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Charismatic Theology

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by myreflection26, Sep 25, 2001.

  1. myreflection26

    myreflection26 New Member

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    Lor,

    Yeah actually I am typing them word for word for every little single word :eek: does anyone have toothpicks to prop my eyes open?

    I'll try those tips, I've tried doing the copy and paste thing on here and for some reason it's not working for me hmph :mad: so I've had to do it the loooooong way.

    Anyway, I'll post more of this later too, I'm taking a break from laundry blah [​IMG]

    Sue
     
  2. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    Sue, things have gotten lost. Although, this post isn't just for you....

    I'll keep my question as simple as possible: What is the gift of tongues (exactly)?
     
  3. Chet

    Chet New Member

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    1 Pursue love,and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

    We have to define what Prophesy is. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Strongs Dictionary says: "NT:4395 propheteuo (prof-ate-yoo'-o); from NT:4396; to foretell events, divine, speak under inspiration, exercise the prophetic office:KJV prophesy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    This is accurate. As you read the OT, you find it was dealing with people who spoke for God to the people in a prophetic utterance. It is to know the future. And if a prophecy has been uttered, it awaits its fulfillment. Paul here is teaching that there is also a gift of prophecy. Remember it is ceasing (1 Cor 13:8). But at the time this letter was written, this gift was still in existence. As all gifts were. Paul is saying that he has a desire for them to prophesy. The true mark of a prophet of God is if the prophecy came true. If you have people going around prophesying, then they risk the chance of being found out. Either way, Paul would rather them prophesy over speaking in tongues as we will see.

    2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

    Keep this in mind, when Paul mentions tongues, it is the Biblical tongues, not what we see today. Why does he say this? Because tongues were languages that no one could understand. The KJV is somewhat misleading when they insert the word unknown. They were only unknown to those who did not know that language. Spanish is unknown to me. But it is still a known language. Tongues in the Bible is always a real language. The only person who could understand what was being spoken was God, not man. He is speaking mysteries to those around him.

    3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men.

    This is important. The person who had the gift of prophesy spoke words that edified those in the Church, and brought comfort. The main reason that it was edifying was because people could understand what the person was saying, instead of just wondering.

    4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.

    The reason the one who speaks in tongues edified himself is because that is the only person who could possibly understand what he was saying. And not always did the actual person who spoke in tongues understand himself, but sometimes he did. As we will see. Only God and the person could understand what was being spoken, not anyone in the Church. Unless there was an interpreter. Again Paul teaches that Prophesies edify's the Church. While today we don't have a literal prophet, we do have prophecies such as what is found in the Book of Revelation. And look at what is said in Rev 1:3.

    5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.

    Paul is clearly teaching here that he would rather people prophesied. And that this person is the one who is greater! Now this is a verse that is often overlooked. One key phrase that is, unless indeed he interprets, I believe that Paul is saying that the person who is speaking that language is actually able to interpret his own language. If one of two things were true. Either they were educated to know that language and then it would not be a miracle, or either God allowed them to understand it. Later Paul tells them to pray for God to give them understanding. If God gave me the gift of tongues in Spanish, then I would be able to also interpret that same Spanish into English. All so the Church could receive edification, so they would understand.

    6 But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you unless I speak to you either by revelation, by knowledge, by prophesying, or by teaching?

    This is all again to say that what good is it to speak in tongues? What shall it profit? Paul says he needs to either speak by revelation, knowledge, or prophesying, or to teach. These edify. I must say, why do we hear so much about tongues in the Charismatic Churches? Tongues did not profit the Church or edify it.

    7 Even things without life, whether flute or harp, when they make a sound, unless they make a distinction in the sounds, how will it be known what is piped or played?

    That would be a description of me trying to play the piano. I can't do it. It comes out as just noise. But put those key in front of someone who can play, and it makes sense.

    8 For if the trumpet makes an uncertain sound, who will prepare himself for battle?

    This has roots in the trumpet callings in the OT. There was a certain sound a trumpet was to make that would call all troops to battle. There has to be a distinguish in the sounds. Otherwise they would not prepare for battle. If the improper sound was made everyone would run around confused.
    And not knowing what was being sounded. Same is true of Tongues.

    9 So likewise you, unless you utter by the tongue words easy to understand, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air.

