Change of man's MORAL nature in the Fall

[JonC]

That is purely your own imagination at work because I have already flatly denied that charge and demonstrated what we "put on" is not the pre-fallen condition but a SUPERIOR condition and union. It is superior as it is not mutable like the pre-fallen condition but immutable. It is superior because it results in inability to die and prepares us to living in a superior world to the prefallen world.

So, your charges are baseless drawn from pure imagination. You can invent accusations all day long but it does not make imaginative accusations any more true. I supplied the scriptures.

No, actually the charge stands (I think you are missing the point).

You are presenting a "salvation" that consists of man being restored to his previous state in terms of nature. Yes, I grant that you teach that this nature becomes immutable, but that does not negate the error of looking to Adam's original nature rather than Christ. It assumes a theory that is not present in Scripture.

I am not trying to get you to change your theories. I am only pointing out that the narrative you are presenting is forced upon Scripture rather than drawn out of it.

We are made new creations in Christ. Pre-Fall Adam never had the relationship that Christians will have with God through Christ. Adam was never "of the spirit". Christ is the Firstborn - and no, this does not mean "like pre-Fall Adam except immutable".

 

[HankD]

The Word of God traces the moral condition, the spiritual condition, the unregenerate condition of all mankind not to our own person or actions but to the person and act of Adam (Rom. 5:12-19).

Hence, the state of being "alienated from God" and in "darkness" and "being past feeling" and "given over unto....all uncleaness" did not originate with Post-Adamic man but originated with Adam's sin and in Adam's person when he sinned.

These conditions of the unregenerate state of man described by Paul but originate in the person of Adam are descriptive of his SPIRITUAL CONDITION as much as our spiritual condition. These are all descriptives of what it means to be in a state of SPIRITUAL SEPARATION from God. However, such things are impossible unless first the very reverse was true in the prefallen SPIRITUAL CONDITION of Adam. It requires LIFE for death to occur. It requires LIGHT for darkness to occur. It requires HOLINESS for "uncleaness" to occur. It requires LOVE for enmity ("being past feeling, hardness of heart) to occur. It requires SPIRITUAL UNION for spiritual separation to occur. Hence, a CHANGE OF MORAL NATURE occured at the fall.

Hence, Paul's description of the unregenerate state of ALL MANKIND must first be the unregenerate state of fallen Adam. Here is Pauls description of the unregenerate state:

Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: {blindness: or, hardness }
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. - Eph. 4:18-19

This state did not begin with post-Adamic men but with Adam at the point of his fall. These are descriptions of a state of spiritual separation from God as,

1. God is LIGHT - "darkened"
2. God is LIFE - "alienated from the life of God"
3. God is LOVE - "being past feeling"
4. God is HOLY - "given themselves over...to all uncleaness"

These are the direct results of Adam's sin in the person of Adam in the day he sinned. He suffered Spiritual separation from God and you cannot be separated from something you were not in union with.

Moreover, the whole human nature in its undivided state existed and acted in the Person of Adam when Adam sinned and that is what Paul means when he says "for all have sinned" (Rom.5:12) and that is what he is arguing and proving in verses 13-14 showing that no other law could justify death in human beings between Adam and Moses other than violation of Genesis 2:17. Hence, all mankind existed and sinned as one undivided human nature in Adam and therefore death is justified even from conception in the womb for all of mankind. Thus, the fallen human nature of Adam is what is "passed" down from Adam to all mankind which is a STATE OF DEATH or spiritual separation from God that justifies sin of a baby in the womb of the mother.

Yes and there is another "passed" to reverse Romans 5:12

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

 

[The Biblicist]

The idea that our sin nature came into existence by God creating our spirit at conception is unbiblical for several reasons. First, it denies that our conditionn is directly due to Adam's action as the scriptures clearly state "through the offence of one many be dead......by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation.....by one man's disobedience many were made sinners."

Second, it denies that the sin nature or the state of death or the state of spiritual separation was "passed" to all mankind but rather created by God.

