Changing doctrine:

[robycop3]

Almost from the beginning of my Christian life, I've believed that one must be saved for baptism to be "official". As for babies, remember, David said his illegitimate son by Bathsheba would be in paradise & that Dave himself would join him some day. I believe Dave said this with knowledge conveyed to him earlier by God. (Remember, David was also a prophet.)

I used to attend a SB church, & was married in it, & they believed the same thing about baptism, & that babies didn't know right from wrong.

 

[kyredneck]

No one will get to haven based on whether they were water baptized or not. So confused by this question.

I believe the question was rhetorical.

 

[kyredneck]

Water Baptism indeed is a non salvation doctrine

???

6 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned. Mk 16

38 And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 For to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call unto him.
40 And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation.
41 They then that received his word were baptized: and there were added unto them in that day about three thousand souls. Acts 2

20 that aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water:
21 which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ; 1 Pet 3

 

[JesusFan]

???

6 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned. Mk 16

38 And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 For to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call unto him.
40 And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation.
41 They then that received his word were baptized: and there were added unto them in that day about three thousand souls. Acts 2

20 that aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water:
21 which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ; 1 Pet 3

NOT one person who ever received Lord Jesus and not water baptized shall be lost, but many who received the water baptism just got wet and were still lost!

 

[kyredneck]

NOT one person who ever received Lord Jesus and not water baptized shall be lost, but many who received the water baptism just got wet and were still lost!

Explain the connection of 'saved' with 'baptized' in the passages I cited. There is indeed in scripture a 'saving' in water baptism. You evangelicals have so gommed up the word 'saved' that you always use it in the eternal sense, i.e., saved = going to heaven, or, saved from hell...when it is not the intent from the context.

 

[JesusFan]

Explain the connection of 'saved' with 'baptized' in the passages I cited. There is indeed in scripture a 'saving' in water baptism. You evangelicals have so gommed up the word 'saved' that you always use it in the eternal sense, i.e., saved = going to heaven, or, saved from hell...when it is not the intent from the context.

it does NOT mean what the Oneness pentacostals say it does, as it is not stating sins are remitted once dunked in the water!

 

[robycop3]

Everyone should be baptized ASAP after salvation, but if a saved person dies unbaptized thru no fault of his/her own, that one is still saved. Remember the example of the thief on the cross beside Jesus. He couldn't possibly be baptized, but Jesus saved him anyway because he BELIEVED.

Some use the excuse that this man had been baptized before, but if he had, it wouldn'ta been a Christian baptism, as he wasn't then saved. (Common sense, as, had he already have been saved, he wouldn'ta been a thief.)

 

[kyredneck]

Explain the connection of 'saved' with 'baptized' in the passages I cited.

it does NOT mean what the Oneness pentacostals say it does, as it is not stating sins are remitted once dunked us in the water!

Can’t explain it, can you? To you it must always always mean going to heaven, or, saved from hell.

 

[JesusFan]

Can’t explain it, can you? To you it must always always mean going to heaven, or, saved from hell.

Remission of sins is thru the shed blood of Jesus washing us, not any water!

 

[kyredneck]

Remission of sins is thru the shed blood of Jesus washing us, not any water!

Yea, I know. Still can’t explain it, can you? To you 'saved' must always always mean going to heaven, or, saved from hell. You've gommed the word up as have most today.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Explain the connection of 'saved' with 'baptized' in the passages I cited. There is indeed in scripture a 'saving' in water baptism. You evangelicals have so gommed up the word 'saved' that you always use it in the eternal sense, i.e., saved = going to heaven, or, saved from hell...when it is not the intent from the context.

Mark 16. Either an added passage. Or baptism of the spirit. Jesus did not contradict himself and only claim it in one passage while leaving it out in so many other passages where he said just believe (see the gospel of John)

in act 2. If we look in the greek. He told everyone to repent. He only told a select few to be baptized.

For remission of sin can be translated because of received remission of sin. It does not always mean in order to receive. and since the gift of the spirit is given to those who repent. It is assumed baptism is completed those who received this gift. hence those who received remission. We see this also in the next verse. And those who BELIEVED (repented) were baptized.

In Peter we see Peter using the water of baptism, like the waters of the flood to symbolism that which happens to the believer at salvation. The water of the flood was Gods judgment, Yet that same water was used to save 8 people. The waters of baptism symbolise us being immersed into christ. where again we are saved,,

But he makes clear. it does not remove filth of the flesh (Our filth of sin) but is the answer of a good consciousness to God. it is in being obedient to him, Like in acts 2.

everyone should be baptised as it is a command, Yet so is going to church, Giving, Serving, Loving, Praying, Studying etc etc.. Non of those things help save us, they are our response to a God who saved us in his blood.

 

[Reformed1689]

Reformed Baptists and Presbyterians "get along so well" because of their covenantal nature and the doctrines of grace. There is still a vast gulf between our understanding of New Covenant membership and baptism.

Agree. It was once said, "I would trust my Presbyterian brothers with just about anything except a baby."

 

[JesusFan]

Mark 16. Either an added passage. Or baptism of the spirit. Jesus did not contradict himself and only claim it in one passage while leaving it out in so many other passages where he said just believe (see the gospel of John)

in act 2. If we look in the greek. He told everyone to repent. He only told a select few to be baptized.

For remission of sin can be translated because of received remission of sin. It does not always mean in order to receive. and since the gift of the spirit is given to those who repent. It is assumed baptism is completed those who received this gift. hence those who received remission. We see this also in the next verse. And those who BELIEVED (repented) were baptized.