    Again this is yet another point of the purpose of tongues. All your doing is speaking to the air.

    10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of languages in the world, and none of them is without significance.

    This is a verse to show that tongues is a real language. There are many different kinds, and they all have significance.

    11 Therefore, if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a foreigner to him who speaks, and he who speaks will be a foreigner to me.

    This is part two of verse 10. Tongues is a language (Acts 2). It is an unknown language for someone who does not speak that language.

    12 Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel.

    Paul says that they were all wanting a gift so badly, then if so let it be a gift that can be used for edification.

    13 Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret.

    This goes with verse 5. If you speak it, then you pray that you can also interpret it, otherwise it is completely meaningless.

    14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.

    Paul recognized that there were those who even prayed in tongues. But they did not know what they were praying for. And it was unfruitful, therefore what good is it to try to pray in tongues? How can God be pleased with any communication that we can't even understand? That is not what praying is about.

    15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding.

    Paul says, don't do it in tongues. Speak a language so that you can understand and that those around you can understand.

    16 Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say "Amen" at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say?

    Doesn't this really start to come together? How can we all agree in Spirit and shout AMEN (so be it) in the service if we have no clue as to what was just said?

    17 For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified.

    If you understand the tongue, you can give thanks, but no one else can. How is this unity?

    18 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all;

    Probably Paul had the gift of every tongue. Remember, he is the vessel to speak unto the Gentiles.

    19 yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.

    This is my favorite verse in the whole chapter. Five words of a known language, than ten thousand in an unknown. This is very Interesting. How can this be overlooked? How does this possibly give creditability to the Charismatic who wants to speak in tongues?

    20 Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature.

    Paul tells them to grow up.

    21 In the law it is written: "With men of other tongues and other lips I will speak to this people; And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me,"says the Lord.

    This is prophetic, and they were living right in the fulfillment of the prophecy. The prophecy was about to be fulfilled. Just as soon as the Word of God is complete.

    22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.

    This is another key verse. Tongues were a sign to the unbelieving Jews. Not to the Church. Yet we are told in Pentecostal Churches that in order to prove your Salvation then you spoke in tongues.

    23 Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind?

    Charismatic have not only hurt people in their theological damage, but also in this way. A person who is lost who has no Biblical knowledge, or Religious knowledge simply looks at "Christianity" as a whole thinking Pentecostalism is included. They think we are nuts. Have you ever noticed that in the Movies the person who is in the nut house is the one who is quoting Scripture? The world has now pegged us as nuts, and the Charismatic contributed to this greatly. If someone walks into a Pentecostal Church for the first time, they will think they are crazy, and they would be right. Paul is teaching that they should not all be speaking in tongues at the same time.

    24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes in, he is convinced by all, he is convicted by all.

    This will show the unbeliever that in a true worship service that Christians are seeking God, His will, and His knowledge. They were not nuts. Then he is convicted. Now I am not sure exactly why he is convicted. But I will have to trust Paul on this one.

    25 And thus the secrets of his heart are revealed; and so, falling down on his face, he will worship God and report that God is truly among you.

    Because of the understanding. This for sure, it won't have this result if people are speaking in tongues.

    26 How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.

    This is how is should be done. Each person has their own gift.

    27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret.

    One at a time, in turn, and only three people were to speak in tongues. And make sure that someone interprets it, and that person may be the same person who spoke it. This is order, something we don't see in Charismatic circles.

    28 But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God.

    Keep quiet if you can't interpret or if no one is there to do that.

    29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge.

    Same with the prophets. Keep order.

    30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent.

    Let one person speak at once.

    31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.

    This is an orderly fashion, and then its not confusion, and they can all learn and be encouraged.

    32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

    This is another key in understanding the gifts. The gifts were given to the person. For example if I had the gift of tongues, then I could use that gift when I wanted to. I was not subject to anything other than myself. I controlled it. It was not like we hear today where God overpowered a person and they spoke as God led them. It is the opposite. God gave the gift and they spoke when they wanted to. The same was true with the prophetic gift here in this verse God is teaching them to be controlled. Don't let your gifts get out of hand.

    33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

    Because God is not the author of confusion. My question is, where do you find confusion today? Pentecostal Churches is full of it.

    34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says.

