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Charismatic Theology
- Thread starter myreflection26
- Start date
DHK,
The Apostle Paul understood WHAT?
There is MUCH debate about 1 Cor. 13, and what "perfect" means. See above post.
I think you have entered into the mode of:
I said it, so it is so.
I still await an answer to:
WHO IS THE APOSTLE OF CESSATIONISM?
It isn't Paul.
I guess by your avoidance of the question, you don't know. You don't seem to know the history of cessationism. I do. I have "been there, done that".
The Apostle Paul understood WHAT?
There is MUCH debate about 1 Cor. 13, and what "perfect" means. See above post.
I think you have entered into the mode of:
I said it, so it is so.
I still await an answer to:
WHO IS THE APOSTLE OF CESSATIONISM?
It isn't Paul.
I guess by your avoidance of the question, you don't know. You don't seem to know the history of cessationism. I do. I have "been there, done that".
Kathryn S.
New Member
Katie:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I'd like to know where the Bible say to pray and ask for the gift of tongues,gift of knowledge,gift of healing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The Bible doesn't say to ask for the gift of tongues. I don't think anyone here is saying it does. Scripture does say. Ask and you shall recieve, if that is what God determines is good for you.
"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him! Matthew 7:11
"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?" Luke 11:13
God however is the one who knows what is best for us.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> And I don't think that Jesus is a 'that', but a HE. So I don't see how anyone can say that when the Bible say 'that' it means Jesus. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>"But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." (1 Corinthians 13:10)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
“that which is perfect” is our own spiritual maturity brought to perfection. Each individual will be made complete at Christ's coming; i.e., then we will be glorified. This is what Paul is talking about throughout the whole passage. Christian maturity coming to fulfillment. The word "that" is not refering to the bible or Christ Himself, but our maturity in Christ Jesus. Then we will see clearly face to face.
God Bless
[ September 27, 2001: Message edited by: Disciple 2001 ]
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I'd like to know where the Bible say to pray and ask for the gift of tongues,gift of knowledge,gift of healing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The Bible doesn't say to ask for the gift of tongues. I don't think anyone here is saying it does. Scripture does say. Ask and you shall recieve, if that is what God determines is good for you.
"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him! Matthew 7:11
"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?" Luke 11:13
God however is the one who knows what is best for us.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> And I don't think that Jesus is a 'that', but a HE. So I don't see how anyone can say that when the Bible say 'that' it means Jesus. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>"But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." (1 Corinthians 13:10)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
“that which is perfect” is our own spiritual maturity brought to perfection. Each individual will be made complete at Christ's coming; i.e., then we will be glorified. This is what Paul is talking about throughout the whole passage. Christian maturity coming to fulfillment. The word "that" is not refering to the bible or Christ Himself, but our maturity in Christ Jesus. Then we will see clearly face to face.
God Bless
[ September 27, 2001: Message edited by: Disciple 2001 ]
Qwerty,
Do some simple objective testing of your own to find out whether these gifts have ceased or not? One of the sign gifts is the gift of healing. There are those today who say they have this gift. They call themselves “faith-healers.” I call them frauds. First, read James 5:
14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
Notice that it was not a faith-healer, but a pastor, an elder that was called.
Notice that it was the pastor’s faith—the prayer of faith shall save the sick. It had nothing to do with the faith of the one that was sick. Thus if the faith-healer says, “You didn’t have enough faith to be healed,” that’s a cop-out. It was the faith-healer’s faith that failed, not the one who was sick.
Now challenge a faith-healer, any faith-healer, to come out of his own environment, and come to a hospital and visit those that are truly sick. Lay hands on those who are waiting for operations. Visit the emergency room. Lay hands on those who have just come in from car accidents and lay hands on those, and see if they will recover. Why do so many of them where glasses anyway? Is there faith that weak that they cannot heal themselves? If the gift of healing were really for today, these individuals would have the power to heal outside their own little fraudulent environment, but they don’t.
Who has the gift of miracles today, and can perform miracles on the same scale that Jesus and the Apostles did? Please give verifiable evidence from outside sources, preferably doctors of another religion.
Read the post where I challenged Sue to meet the Biblical conditions for speaking in tongues. Does she meet all the conditions set forth in 1 Corinthians 14 for speaking in tongues. Do you know anybody that does? Please give verifiable evidence.
What about the gift of prophecy? The Bible says that if you but miss one prophecy you are a false prophet and should be stoned. You may prophesy 1,000 times, like many Charismatics do, but if just one of them fails, they are charlatans, false prophets, deceivers. Under Old Testament law they would be stoned to death. Do you know of any prophets who can prophesy 100% accurately 100% of the time? Please give verifiable evidence.
If you cannot give evidence of these things, I would rightly conclude that these sign gifts, along with the others mentioned, have ceased. Josh McDowell entitles his book, “Evidence that Demands a Verdict.” Where is the evidence?
DHK
Do some simple objective testing of your own to find out whether these gifts have ceased or not? One of the sign gifts is the gift of healing. There are those today who say they have this gift. They call themselves “faith-healers.” I call them frauds. First, read James 5:
14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
Notice that it was not a faith-healer, but a pastor, an elder that was called.
Notice that it was the pastor’s faith—the prayer of faith shall save the sick. It had nothing to do with the faith of the one that was sick. Thus if the faith-healer says, “You didn’t have enough faith to be healed,” that’s a cop-out. It was the faith-healer’s faith that failed, not the one who was sick.
Now challenge a faith-healer, any faith-healer, to come out of his own environment, and come to a hospital and visit those that are truly sick. Lay hands on those who are waiting for operations. Visit the emergency room. Lay hands on those who have just come in from car accidents and lay hands on those, and see if they will recover. Why do so many of them where glasses anyway? Is there faith that weak that they cannot heal themselves? If the gift of healing were really for today, these individuals would have the power to heal outside their own little fraudulent environment, but they don’t.
Who has the gift of miracles today, and can perform miracles on the same scale that Jesus and the Apostles did? Please give verifiable evidence from outside sources, preferably doctors of another religion.
Read the post where I challenged Sue to meet the Biblical conditions for speaking in tongues. Does she meet all the conditions set forth in 1 Corinthians 14 for speaking in tongues. Do you know anybody that does? Please give verifiable evidence.
What about the gift of prophecy? The Bible says that if you but miss one prophecy you are a false prophet and should be stoned. You may prophesy 1,000 times, like many Charismatics do, but if just one of them fails, they are charlatans, false prophets, deceivers. Under Old Testament law they would be stoned to death. Do you know of any prophets who can prophesy 100% accurately 100% of the time? Please give verifiable evidence.
If you cannot give evidence of these things, I would rightly conclude that these sign gifts, along with the others mentioned, have ceased. Josh McDowell entitles his book, “Evidence that Demands a Verdict.” Where is the evidence?
DHK
myreflection26
New Member
DHK,
I beg to differ with you on the healing issue. You said about in the passage it was the pastor's faith that healed and not the one of the sick.