In Peter we see Peter using the water of baptism, like the waters of the flood to symbolism that which happens to the believer at salvation. The water of the flood was Gods judgment, Yet that same water was used to save 8 people. The waters of baptism symbolise us being immersed into christ. where again we are saved,,

But he makes clear. it does not remove filth of the flesh (Our filth of sin) but is the answer of a good consciousness to God. it is in being obedient to him, Like in acts 2.

everyone should be baptised as it is a command, Yet so is going to church, Giving, Serving, Loving, Praying, Studying etc etc.. Non of those things help save us, they are our response to a God who saved us in his blood.

Yes, as we, per the Greek text, are baptized into Christ, as it is He who is the very source of our remission of sins!

 

[kyredneck]

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned. Mk 16

Mark 16. Either an added passage. Or baptism of the spirit.

So you would accept this paraphrase rendering?:

He that believeth and is baptized of the Spirit shall be saved from hell....
-----------------------------------------------------------------
40 And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation.
41 They then that received his word were baptized: and there were added unto them in that day about three thousand souls. Acts 2

in act 2. If we look in the greek. He told everyone to repent. He only told a select few to be baptized.

How do you make 'Save yourselves from this crooked generation' from the temporal to the eternal sense?

'Send yourselves to heaven from this crooked generation'...? Something like that?

Paraphrase that for me if you would.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
21 which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ; 1 Pet 3

The waters of baptism symbolise us being immersed into christ. where again we are saved,,

'Saved' from what? The eternal flame?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Sozo

King James Word Usage - Total: 110
save 93, make whole 9, heal 3, be whole 2, miscellaneous 3

 

[Reformed]

Agree. It was once said, "I would trust my Presbyterian brothers with just about anything except a baby."

LOL

 

[Eternally Grateful]

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned. Mk 16



So you would accept this paraphrase rendering?:

He that believeth and is baptized of the Spirit shall be saved from hell....
-----------------------------------------------------------------
40 And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation.
41 They then that received his word were baptized: and there were added unto them in that day about three thousand souls. Acts 2

I would believe what jesus said in John
John 3: As moses lifted the serpent so must the son of man be lifted up that whoever BELIEVES shall not perish, built have everlasting life. For God lo love the world that he gave his only begotten son that whoever BELIEVES shall not perish but has everlasting life.

Whoever believes is not condemned, but who ever does not believe is condemned already because they have not believed

John 4: If you would ask, I would have given you living water flowing to eternal life.

John 5: Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal lifeand will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6: And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
I am the bread of life. This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

How do you resolve the fact that we have so many words of Jesus who never mentioned baptism once as a means to be made alive and this life being eternal.

How do you resolve the fact Jesus said it is belief only that makes us not condemned. And again never mentions baptism once

How do you resolve the fact that Jesus said whoever hears and believes will never die and live forever. And will not be judged. No mention of baptism

How do you resolve the fact Jesus speaks of the food which gives eternal life. That whoever feeds on the food, that bread from heaven, that flesh and blood the “words that jesus speaks) will never hunger never die, Will live forever. Will never be lost. And will be raised on the last day?

And not once in these and so many other passages no mention of baptism.

And you want me to believe one obscure verse. Overrules or contradicts all these passages, and I should teach that I must be saved by a work if I want to be truly saved?

How do you make 'Save yourselves from this crooked generation' from the temporal to the eternal sense?

'Send yourselves to heaven from this crooked generation'...? Something like that?

Paraphrase that for me if you would.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
21 which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ; 1 Pet 3



'Saved' from what? The eternal flame?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Sozo

King James Word Usage - Total: 110
save 93, make whole 9, heal 3, be whole 2, miscellaneous 3

See above.

Jesus never mentioned baptism in all those passages.

Why would you want to relate the baptism of the spirit with a baptism performed by the hands of men? Its no different than the jews saying we must be circumcised. Amazing that both traditions represent cleansing, represent cutting off or washing away sin, Represent the purification of God.

Yet Paul in Colossians makes it clear. It is not the ceremony performed by the hands of man but the one performed by the hand of God (the spiritual circumcision which is accomplished through the spiritual baptism performed by the very God who raised him from the dead.

 

[kyredneck]

we have so many words of Jesus who never mentioned baptism

In all those many words of your last post Jesus never once used the word sozo. You've butted into this dialog and yet totally missed the gist of posts #45, 48, 50, & 54.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

In all those many words of your last post Jesus never once used the word sozo. You've butted into this dialog and yet totally missed the gist of posts #45, 48, 50, & 54.

In all the words of my last post.

He never used the word BAPTIZO.

while he did use the term saved, Eternal life Never die, Live forever, Risen on the last day. Will never be lost.

Is that not our hope. In the hope of eternal life which God, who can not lie, promised before time began?
What good is our christian walk if we have no hope? What god is our walk and our faith if it is not set in the perfect love, the perfectly trustworthy ness of the one who offers us this gift of salvation?

None of the post you are trying to get me to look at refutes the fact that eternal life, that lack of condemnation. That being born again is based on our faith in the work of God.

If you want to misinterpret or mistranslate those verses to try to declare you must save yourself by allowing some flesh human, who needs saved himself. To immerse you in water. I can;t help you. All I can do is point you to the many passages where Jesus himself said who it is that will not die. And hoe he never mentioned the word baptism in all of those passages.

Oh and by the way, Your wrong.

John 3: 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. (SOZO)

 

[kyredneck]

In all the words of my last post.

He never used the word BAPTIZO.

Lol, like I said, you've totally missed it. Ramble on.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Lol, like I said, you've totally missed it. Ramble on.

Whatever.

I did not miss anything.

But hey, if you want to earn salvation by baptism in water. Feel free.