To me, this is simply philosophical. I'm saying it's Totally new, as per Scripture. You are saying it's like buying a Car and putting a turbo kit on it. I'm saying it's not even a car anymore.
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Change of man's MORAL nature in the Fall
- Thread starter The Biblicist
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You make helpful observations...one thing that strikes me as interesting, is the Fact that Adam actually added more of the image of God onto his person by knowing good and evil now, per God's statement in Genesis 3:22.
It translates the Hebrew word Yashar and that term is translated "righeous" 9 times and conveys moral values.
A value that is either right or wrong, good or evil.
Tell me what attribute of God is mutable? Is his holiness mutable? His holiness constitutes the character of his moral nature - is that mutable? Can we put a "prophetic twist" on that? The moral "Image" of God is as immutable in Genesis 1:26 as in Ephesians 4:24 and Colossians 3:10 unless you "put a prophetic twist on it" making it mutable????? So, God's moral image does not change between Genesis and Colossians does it? His moral image is the ONLY moral nature He defines as "upright" or "righteous" or "holy" and Adam was made in his MORAL ("upright") image.
How do you define "sin"? Is not sin the transgression of God's Law (1 Jn. 3:6) Is not sin coming short of the "glory of God" or coming short of his RIGHTEOUS MORAL NATURE (Rom. 3:21, 23)???
Tell me at what point in time did Adam become a sinner? Before he ate or when he ate? If he were not a sinner before he ate was he not SINLESS? How do you define sinless by Biblical definition? Is it not "be ye therefore PERFECT EVEN AS your Father is PERFECT"? Is it not "Be ye holy EVEN AS God is holy"? Is it not keeping the principle of the law in spirit and words and actions? Sure, Adam's sinless state was MUTABLE but it was real nevertheless. Hence, it was INFERIOR to sinlessness "in Christ" because that is immutable. Is some light beginning to drawn???
I see, "right" and "wrong" are men's moral values but not God's as works in terms of "righteous" and "unrighteous"???????? So men are moral but God is not moral as he does not deal in "right" and "wrong." I can't even keep a straight face reading this nonsense. How can you be serious and write such nonsense?????? You are confused. God condemns man's moral values of "right' and "wrong" ONLY because they are lower than his standards of right and wrong! Adam was made "upright" by God's standard of right - mutable - but still right.
Really, Adam was not informed by God what was wrong for him to do in Genesis 2:17? You really beleive that? In Genesis 3 he learned by EXPERIENTIAL KNOWLEGE but he full well knew and understood what God had said was wrong or else he could not have sinned WILLFULLY and KNOWINGLY (1 Tim. 2:12-13).
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So, you don't believe in the resurrection of the body that went down into the grave - only upgraded?? The body that went down in the grave was the Adamic body, but now upgraded. You have to deny the resurrection to support your theory.
You simply don't understand the word knowledge in Genesis 3:22. Read my previous post.
Your view is that man was created "upright", which you interpret as being morally good. This is based on one verse in Ecclesiastes. And it's not clear that the verse is referring to Adam.
Then you say that because Adam fell, his nature changed to being not moral or not upright. Yet there are dozens and dozens of verses alluding to man being upright since the Fall.
Now, it may well be that Adam's nature changed from being morally good to being immoral (and I tend to agree with you), but there is not one verse that explicitly says this. All we know for sure is that Adam's nature changed in that because he partook of the forbidden fruit, he was now able to tell good from evil.
I'm saying that the "natural" and the "Spiritual" are two different things as Paul states in 1 Corinthians 15. Christ took on the Natural Body and Ascended with a Spiritual Body.
But what does that mean? The Adamic man is soul centered and soul driven (became a living soul). Even as regenerated man we are constantly PUTTING ON the new man(inward man; new man) and PUTTING off the old man in our soul as the soul is the ADMINISTRATIVE CENTER. We are constantly attempting to walk in the spirit. Even Christ was soul centered until he sufficiently grew in wisdom and knowledge and self-consciousness of his divine nature (which occurred at an early age). You were not self-conscious of yourself fully until an early age. Jesus still was subjected to suffering, pain, hunger and death before the glorification of his body.
The resurrected body is SPIRIT centered as the Spirit is the ADMINISTRATIVE center of control and direction and is not subject to suffering, pain, hunger or death.
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No, I provided four verses (Gen. 1:26; Eccles. 7:29; Ephes. 4:24; Col. 3:10) and in another post added Titus 3:5. My line of argument is that God has a moral nature thus a moral image and man was made in that image. Second, Ecclesiastes specifically states "God made man" and the only man he made was Adam as all others are by procreation.