    This is something else I believe about tongues. I don't think that God wanted the gift to be used by any woman in Church. In fact you won't find this being used by women, and in Acts it teaches that only the Men were speaking in tongues. J.V. McGee said that if you take women out of the Pentecostal movement, then it would die overnight. Paul told the women to keep silent. In context here is only speaking of tongues. They were not permitted to speak in tongues. This again fly's in the face of the Charismatic movement, doesn't it.

    Chet

    [ September 28, 2001: Message edited by: Chet ]
     
  4. myreflection26

    myreflection26 New Member

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    Chet,

    I don't have time right now to post scripture and proof at this moment, but I have seen some serious flaws in your interpretation of these particular verses and will point it out either tomarrow or in the next fews days here. Its definatly not personal so please don't consider it that way. I just noticed in cross reference that some things don't match up to what you are interpreting here. Plus, something to keep in mind, I think this is actually a good thing to have experience in and why the experience of the gift of tongues is good to have in these discussions. Have you ever spoken in tongues? Just a question.

    Blessings,

    Sue [​IMG]
     
  5. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    Sue, I really pray that you'll answer my question first.

    What exactly is the gift of tongues?
     
  6. Lorelei

    Lorelei <img src ="http://www.amacominc.com/~lorelei/mgsm.

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    Wow did I miss a lot in one evening! Thanks for the post Chet! Excellent explanations! You just saved me a lot of time, no need to repeat things! *hehe*

    I do actually have some things I would like to comment on in Sue's post, but I will respect Don and answer his question. I think it is important if we all give our definition of the gift of tongues.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>From http://bible.crosswalk.com/InterlinearBible/bible.cgi :KJV New Testament
    Greek Lexicon
    Strong's Number: 1100
    Original Word Word Origin
    glossa of uncertain affinity
    Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
    Glossa 1:719,123
    Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
    gloce-sah' Noun Feminine

    Definition
    the tongue, a member of the body, an organ of speech
    a tongue
    the language or dialect used by a particular people distinct from that of other nations
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    There is much talk of a gift of the tongues of angels, but I see only verse in the Bible referring to that. (1 Corinthians 13:1 - If there are others, please show me, for this is the only one that I know of) I find it odd that one verse even mentions the tongues of angels, yet most people who speak in tongues today say that is the gift that they have, and some even say that this is the evidence of the Spirit baptism. Everywhere else in the Bible tongues are a specific language spoken by a particular group of people. There is no proper teaching on the tongues of angels anywhere.

    This is also why I do not see a "necessity" for this gift. Since we live in a global society today, there are many people who have learned most languages. There is no need for me in America to be speaking Japanese in my own home when there are missionaries who have learned Japanese and are speaking it to those who know the language and sharing the gospel of Christ with them personally.

    Sue did mention the importance of experiencing this gift and I disagree. If Paul kept saying prophecying was better and he would rather have us prophecy then if I were to seek the experience of a gift (which I do not seek "experience") then I would rather prophecy. We should desire after spiritual gifts for one reason, to edify the church, not ourselves.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>1 Corinthians 12:12
    So it is with you. Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Ephesians 4:11
    It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers,
    12
    to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Paul did say that those who speak in tongues edify themselves, but he never said that was the "proper" use for the gift. He says you should always pray for interpretation otherwise your understanding is unfruitful. What good is a spiritual gift that does not bear fruit?

    There is more I would like to go into, but I know Don is patiently waiting for Sue's answer so I will try not get her too side tracked. [​IMG]

    ~Lorelei

    PS. Hey for me this is a "short" post, be thankful you don't know me personally and have to listen to me ramble all day long! :D
     
  7. Chet

    Chet New Member

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    Lorelei, excellent post! Excellent.

    Sue, you asked me if I have ever spoke in tongues? The answer is yes I have, English.

    And I too am waiting for Don's good question to be answered.
     
  8. myreflection26

    myreflection26 New Member

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    Don,

    I apologize to be ignoring your question. My intent is to answer it promptly, but please be patient, lately I've not had much time to be online and when I get the chance it's very rushed and I certainly want to give a well thought out and learned answer to you as you definately deserve.

