Child of God....or Son of Chucky?

[Yeshua1]

I believe the elect were ever loved of the father from the foundation of the world. The scripture say's, Jer 31:3 I have loved thee with an everlasting love: Therefore in loving kindness have I drawn thee. Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners Christ died for us (elect). We love him because he first loved us (elect). So how could we have ever been anything else but sheep and never goats. God hated our sin's, but he has always loved his own. Yes, we were taken captive by Satan, we were blinded to the truth, we were in darkness concerning the gospel, but Gal 1:15-16 when it pleased God who separated me from my mothers womb, and called me by his grace, to reveal his Son in me. Does he do this for goats ? No, his beloved sheep. I lay down my life for the sheep, and other sheep I have, which are not of this fold, them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice John 10:15-16. Thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people (elect) from their sin's.

If you were always one of his sheep, were you also in a lost/unsaved condition at same time?

One of the Fathers, yet also not yet saved?

 

[Van]

Before we drift into absurdity, why not do a word study of the various meanings of the Greek word translated "son?"

1. a son

a. rarely used for the young of animals

b. generally used of the offspring of men

c. in a restricted sense, the male offspring (one born by a father and of a mother)

d. in a wider sense, a descendant, one of the posterity of any one,

(1) the children of Israel

(2) Sons of Abraham

e. used to describe one who depends on another or is his follower,
(1) a pupil [Thus a person not dependent on God can be said to be a "son" of the devil.]​

2. son of man

a. term describing man, carrying the connotation of weakness and mortality

b. son of man, symbolically denotes the fifth kingdom in Daniel 7:13 and by this term its humanity is indicated in contrast with the barbarity and ferocity of the four preceding kingdoms (the Babylonian, the Median and the Persian, the Macedonian, and the Roman) typified by the four beasts. In the book of Enoch (2nd Century) it is used of Christ.

c. used by Christ himself, doubtless in order that he might intimate his Messiah-ship and also that he might designate himself as the head of the human family, the man, the one who both furnished the pattern of the perfect man and acted on behalf of all mankind. Christ seems to have preferred this to the other Messianic titles, because by its lowliness it was least suited to foster the expectation of an earthly Messiah in royal splendor.​

3. son of God

a. used to describe Adam (Lk. 3:38)

b. used to describe those who are born again (Lk. 20:36) and of angels and of Jesus Christ

c. of those whom God esteems as sons, whom he loves, protects and benefits above others

(1)in the OT used of the Jews

(2) in the NT of Christians

(3) those whose character God, as a loving father, shapes by chastisements (Heb. 12:5-8)

d. those who revere God as their father, the pious worshipers of God, those who in character and life resemble God, those who are governed by the Spirit of God, repose the same calm and joyful trust in God which children do in their parents (Rom. 8:14, Gal. 3:26 ), and hereafter in the blessedness and glory of the life eternal will openly wear this dignity of the sons of God. Term used preeminently of Jesus Christ, as enjoying the supreme love of God, united to him in affectionate intimacy, privy to his saving councils, obedient to the Father's will in all his acts.​

​

 

[salzer mtn]

If you were always one of his sheep, were you also in a lost/unsaved condition at same time?

One of the Fathers, yet also not yet saved?

Either you believe the love scriptures I put up were to the whole world, none excluded or you believe those scriptures are to the elect. So do you believe God changes concerning his love in that he hates one day and loves the next ?

 

[The Biblicist]

I believe the elect were ever loved of the father from the foundation of the world. The scripture say's, Jer 31:3 I have loved thee with an everlasting love: Therefore in loving kindness have I drawn thee. Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners Christ died for us (elect). We love him because he first loved us (elect). So how could we have ever been anything else but sheep and never goats. God hated our sin's, but he has always loved his own. Yes, we were taken captive by Satan, we were blinded to the truth, we were in darkness concerning the gospel, but Gal 1:15-16 when it pleased God who separated me from my mothers womb, and called me by his grace, to reveal his Son in me. Does he do this for goats ? No, his beloved sheep. I lay down my life for the sheep, and other sheep I have, which are not of this fold, them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice John 10:15-16. Thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people (elect) from their sin's.

I have no problem with purposed love and purposed salvation before the world began, but I have a real problem with the idea that actual salvation already occurred before the world began - Isa. 46:10-11

I think some on here are confusing purpose with application. We were justified according to eternal purpose but we were not literally and actually justified until time and space.