Third, it is a philosophical contradiction. If God creates each human's spirit at conception and if it is the contact of that spirit with the body that makes it sinful, then the sin nature must already be present in the material body which is a self-contradiction as the sin nature by definition is SPIRITUAL and not material as morality or immorality have to do with spiritual not material.

The sin nature is "passed" down from Adam to all mankind through procreation and it is found in the "seed" of the male and procreation is of the whole human nature instead of parts of it just as it is in all other living things - there is no partial reproduction of like kind but full reproduction of like kind. Other genetic qualities in the seed determine individual personalities.

This theory has God repeating original creation of man by repeatedly breathing into a body the spirit thus making the creation of man unfinished and ongoing. Human nature was created once and for all by God and then like all other living beings fully reproduced after its own kind instead repoducing half-humans and thus non-human beings.

 

[The Biblicist]

No, actually the charge stands (I think you are missing the point).

You are presenting a "salvation" that consists of man being restored to his previous state in terms of nature. Yes, I grant that you teach that this nature becomes immutable, but that does not negate the error of looking to Adam's original nature rather than Christ. It assumes a theory that is not present in Scripture.

Jesus is called the second "ADAM" which in and of itself repudiates your view entirely. If your view was correct the very last thing Jesus would be called is "Adam" because that associates him directly with the first Adam except superior to him. If your view was correct there would be simply Adam versus Christ and "in Adam" versus "in Christ" not "first" versus "second" ADAM.

Secondly, the new nature is not merely superior because it is immutable in its union with God but it is immutable in its righteousness and there are not two or more kinds of righteousness but only one kind - God's kind and Adam was created "upright" in the moral image of God but only lacked immutability.

 

[The Biblicist]

Yes and there is another "passed" to reverse Romans 5:12

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

I agree. But note the words carefully that it is passed "from death" (state of death = spiritual separation) "unto life" (state of union with God). I am not saying this because I think you disagree but merely to emphasize what I at least think we agree on.

 

[The Biblicist]

We lost in Adam a sinless creation but one that was mutable but we gained in Christ a new creation that is immutable. We lost righteousness in Adam but one that was mutable but we gained in Christ immutable righteousness. We lost life in Adam but one that was mutable, but we gained in Christ immutable life. We lost in Adam the tree of life which was removable, but we gained in Christ the tree of life which is unmovable.

The Bible makes a direct comparison between the first prefallen creation and the new creation and there is only one difference - the new is better. Both are sinless creations. Both have the tree of life. Both have a sinless mankind living in it. Both are created by God. Both are paradises. So what is lost is restored, but only in BETTER condition.

 

[JonC]

Jesus is called the second "ADAM" which in and of itself repudiates your view entirely. If your view was correct the very last thing Jesus would be called is "Adam" because that associates him directly with the first Adam except superior to him. If your view was correct there would be simply Adam versus Christ and "in Adam" versus "in Christ" not "first" versus "second" ADAM.

Secondly, the new nature is not merely superior because it is immutable in its union with God but it is immutable in its righteousness and there are not two or more kinds of righteousness but only one kind - God's kind and Adam was created "upright" in the moral image of God but only lacked immutability.

Jesus is called the "Last Adam", but this is not a return to the "original Adam". It is speaking of a "new man", or a "new creation". This is obvious in that the entire purpose of redemption is that Christ will be the Firstborn among many brethern.

Your focus is too anthropologic and too inclined towards "returning to the Garden" (which is very similar to classic ANE paganism). In Christ we go beyond the "Garden" and to the very Throne.

Basically, I disagree with the narrative you create to frame the passages you believe supports your view. I believe your description here a "mythology" in the context it is anecdotal to Scripture. We are not going to change each others minds, but I think it important to realize that the passages you post are far from proving your position correct.

 

[JonShaff]

Jesus is called the "Last Adam", but this is not a return to the "original Adam". It is speaking of a "new man", or a "new creation". This is obvious in that the entire purpose of redemption is that Christ will be the Firstborn among many brethern.