    I kind of got onto a rabbit trail in answering others and leaving you in the cold and I'm sorry about that. Not that the converstaions with others have not been good I just needed to have finished with you first. Anyway, if you can hold on I will provide an answer ok? Thanks ;)

    Sue
     
  9. myreflection26

    myreflection26 New Member

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    Don,

    Whew sorry for the long delay in my response to your question. Thank you so much for your patience and kindness in this matter.

    1 Cor. 14: 14 ..For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. verse 15.. So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind.

    Paul is saying here that if we pray with our spirit, our minds are being unfruitful. I find this so true as since I do speak in tongues my mind is not thinking of anything in particular, however, I've learned to pray in my head as well as pray in tongues so I'll pray for certain things and also pray in tongues.

    Verse 2.. For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.

    This is one of the reasons I believe we have tongues to use for today, because we are uttering mysteries in our spirit that only God can understand. I can't remember where the scripture is found (perhaps someone could enlighten me) but it speaks of when we have no idea what to pray that the spirit groans and moans for us to God. I'm not saying this has anything to do with tongues, but this is one of the relative things I find compatable in explaining the purpose for using tongues.

    Verse 4 ...He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.

    Don, I believe tongues is speaking an unknown language of mysteries to God. Sometimes interpreted to edify the church and sometimes to edify ones walk with God.

    This is also where personal experience is very helpful. I speak in tongues and I can tell you that although there is mysteries in tongues there is also much power in it to even though it is least of all gifts. I put this to the test one night when my husband and I were having a fight and I was hurting badly, we were in the car and I couldn't just walk away but God laid it on my heart to begin verbally praying in tongues so I did and the whole thing completely changed my husband's attitude within literally seconds and actually brought him to a point of tears and we apologized and made up. My husband is very hard headed and won't break down for much of anything, so this really shocked me when his heart was tendered imediately.

    I have some additional thoughts to these scriptures and actually others but I wanted to address Don imediately.

    Don, I hope this helps you to understand my position. If there are any questions about it feel free to ask ok?

    [​IMG]
    Sue
     
  10. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    "I put this to the test one night when my husband and I were having a fight and I was hurting badly, we were in the car and I couldn't just walk away but God laid it on my heart to begin verbally praying in tongues so I did and the whole thing completely changed my husband's attitude within literally seconds and actually brought him to a point of tears and we apologized and made up."
    So, basically for you tongues is a psychological emotional release of energy resulting in verbiage that doesn't make any sense but may calm your nerves a bit. Would that be a proper assessment?
    DHK
     
  11. myreflection26

    myreflection26 New Member

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    DHK,

    I can see that in sharing one particular experience is considered my total assesment of my belief...HARDLY. It was something at that moment that God spoke to me on, believe me I didn't exactly "feel" like praying in tongues at that moment but felt more like belting my husband in the head, but since I did it in obedience to God he really changed the situation and changed my husband's heart.

    Sue
     
  12. Lorelei

    Lorelei <img src ="http://www.amacominc.com/~lorelei/mgsm.

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by myreflection26:
    Paul is saying here that if we pray with our spirit, our minds are being unfruitful. I find this so true as since I do speak in tongues my mind is not thinking of anything in particular, however, I've learned to pray in my head as well as pray in tongues so I'll pray for certain things and also pray in tongues.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Sue,

    If you look at verse 14 in context with what is around it, you will see that Paul is still talking about the use of tongues for edifying the church, he never refers to our "Personal" use of tongues anywhere.

    1 Corinthians 14:12
    So it is with you. Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church


    13 For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says

    If you speak in a tongue you are supposed to pray for an interpretation. You are not supposed to keep that a "mystery".

    14
    For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful


    Paul is saying this is not supposed to be how it is done. So he shows us how it is supposed to work.

    15
    So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind.


    He is not saying to pray "mysteries" AND pray with your own words. He is saying Pray in tongues and pray for the interpretation of those tongues so that your mind will indeed understand. (go back to v 13) "pray that he may interpret".

    Again, this is still talking about use of tongues for the Church (there are no instructions about tongues for personal use anywhere). This is obvious by looking at v 14 again.

    Once again let us look at v 14 within the context of the verse before and after it.

    For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says.
    14
    For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.
    15
    So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind.


    v 13 - you should interpret
    v 14 - for if you do not the understanding is unfruitful.
    v 15 - So, pray for the understanding so that the gift will bear fruit.