How about the woman in the bible who bled for I think it was something like 12 years or so and she heard Jesus was coming thru town and she knew and believed that if she only touched the edge of Jesus's garmet that she would be healed instantly and thats exactly what she did. Jesus turned around and told her it was literally her faith that healed her.
Also, how about that Master who approached Jesus about his servant who was sick and Jesus was going to visit the guys house to heal the servant but the guy told Jesus, You don't have to come to my house because I am not worthy of your presence there but if you just say the word then my servant will be healed,,,Jesus looked at the man and told him "I tell you I have not found such great faith even in Israel" and the servant was healed due to the faith of the master.
FYI, I know a man who has the gift of healing, and #1 he wears no glasses hehe and he also does go into the hospital and such places to pray over people and he's seen people healed. He happens to be our chiropractor and he also prays over us while he is cracking our back as he does with everyone who visits. He is definately not stingy (just a way to put it) with the gift God has given to him, when he sees one who is in need of healing he is fast to lay hands on them and pray in faith that God will heal.
I know the next scripture I'm about to give is talking about asking for wisdom in text but actually the verse I'm about to quote is more than dealing with wisdom.
James 1:6-8
But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind.
That man should not think he will recieve anything from the Lord he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does.
The point is, its not about demanding things of God such as healing or anything for that matter, but belief that God will do as you have asked because you simply asked in faith.
Sue
I beg to differ with you on the healing issue. You said about in the passage it was the pastor's faith that healed and not the one of the sick.
How about the woman in the bible who bled for I think it was something like 12 years or so and she heard Jesus was coming thru town and she knew and believed that if she only touched the edge of Jesus's garmet that she would be healed instantly and thats exactly what she did. Jesus turned around and told her it was literally her faith that healed her.
Also, how about that Master who approached Jesus about his servant who was sick and Jesus was going to visit the guys house to heal the servant but the guy told Jesus, You don't have to come to my house because I am not worthy of your presence there but if you just say the word then my servant will be healed,,,Jesus looked at the man and told him "I tell you I have not found such great faith even in Israel" and the servant was healed due to the faith of the master.
FYI, I know a man who has the gift of healing, and #1 he wears no glasses hehe and he also does go into the hospital and such places to pray over people and he's seen people healed. He happens to be our chiropractor and he also prays over us while he is cracking our back as he does with everyone who visits. He is definately not stingy (just a way to put it) with the gift God has given to him, when he sees one who is in need of healing he is fast to lay hands on them and pray in faith that God will heal.
I know the next scripture I'm about to give is talking about asking for wisdom in text but actually the verse I'm about to quote is more than dealing with wisdom.
James 1:6-8
But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind.
That man should not think he will recieve anything from the Lord he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does.
The point is, its not about demanding things of God such as healing or anything for that matter, but belief that God will do as you have asked because you simply asked in faith.
Sue
Sue,
That won't do. You need to present verifiable evidence, not anecdotal stories. Will he go into the hospitals and halt all the surgeries and heal the patients? Will he heal the broken bones, the ones that project right through the arm or leg? He's a chiropractor that prays over people. Big deal. That doesn't mean he has the Biblical gift of healing. Look at Acts 3. The lame man was crippled for 38 years, when Peter and John came. He was healed: and was jumping and leaping and praising God. Everyone knew about it. It's not simply: "I've got a sore back, so I think I'll see my chiropractor. Aah that feels better now. I'm healed." Sorry, that's not the gift of healing.
As for the ones that Jesus healed, you aren't Jesus. Many of the ones that Jesus healed, he healed in order that they would believe on Him. Some he healed that the glory of God would be manifest. Some he healed simply out of His own mercy and grace. But you aren't Jesus.
Jesus left us the local church. He gave the church instructions how to operate. The directives in healing are given in James 5. They are very specific, and they are given to the local church which God has chosen to work through in this day and age.
Furthermore, God does not heal everyone as many faith-healers claim. Paul prayed for healing three times, when he had a thorn in the flesh. His answer from God was, "My grace is sufficient for thee." Paul therefore responded, "Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong." (2 Cor.12:9,10). Paul was unable to heal himself. Did he not have enough faith? Paul refers to Timothy's "oft infirmities," which he obviously couldn't heal, otherwise he would not have told him to take wine (unfermented) for them. Paul left Trophimus sick at Miletus. He was unable to heal him also. Epaphroditus, a fellow-soldier in the Lord, was sick, even close to death. Why didn't Paul heal all these people?? If ever there was a strong presence of spiritual gifts, it was during the first century, during the life of the Apostles. Yet even during this time, these individuals were not healed.
Remember, evidence please!
DHK
That won't do. You need to present verifiable evidence, not anecdotal stories. Will he go into the hospitals and halt all the surgeries and heal the patients? Will he heal the broken bones, the ones that project right through the arm or leg? He's a chiropractor that prays over people. Big deal. That doesn't mean he has the Biblical gift of healing. Look at Acts 3. The lame man was crippled for 38 years, when Peter and John came. He was healed: and was jumping and leaping and praising God. Everyone knew about it. It's not simply: "I've got a sore back, so I think I'll see my chiropractor. Aah that feels better now. I'm healed." Sorry, that's not the gift of healing.
As for the ones that Jesus healed, you aren't Jesus. Many of the ones that Jesus healed, he healed in order that they would believe on Him. Some he healed that the glory of God would be manifest. Some he healed simply out of His own mercy and grace. But you aren't Jesus.
Jesus left us the local church. He gave the church instructions how to operate. The directives in healing are given in James 5. They are very specific, and they are given to the local church which God has chosen to work through in this day and age.
Furthermore, God does not heal everyone as many faith-healers claim. Paul prayed for healing three times, when he had a thorn in the flesh. His answer from God was, "My grace is sufficient for thee." Paul therefore responded, "Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong." (2 Cor.12:9,10). Paul was unable to heal himself. Did he not have enough faith? Paul refers to Timothy's "oft infirmities," which he obviously couldn't heal, otherwise he would not have told him to take wine (unfermented) for them. Paul left Trophimus sick at Miletus. He was unable to heal him also. Epaphroditus, a fellow-soldier in the Lord, was sick, even close to death. Why didn't Paul heal all these people?? If ever there was a strong presence of spiritual gifts, it was during the first century, during the life of the Apostles. Yet even during this time, these individuals were not healed.
Remember, evidence please!
DHK
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by qwerty:
WHO IS THE APOSTLE OF CESSATIONISM?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What is Cessationism????? This is the problem I have with these discussions. You begin using terms that I am not familiar with, then post stuff like "Stanley Toussaint argues that based upon 1) the change from katargevw to pauvw in 13:8; 2) the omission of tongues in 13:9, 12; and 3) the change in voice to the middle in pauvw—all point to tongues ceasing before Christ comes.44" and lose me. I am not a scholar, I have said that before. Can you please define your position in terms (and language) that I am familiar with and hopefully scripture to say why you think that Paul did not mean what he said in 1 Corinthians 13.
If you do as DHK did and take the 13th chapter of 1 Corinthians in context with how the gifts were used throughout the entire New Testament, you can figure out easily that the gifts today are in no way being used according to scripture. If that is the case, then why is that?
