate the faith, and to adapt that explication to the times and culture it encounters. St. Paul and his Mars Hill sermon is a great example.

I think that many who want to debunk Chrismas are, in reality, using it as a wedge issue to covertly attack Christians who are not Baptists, especially those in the historic churches (Catholic, Lutheran, Anglican, Orthodox). Frankly, the anti-Catholic bias on this board (and by extension, the other historic, orthodox communions) is disturbing. I thought that type of thinking had been put to rest a couple of generations ago.

Alexander

 

[Eliyahu]

Condemning Pagan Worship is not judging brother. Was Jeremiah wrong when he condemned the worship of Queen of Heaven (Jere 44:15-25)?

People try to bring in what is neither taught nor practised in the Bible.

 

[padredurand]

People try to bring in what is neither taught nor practised in the Bible.

Or to ignore the holidays that are taught and practiced in the Bible...

Wherefore they called these days Purim after the name of Pur. Therefore for all the words of this letter, and of that which they had seen concerning this matter, and which had come unto them, (27) The Jews ordained, and took upon them, and upon their seed, and upon all such as joined themselves unto them, so as it should not fail, that they would keep these two days according to their writing, and according to their appointed time every year; (28) And that these days should be remembered and kept throughout every generation, every family, every province, and every city; and that these days of Purim should not fail from among the Jews, nor the memorial of them perish from their seed.
Esther 9:26-28 KJV

I am "joined unto" the Jews through my mother's grandparents and through my Savior Jesus Christ. See you in March. I'll be the one eating the hamantashen.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Alexander:
I thought that type of thinking had been put to rest a couple of generations ago.

It did when the Puritans went by the wayside.

 

[Bro. James]

Somebody said "Christmas ought to be celebrated by Christians".

To put it more exacting: The Mass of Christ ought to be celebrated by Catholicism and her daughters.

There are several of us out here who still regard the Mass as a pagan abomination in any way shape form or fashion.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by Alexander:
Again, ituttut, you are not dealing with the Scriptural record of when the Annunciation occurred. Given that evidence, it is not unlikely that Jesus's birth actually occurred in December.

Your speculations about what people who observe Christmas are doing are interesting speculations, but nothing more than that. You're just making it up. I can assure you that I, and the Christians I know, are worshipping in the manner that God prescribes. You shouldn't cast aspersions on things you don't know about it. It is disrespectful of fellow believers.

Alexander

I appreciate your reply and know you believe as you will Alexander, but is quoting scripture “making it up”? If you are worshipping in the manner prescribed by God, then please show scripture from His Word, and not from the word of man.

I quoted scripture, and you answer in platitudes. Since when did exhorting with scripture, rightly divided, become disrespectful – Romans 4:8? I am not teaching as those who wish to learn pay attention to what is said. Teaching is turned to exhortation, backed by His Word; I exhorted as I furnished you with scripture from His Word.

I’m sorry your feelings have been hurt, but was Jesus “mealy mouthed”, Peter, Paul? They all taught for teachers teach, preachers preach, but do the people hear? If not then we are to “exhort”. You joined in with labeling me “grinch”, but I take no offense to that term from Christian friend Ed Edwards or you, for I once stood those shoes. I listened to His Word as those that understood taught. But exhortation was needed first for I was not listening. Matthew 10:27 exhorts every one of us to tell the world about Jesus. Should we tell the world Jesus asked us to remember Him on the day He became flesh? If He did, I wonder why He didn’t tell us the date we were to do it? When was God my Savior born, or on what day was my Lord Jesus Christ, the Word born? To use the words of Job 38:4, ”Where wast thou”? The Word was before becoming flesh.

How can I be offended by others in the Body of Christ? They are saved sinners just like me, but it is some of the beliefs of Christians that are offensive, not the person that is saved. I do not compare myself with others, as they compare among themselves. If I did, and believed what many Christians believe, I would join the Catholic church, for almost all in the recognized Christian churches believe the same as the Catholic. For those that do not listen to His Word, exhortation is the only avenue left.

Hold up your hand, you that believe in the “great commission” for in it tells how the Jew is to be saved.

Hold up your hand, you that believe what the Catholic church says about Christmas. That church instituted a day of the choosing of idol worshippers, knowing the day was in error for no one knows the day Jesus was born. They also (hierarchy) knew the month was wrong.

Easter. The Mother church of the churches instituted a day and proclaimed it the day Jesus was crucified. Again they bowed to the idol worshippers, not caring if scripture would support a Friday crucifixion. I don’t know if the hierarchy knew they were wrong, but they were, for they did not believe the words that Jesus spoke while on earth.

Enlightening in love is spreading the knowledge of His Word from heaven – Ephesians 1:17-18. This is of the “grace commission”, not the “great commission”. Christian faith, ituttut

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by zealouswest:
Regardless, it WAS the RCC that fixed the date in December as the 25th in the 4th century - but she did this reasonably, I believe.

By co-opting a day that other pagans were celebrating which had OVBIOUS, NATURAL connotations to Christ the Messiah, God-with-us, it made the faith easier to understand. Moreover for converts to the faith who wished to still celebrate their own holiday, this made it impossible - for they cannot be in two places at once. It made them choose Christ more fully.

Am I misreading, or did you mistype, or are you stating those of that church were pagan – “By co-opting a day that other pagans were celebrating”? Regardless the Word tells us there is to be no God above, or brought to be beside Him.

Moreover, this is similar to what Paul did at the areopagus calling the greek pagans Pious for having a temple to an unknown god, and then explained THAT god as the Christian God!

But Paul didn’t offer to accept their god/s. They did not accept the preaching of Paul, so he left them in their ignorance, but some paid attention and wished to know more of the God of Paul, and followed him. They were leaving their god/s for God. They understood their god would not be brought along side of Paul’s God.

No where does the bible say "thou shalt not celebrate the birth of Christ". No where does it even say "everything you need to know is contained within these pages". There is nothing wrong with Christmas so long as we understand hwo it is about. It is the Mass of Christ.

Very true. It has to do with the Catholic church, the Mass. Isn’t the Mass for the dead? This is confusion. If a right thinking church wishes to worship a dead man, then shouldn’t ChristMas denote His death, and Easter His birth? Eggs and Easter bunnies are about birth and not death.

Do we worship a dead man on the Cross? God forbid. He is alive. He has always lived. God was not born, and God did not die. The Word became flesh, but the flesh was not God, the flesh was flesh of a man from a woman that housed God the Word, the only Begotten Son of God the Father, Jesus Christ. God became as a man, and experienced death as a man, but God did not die, for if He did then He was born. Christian faith, ituttut

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:
The sixth month is mentioned 2 times in Luke 1
v 24 : Elisabeth hid herself 5 months.
v 26 in the sixth month Angel Gabriel showed up.
v 36: this is sixth month with her.
v 56 Mary abode there with her about 3 months.

If you look at closely, you can find 6th month means the 6th month of pregnancy.

ch 2:8-
shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.

The custom of Israel is to have flock outside the shed, during April-October, and keep them in the shed during November -March.
In December there used to be rainfalls often, read Ezra 10:9. Ninth month means December and it says : trembling because of this matter, and for the great rain.
Around this time it rains, and then later on the cornfield doesn't allow the sheep passing around until its harvest.
In March, it is the season for sheep to give birth to lambs, which allows 1 year old lamb available next year for Passover.

Paul says :
Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years
I am afraid of you, lest I bestowed upon you labor in vain. (Gal 4:10-11)

You do believe and understand His Word. It will be counted to you in tht day. Christian faith, ituttut