    (Gal 5:22 mentions the fruit of the Spirit, I can not see a gift of the Spirit for a purpose that is unfruitful)

    You must keep the verse within context at all times. By ignoring the verse preceding and following it, you have gotten an entirely different meaning from it. These verses are so closely related, (immediately preceding and following the other) that you can not ingnore thier content.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by myreflection26:

    Verse 2.. For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.

    This is one of the reasons I believe we have tongues to use for today, because we are uttering mysteries in our spirit that only God can understand.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Again let us put that verse in context. Paul is saying why Prophecy is better. He is not just saying that prophecy is better but go ahead and speak in tongues to edify yourself if you want. On the contrary, he goes into quite a long explanation of why you should not do so. (Remember v 14 where it says it is unfruitful).

    5
    I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified


    He did not say, I would rather everyone speak in tongues at home, but in the church I would rather you interpret. Again, he is still speaking of the use of tongues in church. He does not say how you should use the gift in your home ever. He is saying, he would rather you prophecy unless you interpret. Otherwise it is "unfruitful".

    Verses 6-11 go on to explain just that. Why speaking in tongues without intperpretation is unfruitful. Why it is not the proper way. Then we reach where we were in V 12-15 where he tells us how to do so properly. Pray for interpretation!

    Paul explains this very clearly in v 10
    10
    Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning


    There is an interpretation. Your Spirit may be speaking mysteries, but your mind is supposed to know. So pray for interpretation (v 13). There are no tongues that are without meaning! Remember, the word tongue means language. All language is for communication. What good is it to speak if there is no communication going on?

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by myreflection26:

    I can't remember where the scripture is found (perhaps someone could enlighten me) but it speaks of when we have no idea what to pray that the spirit groans and moans for us to God. I'm not saying this has anything to do with tongues, but this is one of the relative things I find compatable in explaining the purpose for using tongues.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    The purpose for tongues is clearly laid out in 1 Corinthians. The purpose was for a sign and the gift was a specific language to be used to edify the church. There is no teaching on how to use tongues personally, without edifying the church. The reason would be, is that we are not supposed to do that. I wonder why we think God gives us gifts for our own personal benefit? If God gives you a gift, like teaching, what good is that to only teach yourself? Or preaching, how does it work if you preach only to yourself? What about healing, if you want to self edify can you only heal yourself? God gives the gift for one reason. To edify the Church. 1 Corinthians 12:7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by myreflection26:

    Don, I believe tongues is speaking an unknown language of mysteries to God. Sometimes interpreted to edify the church and sometimes to edify ones walk with God.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Again, I ask you, where does it teach about self edification. I have shown evidence that no where in this chapter was it promoting self edification, but rather why not to use tongues that way. Your gift should never be unfruitful.


    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by myreflection26:

    This is also where personal experience is very helpful. I speak in tongues and I can tell you that although there is mysteries in tongues there is also much power in it to even though it is least of all gifts.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    There are not supposed to be mysteries. How can you experience God's power if your mind if unfruitful? The Spirit will bear fruit, Paul says this is unfruitful. God gave you this gift for the common good, not your own use.

    18
    I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.


    Many use this verse to say the opposite of what I have said. But look at the context this is in. Paul has clearly stated how to use tongues in the church. The the use of tongues should edify the church, period. Sure he spoke tongues more then anyone else AND following his own teachings, he did so to eidfy the church. He did not talk about his personal experience with tongues or how it edified his personal walk. He uses this as an example to say that he speaks in tongues more then everyone else but if he is in church (for still we are talking about the common good) he would rather prophecy. No, this does not mean when he is not in church he speaks in tongues to edify himself. Remember what tongues is? A language. Also remember in v 10 Paul said there is no language without meaning? Paul was a missionary that went all over to preach the gospel. I am certain that God gifted him with the ability to speak many languages he never knew before. But he is talking about what to do in a church service, not how to use that gift of languages on the mission field, nor in the closet of your home.

    I would really urge you to look at what the purpose of your gift is. I know the experience seems so wonderful to you, but I ask you to please question what that experience is all about. If your mind is unfruitful, what is going on? We are not told that our mind is unfruitful but our experience will give us awesome power anyway. We are told to interpret it (v13). We are told what you are saying does have meaning (v10).