You say we have no scripture to back up our case, (though DHK and Chet both used scripture) yet you give me paragraphs of commentary interpreting one or two verses of the Bible, in sentences I can not pronounce. Ok, Maybe I am not the most intelligent person in the world, but I am not un-educated. I guarantee you God did not hide His Truth for only those versed in Theology to understand.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>WHO IS THE APOSTLE OF CESSATIONISM?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't know, is that term biblical? Define it for me and I may try to answer.
~Lorelei
[ September 27, 2001: Message edited by: Lorelei ]
[ September 27, 2001: Message edited by: Lorelei ]
WHO IS THE APOSTLE OF CESSATIONISM?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What is Cessationism????? This is the problem I have with these discussions. You begin using terms that I am not familiar with, then post stuff like "Stanley Toussaint argues that based upon 1) the change from katargevw to pauvw in 13:8; 2) the omission of tongues in 13:9, 12; and 3) the change in voice to the middle in pauvw—all point to tongues ceasing before Christ comes.44" and lose me. I am not a scholar, I have said that before. Can you please define your position in terms (and language) that I am familiar with and hopefully scripture to say why you think that Paul did not mean what he said in 1 Corinthians 13.
If you do as DHK did and take the 13th chapter of 1 Corinthians in context with how the gifts were used throughout the entire New Testament, you can figure out easily that the gifts today are in no way being used according to scripture. If that is the case, then why is that?
You say we have no scripture to back up our case, (though DHK and Chet both used scripture) yet you give me paragraphs of commentary interpreting one or two verses of the Bible, in sentences I can not pronounce. Ok, Maybe I am not the most intelligent person in the world, but I am not un-educated. I guarantee you God did not hide His Truth for only those versed in Theology to understand.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>WHO IS THE APOSTLE OF CESSATIONISM?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't know, is that term biblical? Define it for me and I may try to answer.
~Lorelei
[ September 27, 2001: Message edited by: Lorelei ]
[ September 27, 2001: Message edited by: Lorelei ]
myreflection26
New Member
DHK,
To start out and make something very clear here, I was not defining my friend's gift of healing by the fact that he prays over his patients, that was simply little ditti of info I threw in there. Basically had nothing to do with the subject at hand. However, I do know of the cases where he has seen instant healing of those he's prayed over, they've not been documented as I assume that is what you are asking for.
The cases I mentioned of Jesus healing folks said absolutely nothing in those passages about Jesus healing them to make them believe on him, it said in Jesus's words they were healed by their faith. You are right, I'm not Jesus but Jesus told us to do the same thing and aren't we to be like Jesus? I do believe God heals in respect to faith, I believe that strongly.
Oh yeah, many people take Paul's situation and try to make that into a physical situation, when it wasn't an illness at all but scripture said what Paul had was a messanger from Satan, that my friend is a demon not an illness. In fact, it notes that Paul's affliction of his eyes was healed.
I'm not saying tell God to do anything, but I do think we need to pray in faith and believe God wants to heal and will heal. If we can't walk in faith then what is faith for?
Sue
To start out and make something very clear here, I was not defining my friend's gift of healing by the fact that he prays over his patients, that was simply little ditti of info I threw in there. Basically had nothing to do with the subject at hand. However, I do know of the cases where he has seen instant healing of those he's prayed over, they've not been documented as I assume that is what you are asking for.
The cases I mentioned of Jesus healing folks said absolutely nothing in those passages about Jesus healing them to make them believe on him, it said in Jesus's words they were healed by their faith. You are right, I'm not Jesus but Jesus told us to do the same thing and aren't we to be like Jesus? I do believe God heals in respect to faith, I believe that strongly.
Oh yeah, many people take Paul's situation and try to make that into a physical situation, when it wasn't an illness at all but scripture said what Paul had was a messanger from Satan, that my friend is a demon not an illness. In fact, it notes that Paul's affliction of his eyes was healed.
I'm not saying tell God to do anything, but I do think we need to pray in faith and believe God wants to heal and will heal. If we can't walk in faith then what is faith for?
Sue
Quote:
"Oh yeah, many people take Paul's situation and try to make that into a physical situation, when it wasn't an illness at all but scripture said what Paul had was a messanger from Satan, that my friend is a demon not an illness. In fact, it notes that Paul's affliction of his eyes was healed."
This was a demon and not an illness, and yet his eyes were healed? You need a BIK button (Boy am I Konfused). Look again at the context. "And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me." (2Cor.12:9). He didn't glory in his demons, but rather in his infirmities, his sicknesses.
As for the fact that the "affliction of his eyes was healed," please give chapter and verse. The Bible teaches no such thing.
Gal.6:11 Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand.
--Paul wrote the epistle to the Galatians with his own hand, that is without the aid of a scribe. He remarks to them "how large a letter," meaning how large letters he used. The phrase indicates that he had to use a large script because of the poor condition of his eyesight.
Gal.4:15 Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.
--Here Paul refers quite clearly that the Galatians would have sacrificed their own eyes for Paul, to allow him to see better, if it were possible. If it were possible in that day and age to do an eye transplant there were plenty of Galatians that were willing.
Yes, if God wants to heal, He will heal. He will heal primarily in answer to prayer. He does not heal through "faith-healers," or those claiming to have the Biblical gift of healing, because that gift does not exist. Those who claim they have are either deceived or frauds. Again, I challenge you to take your friend to the hospital and ask him to mend the broken bones, and heal the sick that are there.
DHK
"Oh yeah, many people take Paul's situation and try to make that into a physical situation, when it wasn't an illness at all but scripture said what Paul had was a messanger from Satan, that my friend is a demon not an illness. In fact, it notes that Paul's affliction of his eyes was healed."
This was a demon and not an illness, and yet his eyes were healed? You need a BIK button (Boy am I Konfused). Look again at the context. "And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me." (2Cor.12:9). He didn't glory in his demons, but rather in his infirmities, his sicknesses.
As for the fact that the "affliction of his eyes was healed," please give chapter and verse. The Bible teaches no such thing.
Gal.6:11 Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand.
--Paul wrote the epistle to the Galatians with his own hand, that is without the aid of a scribe. He remarks to them "how large a letter," meaning how large letters he used. The phrase indicates that he had to use a large script because of the poor condition of his eyesight.
Gal.4:15 Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.
--Here Paul refers quite clearly that the Galatians would have sacrificed their own eyes for Paul, to allow him to see better, if it were possible. If it were possible in that day and age to do an eye transplant there were plenty of Galatians that were willing.
Yes, if God wants to heal, He will heal. He will heal primarily in answer to prayer. He does not heal through "faith-healers," or those claiming to have the Biblical gift of healing, because that gift does not exist. Those who claim they have are either deceived or frauds. Again, I challenge you to take your friend to the hospital and ask him to mend the broken bones, and heal the sick that are there.
DHK
Sue,
Do you have a response to the questions you have been asked in this thread? I will repeat them.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lorelei:
And you use this gift of languages according to 1 Corinthians 14? If you are a female, then how can you use this gift to edify the church (1 Corinthians 14:5 "I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying" ) if you are to be silent in the church (1 Corinthians 14:34 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law." )?