1. It is not an "improved or upgraded state" but a NEW CREATION.
2. It is a different man - not an upgraded man but a NEW man, made new in Christ.
3. It is in one sense the same righteousness (it is the righteousness of God). It is not, however, a moral righteousness but the righteousness of God manifested APART FROM the law. It is a NEW CREATION.
4. It is not the same spiritual union. It is a NEW UNION of mankind and God through Christ.
More hot air without a shred of scriptural evidence. Because the upgrade - immutable righteousnes - is by divine fiat
Because the spiritual union is by divine fiat and is immutable
More hot air without a single shred of scriptural support. Adam's righteousness was God's righteousness. Christ's righeousness was the righteousness of God - both equally derived from God's nature but Adam's was mutable.
More hot air wihtout a single shred of scriptural support. It is the very same union as union with God is spiritual and Adam received it by a creative act of God and so do we but ours is not mutable.
The difference lies in the Creative nature of our spiritual nature versus the creative nature of Adam's spiritual nature.
Gen 1:26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
Verse says that man was created in God's image, which I take to mean we are thinking, rational, decision making, spirtual entities. "Come let us reason together" comes to mind. Animals are not rational beings. They do not have communion with God.
God is holy. Being holy means you are moral, but being moral does not mean you are holy. Adam was not created holy. He had the capacity to sin.
Eph 4:21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,
23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.
Col 3:9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds,
10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,
If you have been justified by Christ you have the ability to "put on Christ" or put on the "new man". Put aside the old man, put on the new man. This "new man" is not the same thing as the pre-fall Adam. Adam was not justified by Christ.
The "image" of God covers a variety of things. But Ephesians 4:24 explicitly that "image' in moral terms "in true righteousness and holiness." God's image did not change between Genesis and Colossians. God made man "upright" which is translated "righteous" 9 times.
Moral refers to values that are represented by terms "right" and "wrong". Hence, a moral being can be operating in the wrong but still moral in contradiction to holiness. But Adam did not operate in the wrong prior to Genesis 3 did he? He operated within the right. He had the capacity for right and wrong and that is a moral capacity. He was created with an "upright" nature in keeping with the image of God which is a moral image defined by righeousness or holiness. "Moral" is not synonymous with holiness but may include or exclude it. However, moral is inclusive of right and wrong and capacity to express either one.
You are mistaken. He could not be "upright" without moral capacity of nature. He was created in God's "image" Paul demands that image includes a moral value defined as "true righteousness and holiness". Adam could not have sinned without having moral capacity for right and wrong. Before he sinned he was sinless! How does scripture define sinless?
The texts below repudiate your conclusions unless you believe God's moral nature is mutable? The "image" in these texts is God's image and it is described in moral terms or values. Adam was created in that "image" thus with a moral nature like unto God's "upright" or "righeous" or "holy" but a mutable moral nature that could be expressed in the value and terms of unrighteousness, evil, sin, wrong.
Eph 4:21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,
23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.
Col 3:9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds,
10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,
The only difference in its moral nature is immutability which the creative act of God distinguished from that of Adam's created moral image. It moral value of righteousness is derived from the same God and the same image of God.
MORAL
Being "MORAL" is simply the ability to express or operate according moral values of right and wrong. Moral is not restricted to right and it is not restricted to wrong but is the capacity to express or operate by either or both. God is a moral being who immutably expresses holy values. Man was created with a moral capacity to express either right or wrong but was created righteous and designed to operate in righteousness.
Being "MORAL" is simply the ability to express or operate according moral values of right and wrong. Moral is not restricted to right and it is not restricted to wrong but is the capacity to express or operate by either or both. God is a moral being who immutably expresses holy values. Man was created with a moral capacity to express either right or wrong but was created righteous and designed to operate in righteousness.
Ephesians 4:22-24 is not describing the image of God, it is describing the image of the "new man" that Christians can put on since they've been justified.
No, no, and NO. GOD IS HOLY. God is not merely a "moral being".
I can find dozens of verses that says God is holy. You can't find one that says God is a moral being.
Ephesians 4:24 must be interpreted along with Colossians 3:10 as they are speaking about the very same thing and the "image" of God is explicitly mentioned in Colossians and defined in moral values "in true righteousness and holiness."
God's moral image has not changed since Genesis 1:26 and Adam was created in that "image" and that is precisely why Solomon said "God made man UPRIGHT" (righteous) which is a moral value demanding Adam had a moral nature with moral capacity for right or wrong. However, that moral nature was not immutably confirmed in righteousness as is God's moral nature or as the regenerated nature in redeemed man.
"Holy" refers to his moral character of righteousness. "Moral" merely describes the capacity to express holy or unholy values. God's holiness immutably expressed righteous values.
Look, I can completely drop the word "moral" and simply say God made man with the capacity to express good and evil but created him in a righteous condition.
I can drop the word "nature" and just say God made him righteous without an evil inclination.
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