    Do you see how this should all tie together? Did this make any sense at all? Keep reading these chapters together in order. See how they all tie in together and carry one theme, the use of the gifts in the Body of Christ.

    ~Lorelei

    [ October 01, 2001: Message edited by: Lorelei ]
     
  13. myreflection26

    myreflection26 New Member

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    Lor,

    I can tell you we definately disagree on the interpretation on these verses. Some of this I do agree with you on, but the majority of it I don't.


    I definately don't agree with you that Paul is saying don't speak in tongues at all.
    That is not what these scriptures are implying.


    verse 2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed no one understands him he utters mysteries with his spirit.

    verse 3 But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort. VERSE 4..He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.

    Paul is saying here. Hey ya'll if you speak in tongues you are speaking mysteries to God, and that is for self edification (he's not saying self edification is a bad thing and never does)

    He's also pointing out that prophesy is greater obviously since its helpful to the church more so than tongues but he never once says to not do it. In fact...verse 39 confirms that where it says....Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. verse40 But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.

    My mind is not unfruitful when I pray in tongues, I thought I mentioned that when I posted last time but I guess it wasn't understood or something.

    Paul has shown us in these scriptures there are two different ways to edify thru tongues. One thru personal edification, and one thru edifying the church. Both should be done properly and neither should be forbidden. Prophesy is clearly the greater of this gift but it says no where that we are not to do it.

    Sue
     
  14. myreflection26

    myreflection26 New Member

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    DHK,

    I also do not want to ignore your question as you have also been very gracious in your long wait.

    In concerns to women' silence in the church, I come across some interesting points of thought on this.

    1 Cor. 14: 34..Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submision, as the Law says. Verse 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

    You placed a question of my gift of tongues in relation to these verses. First of all, I pray in tongues in my home and in the above verses I see nothing where it says women can't pray in tongues in thier homes.

    Something else I want to point out that has been tugging at my brain ;) The above scriptures says women should remain silent in the churches, that they are not allowed to speak but must wait to get home. If we take this scripture and apply it to what it literally says, then that means EVERY church had better take all the women out of teaching positions of every kind in the church, including teaching children, other women, teenagers, singing in the choir or solo. The scripture actually says it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. So while we are actually in the church we are not to speak in any shape or form.

    Do I believe there is more to this than meets the eye? Oh yeah, I'm just pointing this out for thought is all.

    Sue
     
  15. Lorelei

    Lorelei <img src ="http://www.amacominc.com/~lorelei/mgsm.

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    Yes I can see we are not agreeing on the interpretation. I ask you this. What tongue/tongues are you speaking? Do you acknowledge that a tongue is a language?

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by myreflection26:
    My mind is not unfruitful when I pray in tongues, I thought I mentioned that when I posted last time but I guess it wasn't understood or something.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    You did say that, but the Bible says that your mind is not fruitful.

    1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by myreflection26:

    Paul has shown us in these scriptures there are two different ways to edify thru tongues. One thru personal edification, and one thru edifying the church. Both should be done properly and neither should be forbidden. Prophesy is clearly the greater of this gift but it says no where that we are not to do it.

    Sue
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


    Where does it show us the proper way to use tongues for self edification? This chapter is referring to the proper way to use tongues for the Church. If you agree that it must be done properly, how do you know if you are doing it properly?

    ~Lorelei
     
  16. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    "You placed a question of my gift of tongues in relation to these verses. First of all, I pray in tongues in my home and in the above verses I see nothing where it says women can't pray in tongues in thier homes."

    Your argument is from silence, not from Scripture. The purpose of tongues was for a sign to the unbelieving Jew to show to him that Christianity was authentic. The other purpose was to make up the deficiency in the complete canon of the Word of God. When the Word of God was completed, "made perfect" (1Cor.13:9), than those sign gifts such as tongues ceased. They were originally for the local churches, and only for the churches. They were never intended to be used at home for self- edification. You cannot find that in Scripture. The whole context of 1Corinthians 14 is addressing the problems of tongues in relation to the local church.
    Should women remain silent in the church. Absolutely! The problem was that during the preaching of the Word of God, some woman would stand up and speak in tongues interrupting the preaching of God's Word. That would be comparable to a woman asking a question or making an objection in the middle of a pastor's sermon. Remain silent! If you have any questions ask your husband at home. That is what Paul taught. Let everything be done decently and in order.
    As far as teaching positions are concerned, there are other Scriptures that deal with this.
    1Tim.2:12 "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."
    --A woman may not have authority over a man. This means she may be a Sunday school teacher, teaching children and other women. The stipulation is that she cannot teach men.
    Yes, as you said, "it was disgraceful for women to speak in the church." In the context, it was speaking of the normal service of the church when the preaching was done, when the Word of God would have been interrupted. Remember, choirs and Sunday Schools did not develop until much later in history.