Your focus is too anthropologic and too inclined towards "returning to the Garden" (which is very similar to classic ANE paganism). In Christ we go beyond the "Garden" and to the very Throne.

Basically, I disagree with the narrative you create to frame the passages you believe supports your view. I believe your description here a "mythology" in the context it is anecdotal to Scripture. We are not going to change each others minds, but I think it important to realize that the passages you post are far from proving your position correct.

Amen.

 

[HankD]

I agree. But note the words carefully that it is passed "from death" (state of death = spiritual separation) "unto life" (state of union with God). I am not saying this because I think you disagree but merely to emphasize what I at least think we agree on.

Absolutely.

 

[The Biblicist]

Jesus is called the "Last Adam", but this is not a return to the "original Adam". It is speaking of a "new man", or a "new creation". This is obvious in that the entire purpose of redemption is that Christ will be the Firstborn among many brethern.

Your focus is too anthropologic and too inclined towards "returning to the Garden" (which is very similar to classic ANE paganism). In Christ we go beyond the "Garden" and to the very Throne.

Basically, I disagree with the narrative you create to frame the passages you believe supports your view. I believe your description here a "mythology" in the context it is anecdotal to Scripture. We are not going to change each others minds, but I think it important to realize that the passages you post are far from proving your position correct.

You are perverting my view in order to condemn it. My view is not "return to the original Adam" that is your perversion of my view. I believe no such thing. My view is not "returning to the Garden" that is your perversion of my view. I believe no such thing. My view is not about returning to the pre-fallen creation at all but that is your perversion of my view. Everything about my view is an UPGRADE and NEW and BETTER.

You may claim "the passages" I post are "far from proving" my position but your claim is nothing but hot air without any evidence. Try proving the passages do not support my view! Unlike you, I don't simply assert my views but provide scriptural evidence for them. Where is your evidence? Where is your evidence that I am misintepreting these scriptures? Where? Zilch, nada, none is the answer.

 

[The Biblicist]

Amen.

I give you the same challenge. It is easy to say "Amen" but it quite another thing to prove the Biblical evidence I provided is being misintepreted. Back up your hot air by evidence. He hasn't can you? He had to pervert my view in order to condemn it! What are you going to do? The same thing?

 

[The Biblicist]

So far, I have been met with HOT AIR but not a scrap of Biblical evidence to support their hot air.

So far, I have been met with PERVERSIONS of my view but not a scrap of Biblical evidence to prove my interpetations of scriptures that I do provide (they don't) are wrong. When will the HOT AIR cease and Biblical scholarship begin????? I await!

 

[The Biblicist]

Again,

1. Solomon says Adam was created "upright" and that does not refer to his physical posture but to his moral nature. Scripture says Adam was made "LIKE US" and "IN OUR IMAGE" and that at minimum includes that "upright" moral condition. This is based on clear scripture (Gen. 1:26; Eccles. 12:7). By sin man fell from that upright moral condition into an immoral condition - called death - spiritual separation from God which by nature such separation from God IS sin - thus a STATE OF SIN(Gen. 2:17).
   
   And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:... - Gen. 1:26a
   
   But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. -Gen. 2:17
   
   Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions. - Eccl. 7:29
   
   
   New Birth not merely restores spiritual union with God, not merely restores the moral image of God but does restores to a SUPERIOR union which is not mutable, and superior moral image which is not mutable in order to populate a SUPERIOR creation to come and this is based on clear explicit Scripture:
   
   And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. - Eph. 4:24
   
   And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: - Col. 3:10
   
   Furthermore, the unregenerate condition is described by Paul as being in a state "without God" and a STATE OF SIN due to spiritual separation from God and all based on explicit Scripture:
   
   That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: - Eph. 2:12
   
   Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: {blindness: or, hardness }
   19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
   
   After the fall, fallen man was beget after the fallen Adam's image rather than the image of God:
   
   And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:...and he died......and he died....and he died.....and he died....and he died.....and he died.
   
   Life was the result of being made in the image of God, Death is the result of being in the image of the fallen Adam because death was "passed" down through the male seed.
   