1 Corinthians 14:22 "Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not" How is your gift fulfilling this purpose?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DHK:
If you are not adhering to all these stipulations that Paul puts on speaking in tongues, then you don't have the gift. Quite frankly you have been deceived. What language are you speaking in, when you speak in tongues (yes a real known language)? If your a woman (and by your name, Sue, I assume you are), then the gift is not, was not, for you. Even if you satisfied the above, if there is no unbelieving Jew present, then it is unbiblical, for it is a sign to the unbelieving Jew. Whatever you have, it is not the Biblical gift of speaking in tongues.
DHK<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DHK:
"so that the church may be edified"
Those are some of the conditions that must be met if the church may be edified. Prophesying therefore is a greater gift. Sue, do you meet these conditions?
DHK<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Don:
If tongues are a sign for unbelievers, as evidenced in their first recorded use back in Acts 2, why does a church full of believers need them? Are there those in the church that are unsaved? In which case, isn't the use of a tongue directed at those individuals, and not at people such as yourself who profess to be saved?
I believe I read where you stated that you have the gift of tongues, or have used the gift of tongues; to whom did you use it? Believers or unbelievers? If it was to those who you think are believers, then you are in violation of how Paul says the gift is to be used.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You even say yourself that the gift must be used properly.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by myreflection26:
I would like that every one of you speak in tounges, but I would rather you have prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than than one who speaks in tounges, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.
From this, I see that it truely does edify the church when used properly.
Sue<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Please explain scripturally how you are meeting those requirements.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by myreflection26:
Btw,,,where the laying on of hands is concerned, I wasn't trying to be unconcerned with it, I gave scripture to back it up and you pointed out that it didn't say actual laying on of hands to recive healing and I said that my bible says that so it must be a version difference<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What version of the Bible are you using? They apparantly are different if you are finding things such as this in yours.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by myreflection26:
Oh yeah, many people take Paul's situation and try to make that into a physical situation, when it wasn't an illness at all but scripture said what Paul had was a messanger from Satan, that my friend is a demon not an illness. In fact, it notes that Paul's affliction of his eyes was healed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Where do you find evidence of this?
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>2 Corinthians 2:12 "To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me.
8
Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me.
9
But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.
10
That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong." NIV<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It shows here that Christ did not heal him, but gave Paul the power to be strong through the weakness. Where do you find that his "affliction of His eyes was healed?"
If the thorn is not an affliction of some sort, but a demon, are you saying that Paul was possesed by one? Please clarify
I do not believe that it is asking too much of someone to give a Book, chapter and verse to prove thier point if they are stating something as a fact.
~Lorelei
[ September 28, 2001: Message edited by: Lorelei ]
Do you have a response to the questions you have been asked in this thread? I will repeat them.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lorelei:
And you use this gift of languages according to 1 Corinthians 14? If you are a female, then how can you use this gift to edify the church (1 Corinthians 14:5 "I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying" ) if you are to be silent in the church (1 Corinthians 14:34 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law." )?
1 Corinthians 14:22 "Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not" How is your gift fulfilling this purpose?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DHK:
If you are not adhering to all these stipulations that Paul puts on speaking in tongues, then you don't have the gift. Quite frankly you have been deceived. What language are you speaking in, when you speak in tongues (yes a real known language)? If your a woman (and by your name, Sue, I assume you are), then the gift is not, was not, for you. Even if you satisfied the above, if there is no unbelieving Jew present, then it is unbiblical, for it is a sign to the unbelieving Jew. Whatever you have, it is not the Biblical gift of speaking in tongues.
DHK<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DHK:
"so that the church may be edified"
Those are some of the conditions that must be met if the church may be edified. Prophesying therefore is a greater gift. Sue, do you meet these conditions?
DHK<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Don:
If tongues are a sign for unbelievers, as evidenced in their first recorded use back in Acts 2, why does a church full of believers need them? Are there those in the church that are unsaved? In which case, isn't the use of a tongue directed at those individuals, and not at people such as yourself who profess to be saved?
I believe I read where you stated that you have the gift of tongues, or have used the gift of tongues; to whom did you use it? Believers or unbelievers? If it was to those who you think are believers, then you are in violation of how Paul says the gift is to be used.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You even say yourself that the gift must be used properly.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by myreflection26:
I would like that every one of you speak in tounges, but I would rather you have prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than than one who speaks in tounges, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.
From this, I see that it truely does edify the church when used properly.
Sue<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Please explain scripturally how you are meeting those requirements.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by myreflection26:
Btw,,,where the laying on of hands is concerned, I wasn't trying to be unconcerned with it, I gave scripture to back it up and you pointed out that it didn't say actual laying on of hands to recive healing and I said that my bible says that so it must be a version difference<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What version of the Bible are you using? They apparantly are different if you are finding things such as this in yours.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by myreflection26:
Oh yeah, many people take Paul's situation and try to make that into a physical situation, when it wasn't an illness at all but scripture said what Paul had was a messanger from Satan, that my friend is a demon not an illness. In fact, it notes that Paul's affliction of his eyes was healed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Where do you find evidence of this?
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>2 Corinthians 2:12 "To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me.
8
Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me.
9
But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.
10
That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong." NIV<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It shows here that Christ did not heal him, but gave Paul the power to be strong through the weakness. Where do you find that his "affliction of His eyes was healed?"
If the thorn is not an affliction of some sort, but a demon, are you saying that Paul was possesed by one? Please clarify
I do not believe that it is asking too much of someone to give a Book, chapter and verse to prove thier point if they are stating something as a fact.
~Lorelei
[ September 28, 2001: Message edited by: Lorelei ]
DKH, and anyone else,
You will not be able to hear my reasons for why the Holy Spirit does the same today as He did in the first century.
Look at your own arguments.
They are ALL interpretationally based. That is, you make a statement, which has no source, and is not proved, and then declare it is true.
You say that you are just saying what the scripture says, but what you are saying is just what you believe about the scripture.
You want proof that the gifts are for today. Then go where they are being used correctly. The only sources you allow for the gifts are those who you discredit. Yes, there are those who try to use the gifts, and they don't get it right. That is not to say that there are not those who are doing the gifts correctly.
Take the gift of evangelist. Why do you not criticize an evangelist if not every person who he or she preaches to gets saved? Why not criticize a pastor if not everyone in the congregation walks in perfection?
You want perfection in others, but not in those who agree with you. You demand perfection in some things, like the gifts of the Holy Spirit, but in other things, you allow for far less than perfection.
My recommendation: Take your arguments to some friends, even those who agree with you, and ask them if you are declaring things true that have not really been proven true.
I will continue to ask:
WHO STARTED THE DOCTRINE OF CESSATIONISM, WHO DEVELOPED IT, AND DO THEY GIVE CREDIT TO GOD FOR THIS DOCTRINE?
You will not be able to hear my reasons for why the Holy Spirit does the same today as He did in the first century.
Look at your own arguments.
