Charity?

[SBCPreacher]

One thing filling needs does do... I then have an opportunity to share the gospel with them, usually after we help. I don't want it to come across as, "if you get saved, we'll help you." We begin by asking about church affiliation, but usually get around to their relationship with Christ. Some are interested, some aren't.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

If an unsaved person comes to your church looking for assisstance, do you ask that person why the church should provide them with assistance? Is this a proper thing for a church to ask?

What then if there is a church member who comes asking for assistance? Do we then ask why we should give to them?

Last question, if one of your church members came to you and asked specifically for food because there was none in the house and the children were hungry, how would you respond? Would it make a difference if the person who asked was a single mother? If the children were older or younger?

Do we need to the why of the request before we give, or should we give and let God provide the increase.

Now, I am not talking about panhandlers here. I am talking about people who have real needs, whether or not they are saved.

If we really have to ask why, then I am betting that we are very deficient in what is being preached from the pulpit. We should minister to the needs of others because God's Word tells us to.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Cailiosa]

One of the biggest reasons why I say we should help those outside of our church as much as we can is because you can't refuse someone help, and then give them the gospel. In order to give them the gospel you have to help them. Well actually you don't have to help them, but they will be resenting you if you didn't help them so then they certainly won't want to hear about Christ when you refused them help.

menangeriekeeper:
If your friend was a memeber of the church and her testimony was well known in the church than she most certainly shouldn't have had to fill out a form of why she thought she deserved help from a church. Really I don't think anyone should. But the Deacons of the church should have helped her out or found someone to help her out as soon as she let it be known she was struggling. After all thats what the deacons are for, to take care of the needs of the members of the church so that the pastor can concentrate on feeding the word of God to the members of his church and on the outreach of the church.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

One of the biggest reasons why I say we should help those outside of our church as much as we can is because you can't refuse someone help, and then give them the gospel. In order to give them the gospel you have to help them. Well actually you don't have to help them, but they will be resenting you if you didn't help them so then they certainly won't want to hear about Christ when you refused them help.

I understand the sentiment, but I would be more worried about what God thinks than I would about what the lost world thinks. Our motivation ought to always be to please and glorify God, not man.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Cailiosa]

I wasn't saying that I was worried about what they think, it's just that they wont want to listen to you after you rejected their request for help.

If you were starving and asked a local church for help, and they refused, would you then want to be witnessed to? No, because now they have just made it clear to you that they don't care about you, and that they don't care if you die from starvation.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Caliosa,

I understand all of that. I just think that the sole reason we should do charity is to be obedient to Christ and glorify him. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[pinoybaptist]

In a way, yes, I guess we do treat church members differently. If we had to similiar calls, one a church member and one not, and only the funds to help one, we'd help the church member. I guess we feel that our main responsibility is to "our own." Is this worng?

Absolutely not !

Our primary responsibility is to our own. Even that one quoted by a poster about "I was hungry and you fed me, naked and you clothed me" is pertinent to those who are the Lord's, or, as you said, "our own".

The world and what you call "the unsaved" takes second priority.

Even among our own, the widows who are widows indeed, get top priority, I think.

 

[Deacon]

Charity

We stopped giving out money a long time ago.

Any member with a financial need can ask the deacons for assistance and it is usually covered by a check written to cover the need made out to the person requiring payment.

The second time someone comes asking for funds the deacons require counseling and a financial checkup.

We have a thriving food bank that has been rated #2 in the county for serving members of the community at large.

We are able to purchase food for pennies on the dollar from the Philadelphia food back AND we have a good relationship with a few neighborhood markets that need to distribute unneeded stock.

We encourage anyone with a financial need to get their food from the food bank and use their meager finances to pay for the things we can not cover easily, like gas or rent etc...

The church was bitten by panhandlers in the past but this system has been sucessful and has eliminated many of the problems.

Rob

 

[ituttut]

The members of the church who had need of it, the widows, and probably non members who needed help also. Annianias and Saphira's money may not all have been in the right, but there was many other members in that church who were selling their belongings and property so that the church could help those in need. They didn't just keep the money to buy a new building, if they even had one.

I like that "They didn't just keep the money to buy a new building, if they even had one."

But addressing that "church" then, and the church today, is two different things. The church today is not the "kingdom" church. That church had all things in common, and all the believers were together.

We see it was not "many members" but all brought all they had. The ones with land and/or homes sold and bought other things of the others of the church. All brought money and placed at the Apostles feet, and distribution was made according to each need. They were of One heart, and One soul, and All things were common.

This is what we see different "cults" trying to duplicate in their "communes". But they will fail, as will all "communistic" regimes. Not because of liars as Ananias and Sapphira (apply Hebrew 6:4-6 for those of That church, once enlightened), but corruption from the top.

