Cessationism in 1Corinthians 13:8

[percho]

Does the following need to take place before being face to face?

And not only so, but also we ourselves, having the first-fruit of the Spirit, we also ourselves in ourselves do groan, adoption expecting -- the redemption of our body; for in hope we were saved, and hope beheld is not hope; for what any one doth behold, why also doth he hope for it? and if what we do not behold we hope for, through continuance we expect it. Rom 8:23-25

Is the hope spoken of redemption of the body, with a face?

Will that be about as, "perfect," as it gets?

then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be; 1 Thes 4:17

18 so, then, comfort ye one another in these words.

 

[37818]

The cessationalists are, indeed, wrong to identify "that which is perfect " as this is not the point of the passage.

The "that which is perfect" in verse 10 is explicitly a what brings an end to a that which is "in part."

 

[JonC]

The "that which is perfect" in verse 10 is explicitly a what brings an end to a that which is "in part."

I think that which is imperfect simply has no purpose when the perfect comes.

My point is that Paul is offering a principle, not claiming a specific perfect thing to come.

 

[Van]

I think that which is imperfect simply has no purpose when the perfect comes.

My point is that Paul is offering a principle, not claiming a specific perfect thing to come.

I agree with the OP view, that "when the perfect comes" refers to the Second Coming of Christ. However, when arriving at that conclusion consider that in some regard, every born anew believer is spiritually enrolled in heaven (Hebrews 12:23) and has been, past tense, made perfect. Second consider how the guy taken to Hades (Luke 16:27-28) has less "partial knowledge" than those living because he wants to send a warning message. My point is we should consider as many alternate views as we can conceive, when coming down on the side of one of them.

 

[37818]

I think that which is imperfect . . .

". . . in part . . ."? James 1:17 and James 1:25. ". . . perfect . . ."

My point is that Paul is offering a principle, not claiming a specific perfect thing to come.

The "now" and "then." 1 Corithians 13:12, ". . . face to face . . ."

 

[37818]

The "now" and "then." 1 Corithians 13:12, ". . . face to face . . ."

Is it agreed that the Apostle Paul is now face to face? Per 2 Corinthians 5:8 so also now per 1 Corinthians 13:12?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I think it should be borne in mind that teleios, translated as 'perfect' in 1 Corinthians 13:10, can also mean 'mature' as in 1 Corinthians 14:20, where the KJV renders it as 'men' in contrast to 'babes.'
In the infancy of the Israelite nation, as it trudged through the wilderness, it needed a variety of special gifts from God in order to survive. There was the manna and quail, the pillar of cloud and light, the feet not swelling and the shoes not wearing out. All these appear to have ceased when Israel entered Canaan - at least, the manna did (Joshua 5:12) and we don't hearof the others.
It may have been the same for the first Christians. They needed various miracles to help keep their faith strong,and prophets prophets until the NT was complete. But at some point the Church was mature enough to manage without them and they ceased.

That is not to say that the miraculous has altogether disappeared. Every time that someone is born again, it is an amazing illustration of the power of God (Ephesians 1:19-20), and in time past we have seen great revivals, many people, including myself have seen remarkable healings in answer to prayer, but nothing like the miracles done by our Lord. I see no indication that the 'signs and wonders' done in Apostolic times remain today.

 

[37818]

I am persuaded that the Apostle Paul is today and has been present with the Lord, meaning he has been "face to face" per 1 Corinthians 13:12 and 2 Corinthians 5:8.

 

[37818]

I think that which is imperfect simply has no purpose when the perfect comes.

Only two gifts were said to be in part. Note what is claimed for James 1:17 and James 1:25. And is the condition for doing away with an in part, in verse 10.

 

[JonC]

Only two gifts were said to be in part. Note what is claimed for James 1:17 and James 1:25. And is the condition for doing away with an in part, in verse 10.

I think you may be taking the verse a bit too legalistically.

Paul's point was the greatest gift being love. He wasn't, IMHO, saying that love is greatest only among tongues and prophesy. Instead he was addressing gifts prized among the Corinthians.