They are ALL interpretationally based. That is, you make a statement, which has no source, and is not proved, and then declare it is true.
You say that you are just saying what the scripture says, but what you are saying is just what you believe about the scripture.
You want proof that the gifts are for today. Then go where they are being used correctly. The only sources you allow for the gifts are those who you discredit. Yes, there are those who try to use the gifts, and they don't get it right. That is not to say that there are not those who are doing the gifts correctly.
Take the gift of evangelist. Why do you not criticize an evangelist if not every person who he or she preaches to gets saved? Why not criticize a pastor if not everyone in the congregation walks in perfection?
You want perfection in others, but not in those who agree with you. You demand perfection in some things, like the gifts of the Holy Spirit, but in other things, you allow for far less than perfection.
My recommendation: Take your arguments to some friends, even those who agree with you, and ask them if you are declaring things true that have not really been proven true.
I will continue to ask:
WHO STARTED THE DOCTRINE OF CESSATIONISM, WHO DEVELOPED IT, AND DO THEY GIVE CREDIT TO GOD FOR THIS DOCTRINE?
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by qwerty:
They are ALL interpretationally based. That is, you make a statement, which has no source, and is not proved, and then declare it is true.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
1 Corinthians does say that those things will cease and fail. Do you agree that someday that will happen?
The teachings on the gifts in scripture reveals that there are some gifts that were for specific purposes. We are also told what the signs of an apostle are. 1 Corinthians 12:12 "Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds". Do you believe there are apostles today?
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by qwerty:
You want proof that the gifts are for today. Then go where they are being used correctly. The only sources you allow for the gifts are those who you discredit. Yes, there are those who try to use the gifts, and they don't get it right. That is not to say that there are not those who are doing the gifts correctly.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Could you please point me toward a source that is indeed true?
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by qwerty:
Take the gift of evangelist. Why do you not criticize an evangelist if not every person who he or she preaches to gets saved? Why not criticize a pastor if not everyone in the congregation walks in perfection?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Because they are responsible for thier own actions and not for the actions of others. They can not force anyone to listen to them. A person that uses any gift outside the realm of scripture will be and needs to be held accountable for that.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by qwerty:
You want perfection in others, but not in those who agree with you. You demand perfection in some things, like the gifts of the Holy Spirit, but in other things, you allow for far less than perfection.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is not true. We all sin and none of us will be perfect. That does not mean that we are to continue in sin, no we are to strive to uphold the law. The difference is the admission of that sin. If a sin or error in interpretation is brought to my attention, then I would be hopeful that I would submit to that and begin to follow the Truth. However, when those who are "gifted" with the Spirit insist that their gift is of God, then it is my duty to show them how they are in error of using that gift properly. The problem is, they refuse to admit that they are in error and ignore the Word of God. We are instructed to try to keep our brother from erring from the Truth (James 5:19-20, 2 Timothy 4:2)
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by qwerty:
My recommendation: Take your arguments to some friends, even those who agree with you, and ask them if you are declaring things true that have not really been proven true.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I have already said that I am open to changing my mind if I can find scriptural support for differing opinions.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by qwerty:
I will continue to ask:
WHO STARTED THE DOCTRINE OF CESSATIONISM, WHO DEVELOPED IT, AND DO THEY GIVE CREDIT TO GOD FOR THIS DOCTRINE?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
And I repeat, what is this doctrine? Show me the Word Cessationism in the Bible and please define it for me. I can not answer your question if I have no idea what you are talking about. I have not read books, or listened to others to come to believe what I believe. I believe what the scripture tells me.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by qwerty:
You will not be able to hear my reasons for why the Holy Spirit does the same today as He did in the first century<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I want reasons based on the Word of God. If you can show me in His Word and give proof of that evidence being administered according to scripture today, then I will indeed hear you, but I will not listen to solely your opinion, as I would not suggest you take my word as truth, but God's.
~Lorelei
They are ALL interpretationally based. That is, you make a statement, which has no source, and is not proved, and then declare it is true.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
1 Corinthians does say that those things will cease and fail. Do you agree that someday that will happen?
The teachings on the gifts in scripture reveals that there are some gifts that were for specific purposes. We are also told what the signs of an apostle are. 1 Corinthians 12:12 "Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds". Do you believe there are apostles today?
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by qwerty:
You want proof that the gifts are for today. Then go where they are being used correctly. The only sources you allow for the gifts are those who you discredit. Yes, there are those who try to use the gifts, and they don't get it right. That is not to say that there are not those who are doing the gifts correctly.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Could you please point me toward a source that is indeed true?
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by qwerty:
Take the gift of evangelist. Why do you not criticize an evangelist if not every person who he or she preaches to gets saved? Why not criticize a pastor if not everyone in the congregation walks in perfection?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Because they are responsible for thier own actions and not for the actions of others. They can not force anyone to listen to them. A person that uses any gift outside the realm of scripture will be and needs to be held accountable for that.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by qwerty:
You want perfection in others, but not in those who agree with you. You demand perfection in some things, like the gifts of the Holy Spirit, but in other things, you allow for far less than perfection.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is not true. We all sin and none of us will be perfect. That does not mean that we are to continue in sin, no we are to strive to uphold the law. The difference is the admission of that sin. If a sin or error in interpretation is brought to my attention, then I would be hopeful that I would submit to that and begin to follow the Truth. However, when those who are "gifted" with the Spirit insist that their gift is of God, then it is my duty to show them how they are in error of using that gift properly. The problem is, they refuse to admit that they are in error and ignore the Word of God. We are instructed to try to keep our brother from erring from the Truth (James 5:19-20, 2 Timothy 4:2)
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by qwerty:
My recommendation: Take your arguments to some friends, even those who agree with you, and ask them if you are declaring things true that have not really been proven true.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I have already said that I am open to changing my mind if I can find scriptural support for differing opinions.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by qwerty:
I will continue to ask:
WHO STARTED THE DOCTRINE OF CESSATIONISM, WHO DEVELOPED IT, AND DO THEY GIVE CREDIT TO GOD FOR THIS DOCTRINE?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
And I repeat, what is this doctrine? Show me the Word Cessationism in the Bible and please define it for me. I can not answer your question if I have no idea what you are talking about. I have not read books, or listened to others to come to believe what I believe. I believe what the scripture tells me.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by qwerty:
You will not be able to hear my reasons for why the Holy Spirit does the same today as He did in the first century<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I want reasons based on the Word of God. If you can show me in His Word and give proof of that evidence being administered according to scripture today, then I will indeed hear you, but I will not listen to solely your opinion, as I would not suggest you take my word as truth, but God's.
~Lorelei
myreflection26
New Member
DHK and Lor,
First of all, one question at a time here.
Yes and here it is, Acts 9: 15-19. You can read the whole passage if you like, but it speaks of Paul being healed and it actually kind of answers another question of where in the bible does it have anyone laying hands on someone to recieve the holy spirit or for healing...right here verse 17 and 18.
DHK, 2 Cor. 12:7 in my bible states this..To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messanger of Satan to torment me.
