Child molesters in church?

[tinytim]

After reading this thread I am very disturbed. There are two teens here that need help. Yes what the older one did is disgusting and vile, but to throw her away to Satan is just wrong. The younger one does not need to be around the older one. I pray for all involved. Again, I think Bapmom has some very good advice.

I want to ask you all that thinks the pastor should just kick the older teen out of church a question.... What scripture do you have to keep a sinner from church. Or Christ? There are too many emotions in this thread. And as Mr Spock would say, we are not thinking logically.

What sin should keep a person from coming to church? Child molestation?
What sin can not be forgiven? Child molestation?
What sins were you forgiven from?

Now, don't think I am upholding molesters! They are disgusting! but so were some of us....OK, all of us were disgusting in God's eyes before we were saved...
Remember that our righteousness is as filthy rags!

A molester can be forgiven and changed.
And to all you preachers out there: If you don't believe that, then what are you doing preaching?!! Don't you dare go into the pulpit tomorrow morning and blaspheme God's grace! God was gracious to you, show his grace to others!

I'm not going to condemn the pastor quickly.. After all the older teen has not been convicted yet. And all we have here on BB is one side of the story.
It seems that the church today is to fast to throw someone out that has problems. Christ is not like that.... Maybe that is what is wrong with our churches... we have become clubs. We want to uphold a false, perfect image.... no church is perfect... and while I am at it, gossip is just as wrong as any other sin in God's eyes.

I have seen Matt. 18 in this thread somewhere... You know the church discipline section in the NT..

Read the whole chapter, not just what you want to hear,
especially vs 23 through 35.
Here it is:
Mat 18:23-35
(23) Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
(24) And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
(25) But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
(26) The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
(27) Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
(28) But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took [him] by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
(29) And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
(30) And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
(31) So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
(32) Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
(33) Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
(34) And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
(35) So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
For all you that want to stone this older teen, and condemn her to Hell, don't you dare ask God to forgive you of anything, until you are willing to show mercy.

Yes what was done was disturbing, and awful, and disgusting. But let's not forget the eternal fate of the sinner's soul as well.

 

[LeBuick]

I applaud you for that position TinyTim. I know I would not allow the older child around other children in the Church but to kick her out would be to banish her soul to endless death and say that she is not salvageable, even by Jesus.

I believe Jesus can save anyone and we should take every ounce of our lives leading the lost to the LORD.

 

[TaterTot]

When we had a strikingly similar incident in our church, my husband talked with the teen perpetrator alone and with his mother. Later, he talked with the two of them and the parents of the child involved. Grace was extended, as far as it could possibly have been at that time, and no one told the boy he couldnt come back to church. But he hasnt come back. And the human in me is thankful.

This is such an unfortunate situation. My heart truly goes out to everyone involved.

 

[LeBuick]

When we had a strikingly similar incident in our church, my husband talked with the teen perpetrator alone and with his mother. Later, he talked with the two of them and the parents of the child involved. Grace was extended, as far as it could possibly have been at that time, and no one told the boy he couldnt come back to church. But he hasnt come back. And the human in me is thankful.

This is such an unfortunate situation. My heart truly goes out to everyone involved.

I think your Hubby handled that well. Has anyone heard from the boy that hasn't come back? We had a Church here shame a boy into suicide. He said he was gay.

 

[Dr. Bob]

We have a mandate to protect the innocent that must supercede our concern and trying to work with/win the molestor, et al.

Any church that will not take immediate action to deal with any of the situations in the 7 pages of this thread is a sham.

The ongoing saga of "pastor" Bob Gray in Jacksonville (now up to 30 girls he molested while the church "disciplined" him after the fact with a weak slap on the wrist) shows that such vile and reprehensible conduct THRIVES in many churches because they want to protect themselves and their reputations/image more than they want to protect the precious lives entrusted to their care.

Very sad all around.

 

[El_Guero]

Why is there a desire to not extend Christian fellowship and protection to a Christian victim, yet there is a demand to allow a wolf into the fold AND a demand that the wolf be afforded protection of the Church in the 'hope' that she might be saved?