Hope, for example, ends in fruition. Prophesy ends when what is proclaimed is realized. Tongues end when it is no longer testimony for the unbeliever. Teaching ends when the learning is complete.

It is an error to assume Paul is indicating these gifts all end at the same time, or for everybody regardless of circumstance. It is an error because it is reading into the text.

That which is temporary ends when the perfect comes (when the temporary is obsolete). But love endures.

 

[Michael Hollner]

I think it should be borne in mind that teleios, translated as 'perfect' in 1 Corinthians 13:10, can also mean 'mature' as in 1 Corinthians 14:20, where the KJV renders it as 'men' in contrast to 'babes.'
In the infancy of the Israelite nation, as it trudged through the wilderness, it needed a variety of special gifts from God in order to survive. There was the manna and quail, the pillar of cloud and light, the feet not swelling and the shoes not wearing out. All these appear to have ceased when Israel entered Canaan - at least, the manna did (Joshua 5:12) and we don't hearof the others.
It may have been the same for the first Christians. They needed various miracles to help keep their faith strong,and prophets prophets until the NT was complete. But at some point the Church was mature enough to manage without them and they ceased.

That is not to say that the miraculous has altogether disappeared. Every time that someone is born again, it is an amazing illustration of the power of God (Ephesians 1:19-20), and in time past we have seen great revivals, many people, including myself have seen remarkable healings in answer to prayer, but nothing like the miracles done by our Lord. I see no indication that the 'signs and wonders' done in Apostolic times remain today.

'I see no indication that the 'signs and wonders' done in Apostolic times remain today.'

Stay tuned, it's coming soon.... Acts 3:19-21, Matthew 17:11, Acts 2:17-21, James 5:7, Revelation 11:3-13.

 

[percho]

I am persuaded that the Apostle Paul is today and has been present with the Lord, meaning he has been "face to face" per 1 Corinthians 13:12 and 2 Corinthians 5:8.

What is this, "to this self-same thing," YLT from 2 Cor 5:4 speaking of?

How is it different from the, "our earthly house of the tabernacle," of verse one?

Will the, "house not made with hands," of verse 1 be like the, "tabernacle not made with hands," of Heb 9:11 that established Christ as being come chief priest, see also Heb 5:5?

When do you believe one will be clothed in his house,/tabernacle not made with hands and will one need to be, so clothed, in order to see face to face?

 

[37818]

I think you may be taking the verse a bit too legalistically.

No, literally.

It is an error to assume Paul is indicating these gifts all end at the same time, . . .

I only hold those two gifts which were said to be in part were done away with.

 

[37818]

What is this, "to this self-same thing," YLT from 2 Cor 5:4 speaking of?

How is it different from the, "our earthly house of the tabernacle," of verse one?

A good question. But not of the topic of this thread. Verse 5. That we may receive the same immortality as Christ. ". . . God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. . . ." Verse 4, ". . . that mortality might be swallowed up of life. . . ."

 

[percho]

A good question. But not of the topic of this thread. Verse 5. That we may receive the same immortality as Christ. ". . . God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. . . ." Verse 4, ". . . that mortality might be swallowed up of life. . . ."

I was just answering concerning Paul being presently face to face. I do not think he presently is face to face. I believe face to face will take place at the coming of the Lord.

I also believe that is when Paul will experience the perfection of Phil 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

 

[37818]

I was just answering concerning Paul being presently face to face. I do not think he presently is face to face. I believe face to face will take place at the coming of the Lord.

So what does, ". . . to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord . . ." mean?

 

[Van]

To be made perfect might be a poor translation choice in some cases, and as Martin pointed out, being made mature might be the intended message. Another aspect of being made "perfect" is to be made "holy and blameless, thus made alive together with Christ, rather than being spiritually dead, separated from Christ Hebrews 12:23 clearly teaches our spirits have been justified because they have been made perfect.

 

[percho]

So what does, ". . . to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord . . ." mean?

Methinks the following are synonymous relative to, from verse 1, "our earthly house of the tabernacle".