Obviously from above scripture we see that Paul was indeed healed of his eye problem and not only healed of his eye problem but he also was filled with the holy spirit then too. I am not saying Paul was possessed by a demon, the scripture tells us we don't wrestle with flesh and blood but against principalities and rulers of darkness which is very obviously Satan and his demons so that would tell me that Paul didn't have to be possessed to have a demon to be bugging him.
Lor, regarding the other answers, I put them on hold for the moment to look those scriptures up since they were really bugging me. As to the other answers, I'm working on that as well. I have to admit though, it kind of bugs me that you make it sound as though I'm not offering any scripture at all in any posts when that is not true at all. I'm not angry, I just feel a bit like I'm being condemned here.
Sue
Sue
First of all, one question at a time here.
Yes and here it is, Acts 9: 15-19. You can read the whole passage if you like, but it speaks of Paul being healed and it actually kind of answers another question of where in the bible does it have anyone laying hands on someone to recieve the holy spirit or for healing...right here verse 17 and 18.
DHK, 2 Cor. 12:7 in my bible states this..To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messanger of Satan to torment me.
Obviously from above scripture we see that Paul was indeed healed of his eye problem and not only healed of his eye problem but he also was filled with the holy spirit then too. I am not saying Paul was possessed by a demon, the scripture tells us we don't wrestle with flesh and blood but against principalities and rulers of darkness which is very obviously Satan and his demons so that would tell me that Paul didn't have to be possessed to have a demon to be bugging him.
Lor, regarding the other answers, I put them on hold for the moment to look those scriptures up since they were really bugging me. As to the other answers, I'm working on that as well. I have to admit though, it kind of bugs me that you make it sound as though I'm not offering any scripture at all in any posts when that is not true at all. I'm not angry, I just feel a bit like I'm being condemned here.
Sue
Sue
myreflection26
New Member
In reply to DHK and Lor,
If both of you would actually read previous posts of mine on this subject while I was addressing Don earier you will see I did present scripture to back up my belief of being self edified by tounges and the edification of the church. Please refere to those scriptures.
As to scripture of women not speaking in tounges. I really feel this is being taken out of context, no I don't have proof of this as of yet but the reason I feel this way is because in Chapter 11 of 1 Cor. it also tells women to have their heads covered when they prophesy or pray and that if they don't they should shave their hair cut and since it is a disgrace for a woman to have thier hair cut (how many women cut their hair?) or shaved off she should cover her head. My point in this, is how many of us women follow this?
Another point I would like to make is that in verse 34 of chapter 14 it does not say women should not speak in tounges, it says women are to be silent in the church. Big difference there. I can speak in tounges in my own home or anywhere else but not the church. Is there scripture saying women should not speak in tounges at all?
Please don't take this as my Know it all thinking as I'm not sure of all this at this point but these are the questions raising in my mind to lead me to believe from scripture there is more to this than meets the eye and I'm trying to figure it out.
Sue
If both of you would actually read previous posts of mine on this subject while I was addressing Don earier you will see I did present scripture to back up my belief of being self edified by tounges and the edification of the church. Please refere to those scriptures.
As to scripture of women not speaking in tounges. I really feel this is being taken out of context, no I don't have proof of this as of yet but the reason I feel this way is because in Chapter 11 of 1 Cor. it also tells women to have their heads covered when they prophesy or pray and that if they don't they should shave their hair cut and since it is a disgrace for a woman to have thier hair cut (how many women cut their hair?) or shaved off she should cover her head. My point in this, is how many of us women follow this?
Another point I would like to make is that in verse 34 of chapter 14 it does not say women should not speak in tounges, it says women are to be silent in the church. Big difference there. I can speak in tounges in my own home or anywhere else but not the church. Is there scripture saying women should not speak in tounges at all?
Please don't take this as my Know it all thinking as I'm not sure of all this at this point but these are the questions raising in my mind to lead me to believe from scripture there is more to this than meets the eye and I'm trying to figure it out.
Sue
myreflection26
New Member
Oops, sorry for so many posts but I keep finding scripture on other subjects brought up.
Lor, you had mentioned wanting scripture to say about improving our gifts. 1 Cor. 14:12
Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church.
Sue
Lor, you had mentioned wanting scripture to say about improving our gifts. 1 Cor. 14:12
Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church.
Sue
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by myreflection26:
DHK and Lor,
Yes and here it is, Acts 9: 15-19. You can read the whole passage if you like, but it speaks of Paul being healed<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This was the restoration of his sight after he was blinded when meeting the Lord on the road to Damascus. Jesus is the one who blinded him here, not a "messenger of Satan!" This happened before he began his ministry and was not the "thorn in his flesh" that he was referring to in 2 Corinthians 12:7 (I just noticed I had that reference wrong, I will fix that
) This affliction never left him. (v9-10)
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by myreflection26:
actually kind of answers another question of where in the bible does it have anyone laying hands on someone to recieve the holy spirit or for healing...right here verse 17 and 18.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This may show an example, but is still not the verse you were referring to in one of the gospels. Where the apostles were commissioned to go lay hands and heal the sick.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by myreflection26:
I am not saying Paul was possessed by a demon, the scripture tells us we don't wrestle with flesh and blood but against principalities and rulers of darkness which is very obviously Satan and his demons so that would tell me that Paul didn't have to be possessed to have a demon to be bugging him.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
How do you think Satan was bugging him then? I am confused as to what you are saying here.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by myreflection26:
Lor, regarding the other answers, I put them on hold for the moment to look those scriptures up since they were really bugging me. As to the other answers, I'm working on that as well.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I can respect that, I would recommend you doing just that. Be sure to read the Word and find His true meaning. I was just wondering why you had not responded yet.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by myreflection26:
I have to admit though, it kind of bugs me that you make it sound as though I'm not offering any scripture at all in any posts when that is not true at all. I'm not angry, I just feel a bit like I'm being condemned here.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I went back and quickly recounted your posts You posted 9 times prior to this one (give or take a post) and out of those you quoted verses in 1 Corinthians once, vaguely referenced the same verses twice and posted another verse once. So for 9 posts, we got two scriptures. That is what I meant.
I am not condemning, but you are the one that started this thread and as I mentioned before you said "The gifts are NOT passed away, they are still very much in action, problem is many chose to not accept them".
I am defending my stance that I am not just refusing to accept them. I do not see it as condemning or unfair to ask that you back up that accusation and what you believe with scripture.
It is the position of this board that your opinions will be challenged. In the words of the webmaster (Or whoever wrote those 3 golden rules), "Since, your opinions will be challenged, if you can not handle it, please stay out". I am not trying to personally attack you, but I am challenging you to back up what you say and believe with scripture. That is my responsibility, not only as a member of this board, but as a member of the body of Christ. How can we avoid false teachings if we don't qestion them according to God's Word?