That Jewish Pentecostal church was doing what Jesus had said His people were to do. Doesn't this sound like the "sermon on the mount? Isn't this the same program given in Luke 12:22-34. This looks like, and is that which is to come, the millennial blessing. As promised, hadn't the Holy Ghost come? The prayer of "Our Father which art in heaven" was in the process of being answered. But even in the "kingdom" some will rebel (witness Ananias and Sapphira).

The vernacular we would use today is they (Israel) "blew it". Not these faithful ones, but God's nation, His people. When they stoned Stephen, Israel was cut-off. They refused their King, and now they refused their High Priest, and the Holy Ghost. No wonder He will return in His wrath, and fiery anger. It is justified.

Praise God for Damascus Road, and the Body of Christ, and our rapture to escape the holocaust to come.

So I don't believe we are to endeavor to equate our church, with their church, that church that was invested with not only the power to work miracles, but all were filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:4)

How do we stack up against that church? Actually not too bad, but definitely not the same. That church (hierarchy) had the power to work miracles, and our church doesn't. They were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and we all are to seek to be filled with the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 5:18).

They still made blood sacrifices, kept the Sabbath, the Passover, the Law of ordinances, and we do not. Those all faded for the Grace of God is sufficient through our Lord Jesus Christ.

What are our instructions? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and we will be saved, and we are born to good works. We need to determine His will for our lives. Every Christian should read the book of Ephesians at least once a month.We also find we first take care of our families, and those in the church (I Timothy 5:8), and then if we have the resources to distribute to others, giving out the Word, chapter 6:18.

I like you believe many will have to answer for these huge "monuments" for all to gawk, and "ooh and aah" over, as they say "will you just look at all we have done for Christ". Isn't it beautiful to our eyes and for all to gaze on.

 

[Brother Bob]

Don't forget;
I was hungry and you fed me not please! Just make sure you are feeding them and not making a car payment.

 

[Dale-c]

Depends on whether you personally know them. I live in an urban area so I know almost everyone but I keep forgetting some of you live in the city where you sometimes don't even know your next door neighbor. Yes, I would be more careful if I didn't know them.

It is always a help to know the people you are dealing with. Our church is in a city of about 20,000 so it is a little harder.

Bob, do you ever have people from out of town ask?
I find those are the most difficult to deal with, they say they are on their way somewhere etc.
Any time something like this happens, we never pressure the people of the church to give, but let all do as the see fit.

Oh, Bob, do you live in a rural or urban area? I was a little confused by your post.
I live in a small town but our church in in a bigger town.


Over all, I would like to think that if I helped someone in need, that it would be worth it if every once in a while, the money got misused.

As for people within our church, I don't think anyone has ever asked, but when we have known to help, we did.
Especially in the case of a widow once.

 

[menageriekeeper]

Okay, now I can see all!

Who said financial counseling if someone needs to be helped twice?

Tell me what good financial planning is going to do for a single mother with two teenagers who's sole support is a disability check and child support that together don't add up to more $1200 a month?

Let's have a real world budget:

rent: $350
power : $100
water/sewer: $50
phone: $25 (with no long distance)
gas: $50
medicine: $160
groceries: $400
doctor bills: $50
car maitenance: $25
gasoline: $100
car ins: $75

Oh wait, I'm already over the monthly amount (by almost $200) and no one has clothes yet!

But you're going to do financial planning? Yeah, that's real charitiable. (possibly a valid thing to do in some cases, but first we must look at reality)

 

[Marcia]

Well, Menageriekeeper, here I am. I don't think I have much to contribute.

I have read of churches where a mechanic offered services to single moms on their cars, handymen offered to help fix things around the house, and things like that. I think those are good ideas.

A church could pool resources from volunteers for single moms, maybe older lowerj-income people on fixed incomes, and people on disability and offer these services free or at low cost. That would help financially a lot. :wavey:

 

[lgpruitt]

Excellent. That is one of the best ways to reach the unchurch, or even the churched! We are to be giving...not foolishly...but giving from the heart to those in need. Perhaps that person or family hasn't even asked for help...
I know one time we knew a family in my former church that was truly struggling. They never asked for help. We took groceries and left them on their porch just before they were to get home. We never told them...they never asked.
:Fish:

It isn't the churches responsiblity to take care of them and help them out, but it is the churches responsibility to reach them with the gospel of Christ. We should be charitable, because remember what Christ said, I don't remember where this is so I'm just quoting from memory.. "I was hungry and you fed me not, I was naked and you clothed me not...." When we give "charity" to a lost person, that is an excellent way for us to witness to them, to show to them were not a bunch of holier than thous that don't care about them. I believe that Christ truly wants us to help those that we can. Many churches don't help the lost, poor needy people because they take the same attitude you do, that "Well it's not our responsibility! Somone else will help them, we have more imortant things to do." More important things? Like what? What could be more important than reaching others for Christ?