2 Cor 5:4 YLT for we also who are in the tabernacle do groan, being burdened, seeing we wish not to unclothe ourselves, but to clothe ourselves, that the mortal may be swallowed up of the life.
1 Cor 15:54 and when this corruptible may have put on incorruption, and this mortal may have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, 'The Death was swallowed up -- to victory;

Therefore in 2 Cor 5:4 the tabernacle, our earthly house, is the body of 2 Cor 5:6 which is what is spoken of in 1 Cor 15:50 YLT And this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood the reign of God is not able to inherit, nor doth the corruption inherit the incorruption; Yet 2 Cor 5:3 & 4 say we do not want to be found naked, unclothed.

Found when? When we die or at the coming of the Lord?

Phil 3:8,9 YLT yes, indeed, and I count all things to be loss, because of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, because of whom of the all things I suffered loss, and do count them to be refuse, that Christ I may gain, and be found in him, not having my righteousness, which is of law, but that which is through faith of Christ -- the righteousness that is of God by the faith,
2 Tim 4:8 YLT henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of the righteousness that the Lord -- the Righteous Judge -- shall give to me in that day, and not only to me, but also to all those loving his manifestation.

1 Thes 4:13-18 And I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, that ye may not sorrow, as also the rest who have not hope, for if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also God those asleep through Jesus he will bring with him, for this to you we say in the word of the Lord, that we who are living -- who do remain over to the presence of the Lord -- may not precede those asleep, because the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first, then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be; so, then, comfort ye one another in these words.
1 Cor 15:51 lo, I tell you a secret; we indeed shall not all sleep, and we all shall be changed;

Bring with him where and for what purpose????????????? From Rev 20:4 and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

In our house from heaven not made with hands, face to face.

 

[37818]

Methinks the following are synonymous relative to, from verse 1, "our earthly house of the tabernacle".

2 Cor 5:4 YLT for we also who are in the tabernacle do groan, being burdened, seeing we wish not to unclothe ourselves, but to clothe ourselves, that the mortal may be swallowed up of the life.
1 Cor 15:54 and when this corruptible may have put on incorruption, and this mortal may have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, 'The Death was swallowed up -- to victory;

Therefore in 2 Cor 5:4 the tabernacle, our earthly house, is the body of 2 Cor 5:6 which is what is spoken of in 1 Cor 15:50 YLT And this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood the reign of God is not able to inherit, nor doth the corruption inherit the incorruption; Yet 2 Cor 5:3 & 4 say we do not want to be found naked, unclothed.

Found when? When we die or at the coming of the Lord?

Phil 3:8,9 YLT yes, indeed, and I count all things to be loss, because of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, because of whom of the all things I suffered loss, and do count them to be refuse, that Christ I may gain, and be found in him, not having my righteousness, which is of law, but that which is through faith of Christ -- the righteousness that is of God by the faith,
2 Tim 4:8 YLT henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of the righteousness that the Lord -- the Righteous Judge -- shall give to me in that day, and not only to me, but also to all those loving his manifestation.

1 Thes 4:13-18 And I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, that ye may not sorrow, as also the rest who have not hope, for if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also God those asleep through Jesus he will bring with him, for this to you we say in the word of the Lord, that we who are living -- who do remain over to the presence of the Lord -- may not precede those asleep, because the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first, then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be; so, then, comfort ye one another in these words.
1 Cor 15:51 lo, I tell you a secret; we indeed shall not all sleep, and we all shall be changed;

Bring with him where and for what purpose????????????? From Rev 20:4 and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

In our house from heaven not made with hands, face to face.

Do not confuse face to face presently in Heaven for believers' out of one's body with being with Christ at His second appearing in our body. Hebrews 9:28, 1!John 3:2.

 

[percho]

Do not confuse face to face presently in Heaven for believers' out of one's body with being with Christ at His second appearing in our body. Hebrews 9:28, 1!John 3:2.

I find one being, out of body and face to face with someone else, very confusing.

Kind of like one out of body, presently sitting at the feet of Jesus. Sitting on their what?