~Lorelei
DHK and Lor,
Yes and here it is, Acts 9: 15-19. You can read the whole passage if you like, but it speaks of Paul being healed<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This was the restoration of his sight after he was blinded when meeting the Lord on the road to Damascus. Jesus is the one who blinded him here, not a "messenger of Satan!" This happened before he began his ministry and was not the "thorn in his flesh" that he was referring to in 2 Corinthians 12:7 (I just noticed I had that reference wrong, I will fix that
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by myreflection26:
actually kind of answers another question of where in the bible does it have anyone laying hands on someone to recieve the holy spirit or for healing...right here verse 17 and 18.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This may show an example, but is still not the verse you were referring to in one of the gospels. Where the apostles were commissioned to go lay hands and heal the sick.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by myreflection26:
I am not saying Paul was possessed by a demon, the scripture tells us we don't wrestle with flesh and blood but against principalities and rulers of darkness which is very obviously Satan and his demons so that would tell me that Paul didn't have to be possessed to have a demon to be bugging him.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
How do you think Satan was bugging him then? I am confused as to what you are saying here.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by myreflection26:
Lor, regarding the other answers, I put them on hold for the moment to look those scriptures up since they were really bugging me. As to the other answers, I'm working on that as well.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I can respect that, I would recommend you doing just that. Be sure to read the Word and find His true meaning. I was just wondering why you had not responded yet.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by myreflection26:
I have to admit though, it kind of bugs me that you make it sound as though I'm not offering any scripture at all in any posts when that is not true at all. I'm not angry, I just feel a bit like I'm being condemned here.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I went back and quickly recounted your posts You posted 9 times prior to this one (give or take a post) and out of those you quoted verses in 1 Corinthians once, vaguely referenced the same verses twice and posted another verse once. So for 9 posts, we got two scriptures. That is what I meant.
I am not condemning, but you are the one that started this thread and as I mentioned before you said "The gifts are NOT passed away, they are still very much in action, problem is many chose to not accept them".
I am defending my stance that I am not just refusing to accept them. I do not see it as condemning or unfair to ask that you back up that accusation and what you believe with scripture.
It is the position of this board that your opinions will be challenged. In the words of the webmaster (Or whoever wrote those 3 golden rules), "Since, your opinions will be challenged, if you can not handle it, please stay out". I am not trying to personally attack you, but I am challenging you to back up what you say and believe with scripture. That is my responsibility, not only as a member of this board, but as a member of the body of Christ. How can we avoid false teachings if we don't qestion them according to God's Word?
~Lorelei
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by myreflection26:
If both of you would actually read previous posts of mine on this subject while I was addressing Don earier you will see I did present scripture to back up my belief of being self edified by tounges and the edification of the church. Please refere to those scriptures.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Those posts were read and then challenged.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by myreflection26:
As to scripture of women not speaking in tounges. I really feel this is being taken out of context, no I don't have proof of this as of yet but the reason I feel this way is because in Chapter 11 of 1 Cor. it also tells women to have their heads covered when they prophesy or pray and that if they don't they should shave their hair cut and since it is a disgrace for a woman to have thier hair cut (how many women cut their hair?) or shaved off she should cover her head. My point in this, is how many of us women follow this?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Just because we may be wrong in not covering our heads is not a reason to continue to disobey another point in scripture. If you would like to discuss the head coverings, I would be glad to take that to another thread. 2 wrongs do not make a right.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by myreflection26:
Another point I would like to make is that in verse 34 of chapter 14 it does not say women should not speak in tounges, it says women are to be silent in the church. Big difference there. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If you read up to that point it is referring to the use of spiritual gifts in the church. Either way, even if it does not just mean tongues (which I myslef and not convinced that it only refers to silence with tongues), but to be silent, then she still can not speak in tongues in the church because she would no longer be silent.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by myreflection26:
I can speak in tounges in my own home or anywhere else but not the church. Is there scripture saying women should not speak in tounges at all?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't see anywhere that says a woman should not speak tongues at all. Our point was, that the purpose of the gift is to edify the church. If you are to be silent and can only speak tongues at home, then how can that edify the church?
1 Corinthians 14:12 "So it is with you. Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church.
13
For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says.
14
For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful." NIV
When you speak in a tongue at home are you edifying that church? Are you praying for an interpretation? Paul is stating that the gift was being used for self edification, not that it was "supposed" to be used for self edification. His entire point of the chapter is that all gifts we have shouldedify the church.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by myreflection26:
Please don't take this as my Know it all thinking as I'm not sure of all this at this point but these are the questions raising in my mind to lead me to believe from scripture there is more to this than meets the eye and I'm trying to figure it out.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Nor take mine as the same. I have mentioned many times that I am still learning. When you challenge me, then I have to look up the Word and confirm or deny what I believe. That is a good thing, not a bad thing. I am doing the same to you. We are told to always have an answer ready for the hope that is within us, nothing wrong in doing that.
There is also no need to apologize for so many posts. I am delighted to see the conversation turning to the Word of God. Share away!
~Lorelei
If both of you would actually read previous posts of mine on this subject while I was addressing Don earier you will see I did present scripture to back up my belief of being self edified by tounges and the edification of the church. Please refere to those scriptures.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Those posts were read and then challenged.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by myreflection26:
As to scripture of women not speaking in tounges. I really feel this is being taken out of context, no I don't have proof of this as of yet but the reason I feel this way is because in Chapter 11 of 1 Cor. it also tells women to have their heads covered when they prophesy or pray and that if they don't they should shave their hair cut and since it is a disgrace for a woman to have thier hair cut (how many women cut their hair?) or shaved off she should cover her head. My point in this, is how many of us women follow this?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Just because we may be wrong in not covering our heads is not a reason to continue to disobey another point in scripture. If you would like to discuss the head coverings, I would be glad to take that to another thread. 2 wrongs do not make a right.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by myreflection26:
Another point I would like to make is that in verse 34 of chapter 14 it does not say women should not speak in tounges, it says women are to be silent in the church. Big difference there. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If you read up to that point it is referring to the use of spiritual gifts in the church. Either way, even if it does not just mean tongues (which I myslef and not convinced that it only refers to silence with tongues), but to be silent, then she still can not speak in tongues in the church because she would no longer be silent.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by myreflection26:
I can speak in tounges in my own home or anywhere else but not the church. Is there scripture saying women should not speak in tounges at all?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't see anywhere that says a woman should not speak tongues at all. Our point was, that the purpose of the gift is to edify the church. If you are to be silent and can only speak tongues at home, then how can that edify the church?
1 Corinthians 14:12 "So it is with you. Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church.
13
For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says.
14
For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful." NIV
When you speak in a tongue at home are you edifying that church? Are you praying for an interpretation? Paul is stating that the gift was being used for self edification, not that it was "supposed" to be used for self edification. His entire point of the chapter is that all gifts we have shouldedify the church.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by myreflection26:
Please don't take this as my Know it all thinking as I'm not sure of all this at this point but these are the questions raising in my mind to lead me to believe from scripture there is more to this than meets the eye and I'm trying to figure it out.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Nor take mine as the same. I have mentioned many times that I am still learning. When you challenge me, then I have to look up the Word and confirm or deny what I believe. That is a good thing, not a bad thing. I am doing the same to you. We are told to always have an answer ready for the hope that is within us, nothing wrong in doing that.