 

[menageriekeeper]

Marcia, that remark was meant for whatever, not you!

But I'm glad you came.

So, thinking back on those times when you were raising your son, what would you have liked help with?

Money? Things around the house, like fixing the faucet or the roof? Babysitting so you could get some time to yourself?

Little things like reading material?

I think sometimes Christians just don't understand just how much they CAN do to help others.

 

[Marcia]

Marcia, that remark was meant for whatever, not you!

But I'm glad you came.

Oh, okay. :smilewinkgrin: Thanks.

So, thinking back on those times when you were raising your son, what would you have liked help with?

Money? Things around the house, like fixing the faucet or the roof? Babysitting so you could get some time to yourself?

Little things like reading material?

Yes, yes, and yes! All that would have been great! Someone to look at my car when things might have sounded funny, too. I really needed some help in the apt. -- I am not a fix-it person. I did my best but did not know how to do more complicated stuff. It was a rental, so maintenance did the necessary stuff, like fixing leaky faucets and they even put in my window ac unit.

But I wanted some way to hang coats and couldn't figure it out. Also, I had a few other things that I just let go. My son and I lived in a one bedroom apt. for 13 yrs. My son had the bedroom, and the living room was also my bedroom and study. We just moved out this past Feb. because they are tearing the apts. down. My son now rents a room in a house and I'm in another apt.

I was laid off two jobs during this time -- it was quite difficult. I have to say that the first time, some people in my Sunday School put some money together for me and that was very helpful and encouraging.

I think just the offer of help can do enormous good by encouraging the person and letting her know people care. :thumbs:

 

[lgpruitt]

I was a single mom for about 3 years. (and ony 3 years) Being single is very, very difficult...
I was a rental also. I did this out of having someone else do the basic upkeep for me. I knew that I was not capable of doing home repair or upkeep myself.
Living paycheck to paycheck is difficult enough. And, things got worse than that for me at one time. But, I can not fathom being laid off twice.

God bless all the single parents out there doing their best to make ends meet.

 

[Deacon]

Who said financial counseling if someone needs to be helped twice?

Tell me what good financial planning is going to do for a single mother with two teenagers who's sole support is a disability check and child support that together don't add up to more $1200 a month?
[SNIP]
Oh wait, I'm already over the monthly amount (by almost $200) and no one has clothes yet!

But you're going to do financial planning? Yeah, that's real charitiable. (possibly a valid thing to do in some cases, but first we must look at reality)

Hey that was me!
Think of it, did God say He would supply our needs.... or not?
Someone with limited financial abilities needs help.
Throwing money at a problem may help temporarily but examining the problem and really trying to fix it takes work.

If we see this woman spends $400 on groceries (as your example did), we can offer to let her use the food bank at our church (for free) and she has just gained $400 that we didn't have to give her.

If we see someone who is burdened by debt and still paying for a cell phone and gym membership (and this has been seen in real life situations!) then we can identify and suggest ways to reduce expenditures.

I still cringe at the family that asked us to pay their morgage payment two months in a row and then left the church when we refused to pay their health club dues.

Rob

 

[menageriekeeper]

Well see, therein lies the problem of the OP. This woman has gone to her church, but she must ask and ask as they only give one time help (I hope I'm explaining things correctly) They know that this is a problem that is not going to go away for her, it's not a secret. Nor is the problem that her church doesn't have the funds, the send folk on Carpenter for Christ trips and other such things all the time.

So our question now becomes, how do get our churches to recognize that they aren't really caring for their own members?

As for your example, some folks simply can't tell the difference between want and need because they have never been needy. That's why I said financial counseling might be appropriate in some cases.

 

[bapmom]

MK,

I think what most are saying is that the churches can't just take on individuals and support them completely. The individual needs to do something to try and improve their situation...either through learning how to stretch their finances, or earning more somehow...etc. And actually, the Bible has some pretty strict definitions for what constitutes a "widow" that is to be helped by her church. Biblically she needs to be upwards of 60 years old. The Bible specifically says that young widows are able to remarry and the church should not be their means of support. Of course this wouldn't rule out helping a church member in need.

I also think our churches have become pretty derelict in this area. But for the most part I believe this is because WE have become derelict in it. Who is "the church" anyway, but us? When speaking of "the church" helping others I believe it is more of a reference to individuals within the church seeing needs around them and being willing to lend a hand.

I understand your frustration in this MK. Ive been where your friend is sort of, though not a widow in any way.....just poor and needing help. Then again, maybe she should read up on George Mueller. His God is her God as well, and He can make miracles happen for her, too. It might happen through her church, even.

Have you tried calling her pastor and asking him about this?