I am normally all for giving any and all every opportunity for salvation - but, allowing wolves within the church is not what I read that we were commanded.

The perpetrator has had time. She has been told of her sin. She has been witnessed to. She needs to be turned over to her sin before she DESTROYS more little children. How many more children should be sacrificed to the evil one?

This 'girl' can be legally charged as an adult. She is old enough to be responsible. If she was 14, I would expect her to be disciplined. But, at 17 she needs to be churched and her victims need the protection of the Church.

1 Corinthians 5:12-13 12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore "put away from yourselves the evil person."



John 10:10-13 10 "The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly. 11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. 12 "But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. 13 "The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep.


1 Thessalonians 4:2-8 2 for you know what commandments we gave you through the Lord Jesus. 3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 5 not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6 that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified. 7 For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness. 8 Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who has also given us His Holy Spirit.



Ephesians 4:17-19 17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, 18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; 19 who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.



1 Corinthians 5:4-5 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

 

[Gina B]

I want to ask you all that thinks the pastor should just kick the older teen out of church a question.... What scripture do you have to keep a sinner from church?

What scriptures do you have that say we shouldn't protect people from wolves?

What scriptures do you have that show church is for sinners?

The body of Christ, aka the church, is the forgiven, not the ravenous wolves who prey on the lambs.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Thank all you for your concern and replies. My daughter is in the hospital... she has been diagnosed with meningitis. She is much better today, but will be there for a few more days. I'm exhausted, mentally and physically. I'm going to bed. My wife got a little rest today. Pray for my daughter, and the girl that has hurt these children. I pray for her soul, and do not wish her eternal damnation, but salvation. Grace and peace

 

[El_Guero]

Reformed

I am praying for the health and safety of your family.

 

[TaterTot]

I think your Hubby handled that well. Has anyone heard from the boy that hasn't come back? We had a Church here shame a boy into suicide. He said he was gay.

yes, he lives just around the corner. He is wild as ever.

Reformed believer, I am so sorry for the turmoil your family is in. You have my continued prayers.

 

[bapmom]

but no one has said that the molester ought to be afforded protection.......and most certainly no one said that we ought to side with the molester over the victim! and certainly no one said that the victim ought not be protected, either. Unless you are referring to this church.......I can't understand the non-reaction there either. That is why I wonder if things are perhaps being done behind the scenes until more is proven. But if she is a known homosexual, as was said more recently, than we know she was unrepentant of sin far before this assault happened.


As more info has been forthcoming during this discussion, then yes, IF she were a church member she'd be "churched", as someone put it. But it was stated earlier that she is NOT a member.

So as I asked before (not rhetorically) what can actually be done? Should there be security guards at the church doors to tell her she's not allowed in the building?

reformed, you asked in your OP what should be done about the molester, so thats what I addressed first. Im sorry if you got the wrong impression, and I certainly wouldn't want to cause you more stress or pain. Im praying for your family, too. Im impressed that you don't wish her eternal damnation........I don't know how Id do in that area if it were me. But that is God's grace showing in your life. Im glad your wife got some rest.

 

[Gina B]

Thank all you for your concern and replies. My daughter is in the hospital... she has been diagnosed with meningitis. She is much better today, but will be there for a few more days. I'm exhausted, mentally and physically. I'm going to bed. My wife got a little rest today. Pray for my daughter, and the girl that has hurt these children. I pray for her soul, and do not wish her eternal damnation, but salvation. Grace and peace

Yow! I hope she gets better very very soon, with no lasting problems from it. Poor girl! :flower: And parents...I know it's very hard to have a child seriously ill.

 

[LeBuick]

We have a mandate to protect the innocent that must supercede our concern and trying to work with/win the molestor, et al..

Can you point me to this mandate?