 

[Iconoclast]

I believe the elect were ever loved of the father from the foundation of the world. The scripture say's, Jer 31:3 I have loved thee with an everlasting love: Therefore in loving kindness have I drawn thee. Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners Christ died for us (elect). We love him because he first loved us (elect). So how could we have ever been anything else but sheep and never goats. God hated our sin's, but he has always loved his own. Yes, we were taken captive by Satan, we were blinded to the truth, we were in darkness concerning the gospel, but Gal 1:15-16 when it pleased God who separated me from my mothers womb, and called me by his grace, to reveal his Son in me. Does he do this for goats ? No, his beloved sheep. I lay down my life for the sheep, and other sheep I have, which are not of this fold, them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice John 10:15-16. Thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people (elect) from their sin's.

:applause::thumbs:.....yes......I do not know anywhere that a goat turns into a sheep

 

[Iconoclast]

I have no problem with purposed love and purposed salvation before the world began, but I have a real problem with the idea that actual salvation already occurred before the world began - Isa. 46:10-11

I think some on here are confusing purpose with application. We were justified according to eternal purpose but we were not literally and actually justified until time and space.

:thumbs::applause:

 

[The Biblicist]

:applause::thumbs:.....yes......I do not know anywhere that a goat turns into a sheep

You are confusing purpose with reality. Do you know anywhere anyone that is saved or justified but turns into unsaved and unjustified? However, that is equally true in regard to God's eternal purpose as according to his eternal purpose were were already saved and justified! However, that is patently false in regard to our condition in time and space. We were sheep and children of God according to His eternal purpose, but we are born into this world with a goat nature and a nature like Satan's - enmity and rebellion, and that is the essence of being a "child" of someone - you manifest his traits and character.

 

[Iconoclast]

If you were always one of his sheep, were you also in a lost/unsaved condition at same time?

One of the Fathers, yet also not yet saved?

Jesus came to seek and save that which was lost.....lk19......ezk34.......

His sheep were lost. He seeks and saves ALL of them....

Goats do not desire God or His word....they go from death to death.

You did a good job refuting the PB error.

 

[Iconoclast]

You are confusing purpose with reality. Do you know anywhere anyone that is saved or justified but turns into unsaved and unjustified? However, that is equally true in regard to God's eternal purpose as according to his eternal purpose were were already saved and justified! However, that is patently false in regard to our condition in time and space. We were sheep and children of God according to His eternal purpose, but we are born into this world with a goat nature and a nature like Satan's - enmity and rebellion, and that is the essence of being a "child" of someone - you manifest his traits and character.

We are born with a sin nature from the first Adam.....we are children of wrath and disobedience. .....no where are we spoken of as goats or devils.....certainly not Eze 34

 

[Van]

:applause::thumbs:.....yes......I do not know anywhere that a goat turns into a sheep

Lets look at this carefully:

When we are conceived, are we sheep or goats? Sheep, i.e. the sheep. If we physically die before we are saved, then we become goats. If we are saved at some point in our physical lives, then we turn into "My sheep" from being "the sheep."

In summary, we are all born as "the sheep." We turn into "My sheep" when saved. And if never saved, then the sheep turn into goats at death.

 

[Yeshua1]

Lets look at this carefully:

When we are conceived, are we sheep or goats? Sheep, i.e. the sheep. If we physically die before we are saved, then we become goats. If we are saved at some point in our physical lives, then we turn into "My sheep" from being "the sheep."

In summary, we are all born as "the sheep." We turn into "My sheep" when saved. And if never saved, then the sheep turn into goats at death.

ALL are born as sinners, and as such, all would be in the Kingdom of satan, and NOT part of Kingdom of God!

 

[Yeshua1]

Jesus came to seek and save that which was lost.....lk19......ezk34.......

His sheep were lost. He seeks and saves ALL of them....

Goats do not desire God or His word....they go from death to death.

You did a good job refuting the PB error.

ALL before we get saved though are in the Kingdom of satan, NOT children of God, but of wrath, so how do those terms relate to us being sheep?

is there ANY difference in the state/condition of those to get saved, or those to stay losr BEFORE those to get saved actually had that happen to them?

Would we see ANY difference before God before salvation was to happen then?

 

[Aaron]

And only those who have the Holy Spirit are the children of God, and we get Him when we receive Jesus thru faith, right?

Only those born of the Spirit are the children of God.

 

[Van]

ALL are born as sinners, and as such, all would be in the Kingdom of Satan, and NOT part of Kingdom of God!

1) We are made sinners at conception, and thus are born sinners and are sinners during our lifetime, and if God does not put us spiritually into Christ, we die as sinners. The sheep are sinners from the get go.

2) If we are chosen and set apart in Christ based on God crediting our faith in the Truth, then we are changed from being sinful sheep into being holy and blameless sheep, i.e. "Christ's sheep."