   My view is not based upon mere myth or assumptions but upon clear explicit scriptures whether or not you agree with my interpretation of those scriptures. I think I can defend my interpretations and demonstrate the truth of my position.
   
   
2. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: - Rom. 5:12
   
   Sin and death "entered the world" by the act of one man - Adam. When God had finished his creation on the sixth day, there was no sin, death and Satan in that world or else he could not say everything was "very good" (Gen. 1:31). Lucifer the unfallen angel existed on that day. Man in the image of God existed on that day.

 

[The Biblicist]

Again,

These conditions of the unregenerate state of man described by Paul but originate in the person of Adam are descriptive of his SPIRITUAL CONDITION as much as our spiritual condition. These are all descriptives of what it means to be in a state of SPIRITUAL SEPARATION from God. However, such things are impossible unless first the very reverse was true in the prefallen SPIRITUAL CONDITION of Adam. It requires LIFE for death to occur. It requires LIGHT for darkness to occur. It requires HOLINESS for "uncleaness" to occur. It requires LOVE for enmity ("being past feeling, hardness of heart) to occur. It requires SPIRITUAL UNION for spiritual separation to occur. Hence, a CHANGE OF MORAL NATURE occured at the fall.

Hence, Paul's description of the unregenerate state of ALL MANKIND must first be the unregenerate state of fallen Adam. Here is Pauls description of the unregenerate state:

Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: {blindness: or, hardness }
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. - Eph. 4:18-19

This state did not begin with post-Adamic men but with Adam at the point of his fall. These are descriptions of a state of spiritual separation from God as,

1. God is LIGHT - "darkened"
2. God is LIFE - "alienated from the life of God"
3. God is LOVE - "being past feeling"
4. God is HOLY - "given themselves over...to all uncleaness"

These are the direct results of Adam's sin in the person of Adam in the day he sinned. He suffered Spiritual separation from God and you cannot be separated from something you were not in union with.

Moreover, the whole human nature in its undivided state existed and acted in the Person of Adam when Adam sinned and that is what Paul means when he says "for all have sinned" (Rom.5:12) and that is what he is arguing and proving in verses 13-14 showing that no other law could justify death in human beings between Adam and Moses other than violation of Genesis 2:17. Hence, all mankind existed and sinned as one undivided human nature in Adam and therefore death is justified even from conception in the womb for all of mankind. Thus, the fallen human nature of Adam is what is "passed" down from Adam to all mankind which is a STATE OF DEATH or spiritual separtion from God that justifies sin of a baby in the womb of the mother.

 

[The Biblicist]

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;- tit. 3:5

He is speaking of the internal regenerating work of the Holy Spirit as a RENEWAL. The greek term used is "anakainosis" which is made up of the preposition "ana" which means "again" and the noun "kaino" to renovate as in an upgrade.

Adam's spirit existed in a mutable state of union with God and in a mutable state of righteousness. WE DO NOT RETURN TO THAT PRE-FALLEN STATE OF SPIRIT but we get an UPGRADED spirit that is immutably righteous and immutably confirmed in spiritual union with God. But the MORAL IMAGE is the SAME - because God's moral image does not change, we are just now confirmed immutably in that SAME moral image.

Our "spirit' is the very SAME human spirit that Adam received but it is UPGRADED in its moral condition with regard to immutable righteousness and immutable union with God all due to being "in Christ" (meaning in spiritual union with Christ who is God).

 

[Van]

Confession is good for your soul, thank you!

That is Van quoting Biblicist, thus blatant falsehood at the start.

Parrots repeat things but that does not make them true. Van says "we are made sinners at conception" but Paul says by one man's act of disobedience (not God's act) we were made sinners. Van makes God a partner with iniquity as he blames God for creating the human spirit "in" iniquity whereas Paul says "death" (the state of sin) is "PASSED" not something newly created by God at each conception.

Rom 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Rom 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Psa 51:5
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.