I'm not suggesting putting the 16 year old over the girls youth department or giving her an opportunity to be alone with the youth in the Church. However, don't forget Jesus put Judas the thief over the finance department. No, I'm not Jesus and not willing to go that far but I do believe in a GOD of second and third chances. You would hope the child eventually confesses her sin and repent.

It's not allowing the wolf in the fold, it's praying GOD will help his sheep to take off the wolf costume or freely go to where the wolves will be wolves. It is not our job to decide who is a sheep and who is a wolf. Jesus will do that on the great day.


Reform, sorry to hear about your daughter. My prayers are with you and yours.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Say what? I'll let you think through the HUNDREDS of Scriptures that speak of taking care of those in need, the hurt, the vulnerable.

Even the ONLY definition of "religion" in the Bible speaks of our watchcare over those who have no protection (James 1).

As an elder, I have a DUTY from God to take watchcare over God's flock He has entrusted to me.

Anyone who would NOT point out and see that fit punishment goes to one who "offends a little one" is not reading the same Bible as I have.

 

[gb93433]

Say what? I'll let you think through the HUNDREDS of Scriptures that speak of taking care of those in need, the hurt, the vulnerable.

Even the ONLY definition of "religion" in the Bible speaks of our watchcare over those who have no protection (James 1).

As an elder, I have a DUTY from God to take watchcare over God's flock He has entrusted to me.

Anyone who would NOT point out and see that fit punishment goes to one who "offends a little one" is not reading the same Bible as I have.

Excellent point. Seems like that is what scripture talks about what a mill stone was to be used for when one prevents children from coming to Christ.

 

[Gina B]

Should there be security guards at the church doors to tell her she's not allowed in the building?

Yes, if that's what it takes.
Put yourself in that situation. You go to church. An unsaved man comes in and sexually assaults you. You tell your family and your pastor. The pastor simply says "I'm sorry", and the man keeps coming back to the church.
Your husband keeps taking you back to the church.

I have a hard time thinking that you'd honestly find this to be the right and Godly way for everyone to behave.

If I were in that situation and that was the reaction, I shouldn't even have to ask for the guy to be removed. That's expected. They are to protect me, and I'd do the same for them. And a husband who tried to take me back with the molester? I'd leave him until he grew a backbone and got a few priorities straight.

But that isn't the case. It's worse. This happened to a child, who depends on the adults in her life to protect her. The church has failed her in that thus far. Her parents haven't. Good for them! :thumbs:
Shame on the church who has failed her and is failing their members.

 

[tinytim]

I agree that the perp should be punished to the full extent of the law.

But should we bar people coming to church that are sinners?
Do we tell someone that has been convicted of Child molestation that they cannot come to church?

Let's just forget that Christ died for everyone.

Yes the victim should be protected. But we are forgetting that this teen hasn't even been convicted yet.

Just suppose someone accused you, and before you had a chance for it to come to trial, your church kicked you out.

BTW, let's just kick all sinners out of church... We don't neet them there.
Then we can truly worship God and feel good at the same time.. knowing everyone worshiping with us is as perfect as we are!

There are ways of protecting the victims, while still ministering to the sinners.

Christ did.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

I agree that the perp should be punished to the full extent of the law.

But should we bar people coming to church that are sinners?
Do we tell someone that has been convicted of Child molestation that they cannot come to church?

If it means protecting those in the Church, yes.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[tinytim]

Then what about the guy down the road that did time for murder, or the thief across the hill, after all, while everyone is in church, he could be pillaging our cars. Or what about the womanizer.... he might make a pass at my wife. Or the homosexual... why, he might make a pass at you.

I guess it is true... churches have gone from hospitals to showcases for the saints. And we say we want to get America on track... How can we, if we keep people away from the truth.

How many of you sing "Just as I am"?
Maybe we should change the words to "Thank God I am not like that sinner" Sounds like the publican's prayer.... too many pharisees and publicans posing as Christians today.

 

[El_Guero]

Brothers and sisters,

I opened another thread so that the family might not look at our discussion of perpetrators in general and just feel all of the pain of their current situation over and over.

Fair?

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=805556#post805556