There is also no need to apologize for so many posts. I am delighted to see the conversation turning to the Word of God. Share away!
~Lorelei
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by myreflection26:
Oops, sorry for so many posts but I keep finding scripture on other subjects brought up.
Lor, you had mentioned wanting scripture to say about improving our gifts. 1 Cor. 14:12
Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church.
Sue<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thanks so much! That is why I ask for scripture, because sometimes I miss so much! I stand corrected.
Back the Word and my studies on this topic!
~Lorelei
Oops, sorry for so many posts but I keep finding scripture on other subjects brought up.
Lor, you had mentioned wanting scripture to say about improving our gifts. 1 Cor. 14:12
Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church.
Sue<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thanks so much! That is why I ask for scripture, because sometimes I miss so much! I stand corrected.
Back the Word and my studies on this topic!
~Lorelei
myreflection26
New Member
Lor,
I'm sorry, I need to clearify something. I didn't mean I am offended at needing to back up my beliefs with scripture, thats no problem. I just didn't have much time to respond and then I seemed like I was being pushed to share is all. I'm cool with it.
Btw, I had no idea of the scripture to excel gifts either so we both learned something new today.
1 Cor. 14 ..Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especailly the gift of prophecy.
Paul is saying desire and want the gifts and definately prophesy but go after then with love and use them in love.
Verse 2..For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.
When you speak in tongues you are speaking mysteries to God from your spirit, no one understands them but God.
Verse 3..But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort.
Paul is explaining why it is good to prophecy.
Verse 4..He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.
Paul is explaining the reason why prophecy is greater than tongues. Btw, this would also be my scriptural reasoning for why I believe tongues is also self edifying to my spiritual walk.
Verse 5..I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy.
Paul is saying here, I would like for everyone to speak in tongues but fact is prophesy is a greater gift. Ok, really bad example but work with me, at mcdonalds they say Hey we want to you buy a hamburger and fries and drink separately but it would be better for you to buy a value meal since its cheaper for you and more economical. Paul is not saying, don't speak in tongues he is only saying that its better to prophesy here.
Verse 5 continued..He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.
Basically, Paul is saying, Look, you can speak in tongues and that is edifying your walk with God but unless there is an interpretation of your tongues for the church it doesn't edify the church so prophesy is better since it edifies the church.
Verse 13 For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says.
When you speak in a tongue, pray and ask God for the interpretation so you can know what it means.
Verse 14..For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.
When you pray in a tongue you have no idea what you are saying (unless you are given interpretation) so your spirit is praying mysteries but your mind isn't being fruitful during this time.
Verse 15.. So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind.
Paul is saying, well how can we do this? How about if we pray in a tongue (with my spirit) and also pray with my mind (pray as normal) I'll sing in a tongue (with my spirit) but I'll also sing as I normally would.
Ugggg, I'll keep quoting if you desire me to do so, but for now, I'm getting tired so I'll take a break from this.
I still have some answers yet to give so don't worry, I'm still planning to offer the answer just give me a moment to catch up here ok?
Sue
I'm sorry, I need to clearify something. I didn't mean I am offended at needing to back up my beliefs with scripture, thats no problem. I just didn't have much time to respond and then I seemed like I was being pushed to share is all. I'm cool with it.
Btw, I had no idea of the scripture to excel gifts either so we both learned something new today.
1 Cor. 14 ..Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especailly the gift of prophecy.
Paul is saying desire and want the gifts and definately prophesy but go after then with love and use them in love.
Verse 2..For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.
When you speak in tongues you are speaking mysteries to God from your spirit, no one understands them but God.
Verse 3..But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort.
Paul is explaining why it is good to prophecy.
Verse 4..He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.
Paul is explaining the reason why prophecy is greater than tongues. Btw, this would also be my scriptural reasoning for why I believe tongues is also self edifying to my spiritual walk.
Verse 5..I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy.
Paul is saying here, I would like for everyone to speak in tongues but fact is prophesy is a greater gift. Ok, really bad example but work with me, at mcdonalds they say Hey we want to you buy a hamburger and fries and drink separately but it would be better for you to buy a value meal since its cheaper for you and more economical. Paul is not saying, don't speak in tongues he is only saying that its better to prophesy here.
Verse 5 continued..He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.
Basically, Paul is saying, Look, you can speak in tongues and that is edifying your walk with God but unless there is an interpretation of your tongues for the church it doesn't edify the church so prophesy is better since it edifies the church.
Verse 13 For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says.
When you speak in a tongue, pray and ask God for the interpretation so you can know what it means.
Verse 14..For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.
When you pray in a tongue you have no idea what you are saying (unless you are given interpretation) so your spirit is praying mysteries but your mind isn't being fruitful during this time.
Verse 15.. So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind.
Paul is saying, well how can we do this? How about if we pray in a tongue (with my spirit) and also pray with my mind (pray as normal) I'll sing in a tongue (with my spirit) but I'll also sing as I normally would.
Ugggg, I'll keep quoting if you desire me to do so, but for now, I'm getting tired so I'll take a break from this.
I still have some answers yet to give so don't worry, I'm still planning to offer the answer just give me a moment to catch up here ok?
Sue
Sue,
You don't know how much it touches my heart to see the study you have done, even though you obviously got tired of typing it! *lol* Take all the time you need, I am in no hurry. Actually I just got home and think I am catching a cold, so I am going to lay down. I will respond to what you have written later. I just had to a take a moment to tell you thanks so much for taking the time to explain yourself more thoroughly according to scripture. We may still disagree on some interpretations, but at least we have a specific basis to look upon in the Word.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by myreflection26:
Ugggg, I'll keep quoting if you desire me to do so, but for now, I'm getting tired so I'll take a break from this<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Are you typing those scriptures word for word??? Hey, I cheat! *hehe* I open a new browser window so that I have two of them open, and with one browser I go to http://www.biblegateway.com and put in the Book and chapter I want. Then I copy the verses I want, return to the browser I am typing my response in and paste it! I can also quickly look up any scripture that is given by someone else so that I can see it in context.
Anyway, just a helpful hint if you were not doing something similiar already.
Until later...after my nap
~Lorelei
You don't know how much it touches my heart to see the study you have done, even though you obviously got tired of typing it! *lol* Take all the time you need, I am in no hurry. Actually I just got home and think I am catching a cold, so I am going to lay down. I will respond to what you have written later. I just had to a take a moment to tell you thanks so much for taking the time to explain yourself more thoroughly according to scripture. We may still disagree on some interpretations, but at least we have a specific basis to look upon in the Word.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by myreflection26:
Ugggg, I'll keep quoting if you desire me to do so, but for now, I'm getting tired so I'll take a break from this<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Are you typing those scriptures word for word??? Hey, I cheat! *hehe* I open a new browser window so that I have two of them open, and with one browser I go to http://www.biblegateway.com and put in the Book and chapter I want. Then I copy the verses I want, return to the browser I am typing my response in and paste it! I can also quickly look up any scripture that is given by someone else so that I can see it in context.
Anyway, just a helpful hint if you were not doing something similiar already.
Until later...after my nap
~Lorelei