    The main question you must consider is that asked by Don, "What is the gift of tongues?"
    Tongues is not mysterious. It is not unknown. The word unknown in 1Corinthians 14 is in italics and was put there by the translators. Tongues means languages. Speaking in a tongue was speaking in a known tongue, just unknown to yourself. The Biblical concept of tongues, if in operation today, would operates somewhat like this. I am a missionary to Pakistan. The two major languages of Pakistan are Urdu and Punjabi. When I first went to Pakistan I had to learn Urdu, their national language. It was a difficult language to learn, but I can now speak it somewhat fluently. Had I gone there, never hearing those languages before, and God gave me the power and enablement to speak those languages immediately and fluently to the Pakistani people, that would be the Biblical gift of tongues. But God did not do that. I had to study and learn. Tongues have ceased.
    Look in Acts chapter two. In verses five to eleven, how many nations and languages can you count. There are about fifteen. Verse four says "they began to speak with other TONGUES." Verse six says that "every man heard them speak in his own "LANGUAGE." Likewise look at verses eight and eleven. The words "tongues" and "languages" are interchangeable, because a tongue is a known language. What language do you speak in Sue? Who interprets it into English? Which nation of people is it benefitting? Then remember, according to 1Cor.14:21,22, Biblical tongues is for the benefit of the nation of the Jews.

    DHK
     
  17. qwerty

    qwerty New Member

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    Sue,
    A book that you might read, if you haven't:

    The Beauty of Spiritual Language - Unveiling the Mystery of Speaking in Tongues

    by Jack Hayford

    Pastor Hayford describes his own experience with "speaking in tongues,". In sensible, biblical terms he describes how tongues speaking is neither gibberish nor emotional exuberance, but rather an intimate encounter with the heart of God.

    This insightful book will tear down the stereotypes that surround the practice of speaking in tongues. From the heart and mind of Dr. Hayford, comes an intimate devotional work on walking with God. In this portrait of his spiritual journey, he helps the reader to see both the maturity of a contemporary Christian leader and the experience God intends for all His children.

    This is the best book I have read about speaking in tongues. It is very devotional in nature. Dr. Hayford gives several personal experiences.
     
  18. qwerty

    qwerty New Member

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    Do not forbid to speak in tongues

    1CO 14:39 Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.

    An Apostolic directive. If the results of your teaching are that tongues are forbidden, then you are at odds with the Holy Spirit.

    Tongues are both known and unknown to man

    1CO 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.

    Paul here says that there are tongues of angels. He shows that it is possible for a man to speak in a language that is not one of earthly origin.

    Praying and singing in tongues

    1Cor. 14:[14] For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. [15] So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind.

    Paul shows that praying and singing in tongues is acceptable.

    Paul shows the value he places on tongues.

    1CO 14:18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.

    Paul does give other directions relating to tongues, but those directions do not take away from these teachings that he taught.
     
  19. myreflection26

    myreflection26 New Member

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    qwerty,

    Thank you so much for the help. I have biblical answers for all and good ones to that pertain and in context. Its a bit overwhelming having several people asking different questions and trying to answer every person.

    Sounds as though that book you are talking about may be interesting to say the least. There is so much I have been trying to read lately and right now there are two main books other than scriptures that I've had to read and so my reading is kind of tied up right now but I would be interested in furthur info if you have a link to this guy's site so I can get a better idea of what he believes and stands for.

    Thanks
    ;)
    Sue
     
  20. myreflection26

    myreflection26 New Member

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    DHK, Lor

    I can pretty much tell you that we will not see eye to eye on this matter. I will try to answer each question scripturally and in a clear manner. There are many questions posed that I have to answer so keep sticking with me on this and we'll keep studying. [​IMG]

    Sue
     
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