Our fallen corrupt spiritually dead state is passed to all people spiritually, just as it was to Eve. God is the Creator, and because of Adam's sin, His curse made all mankind sinners from conception. We were conceived in a sinful state of separation, spiritually dead and spiritually corrupted. Our human spirit is not passed to us by our fathers, it is formed within us by God.

 

[JonShaff]

I give you the same challenge. It is easy to say "Amen" but it quite another thing to prove the Biblical evidence I provided is being misintepreted. Back up your hot air by evidence. He hasn't can you? He had to pervert my view in order to condemn it! What are you going to do? The same thing?

Greetings, brother!

I'll share a few scriptures...

Rev. 21:5
5 And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

2 Corinthians 5:17
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

1 Corinthians 15
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
(The same "natural" man that cannot discern the things of God? I digress...)

Titus 1
2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Adam's "Image" wasn't the image of Christ *minus* an immutability.

Christ humbled himself, took on Flesh (wow!), lived perfectly righteous, Was Glorified and then Births the New Creation after His Image. This is something that the pre-fallen adamic image could never have as it was susceptible to temptation and sin (obviously) and Death. Was Adam righteous before the "fall"?

 

[The Biblicist]

Greetings, brother!

I'll share a few scriptures...

Rev. 21:5
5 And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

2 Corinthians 5:17
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

1 Corinthians 15
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
(The same "natural" man that cannot discern the things of God? I digress...)

Titus 1
2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

You are simply repeating exactly what my view states. My view has no return to a prefallen state but a new IMPROVED - UPGRADED state. However, it is the SAME man but an UPGRADED man. It is the SAME righteousness but an UPGRADED righteousness (immutable). It is the SAME spiritual union but an UPGRADED union (immutable).

Adam's "Image" wasn't the image of Christ *minus* an immutability.

You gave no scripture to support this assertion! Why? Because there is no scripture to support this assertion. But there is clear scripture to repudiate it - Eccles. 7:29 and the term "upright" and Genesis 1:26 and the words "IN OUR IMAGE" and "LIKE US" which Paul defines as immutably including his MORAL nature (Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10). There are not two different kinds of righteousness or two kinds of righteous moral natures but ONE and God created man with that one kind of moral image that one kind of righteousness which his SIN violated. Sin is the violation of God's law (1 Jn. 3:6) and prior to Adam's sin he was sinless - mutably sinless but sinless. Meaning his moral nature was ONE with God's moral nature. Your assertion not only has nothing in scripture to support it but it is totally repudiated by Scripture.

 

[The Biblicist]

How can Adam SIN at a point in time if he were not SINLESS prior to that point in time or "upright" or "LIKE US" with regard to his moral nature?? How? How is "sinless" defined? It is defined by the Law of God (1 Jn. 3:6). What is the Law of God? It is the revelation of the knowledge of good and evil according to God's own moral nature but in written form.

Adam's moral nature CHANGED when he sinned from a SINLESS moral nature to a SINFUL moral nature or "sin" has absolutely no meaning at all!!

You do agree that he did not sin until he disobeyed God's law spelled out in Genesis 2:17 right? YOu do agree violating that law he sinned right? Therefore, he was SINLESS prior to that act. How do you define SINLESS if not a moral state without sin?

 

[JonShaff]

You gave no scripture to support this assertion! Why? Because there is no scripture to support this assertion. But there is clear scripture to repudiate it - Eccles. 7:29 and the term "upright" and Genesis 1:26 and the words "IN OUR IMAGE" and "LIKE US" which Paul defines as immutably including his MORAL nature

Define "upright"
Define "moral"

From what i see in Genesis 1:26 (unless you put a prophetic twist on it and allow for it to mean that God's "Image" will eventually be the image of the Risen Christ) the Image was for "Authority" to have "Dominion" on the Earth. Morality is a construct of MAN deciding what is "right" and "wrong". God works in terms of "Righteous" and "Unrighteous". These are the only absolutes.

What do you mean Adam was a "Moral" person? The First decision that was made, regarding acting towards God's Nature and commands, Adam and Eve Sinned. Adam did not know "Good" and "evil" so how can you assert he was "moral"?