3) If we are not "in Christ" we are in the realm of darkness, but if we are transferred into the Kingdom of His Son, we are in the Kingdom of God.

 

[The Biblicist]

1) We are made sinners at conception, and thus are born sinners and are sinners during our lifetime, and if God does not put us spiritually into Christ, we die as sinners. The sheep are sinners from the get go.

.

May I ask you what occurs at conception that makes them sinners, rather than "in Adam" when "all have sinned" aorist tense punctilliar action?

 

[PreachTony]

We are made sinners at conception, and thus are born sinners and are sinners during our lifetime, and if God does not put us spiritually into Christ, we die as sinners. The sheep are sinners from the get go.

Van - What, then, is your belief on the destination of persons of die in infancy?

 

[percho]

Is the word of God, that which was proposed by God, before the foundation of the world?

In other words, is the word of God, the promise of God, made before the world begin, the hope of eternal life?
Is it, the word of God, that the Christ, the Son of God would shed his precious blood for redemption and was this determined, before the foundation of the world.
Is it, the word of God, that God would elect/choose in the above Christ, some to be holy and without blame before him in love: And: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.


Does firstfruit, it is always singular and I do not know why the translators always put a plural ending, mean only?

Doesn't it have the implication of other fruit of like kind? That the elect are chosen as an example. Do you get the feeling from Paul that he chose to be a child of God or that God had chosen him to be a child of God.

But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, Gal 1:15

Did Paul ask Jesus to come into his heart that day or did God choose Paul according to the purpose of God?

What has God told those begotten as a kind of firstfruit, that he God is doing?

Eph 1:9,10 2 Cor 5:18,19

Now I am not sure what all that includes but I do believe there will be other fruit beside the first fruit of his creatures.

Now would it matter in the long run whether a baby or anyone could choose God? Maybe there are elect babies as a kind of first fruit of his creatures and non elect babies. However, I am not going to worry about either.

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Matt 24:14
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 2 Cor 5:19
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this the whole of man. Ecc 12:13

 

[Van]

We are made sinners at conception, and thus are born sinners and are sinners during our lifetime, and if God does not put us spiritually into Christ, we die as sinners. The sheep are sinners from the get go.

May I ask you what occurs at conception that makes them sinners, rather than "in Adam" when "all have sinned" aorist tense punctilliar action?

Romans 5:19 says the many (everyone except Christ) are made sinners. We are made at conception.

Lets consider what would happen to someone who has never sinned, and they sin. They become (1) unholy, (2) separated from God and (3) have piled up wrath for which justice requires punishment. Now consider someone, say at conception, have they committed any sin? Nope. Have they piled up wrath requiring punishment? Nope. Are they children of wrath rather than children of God? Yes. Are they separated from God, spiritually dead? Yes. Bottom line, to be made sinners means we are conceived in a sinful, separated from God, spiritually dead state. We must be born anew.

 

[Van]

Van - What, then, is your belief on the destination of persons of die in infancy?

Hi PreachTony, my belief is based on my understanding of scripture. John 3:18 says he who does not believe has been judged already. When we are conceived, are we believers or non-believers, having never heard or understood the gospel? Unbelievers. So from conception until a person is old enough to know right from wrong, even though they have done nothing good or bad, are unbelievers, condemned already. But, since they have not piled up wrath, they do not face torment in retribution for their volitional sins. Does the Bible tell us clearly what happens? I think not. Will they enter heaven and enjoy fellowship with family? I think not, for Jesus is the way and no one goes to the Father except through Jesus. One possibility is they will rest in peace.

 

[PreachTony]

Hi PreachTony, my belief is based on my understanding of scripture. John 3:18 says he who does not believe has been judged already. When we are conceived, are we believers or non-believers, having never heard or understood the gospel? Unbelievers. So from conception until a person is old enough to know right from wrong, even though they have done nothing good or bad, are unbelievers, condemned already. But, since they have not piled up wrath, they do not face torment in retribution for their volitional sins. Does the Bible tell us clearly what happens? I think not. Will they enter heaven and enjoy fellowship with family? I think not, for Jesus is the way and no one goes to the Father except through Jesus. One possibility is they will rest in peace.

Two questions, then:

1. What scriptural evidence do you propose for the notion that an unbeliever who never piled up wrath is resting in peace?

and

2. It doesn't seem to fit the character and nature of God, as revealed in Jesus Christ, to condemn someone who never even had the opportunity to hear and partake of the gospel. It especially doesn't fit that nature when the person, in this case a baby/child, was not even capable of taking steps toward repentance or, in the case of Old Testament law, making atonement. In three out of four gospel accounts, Jesus even spoke of little children (whom the disciples were trying to rebuke and run off) saying that "of such was the kingdom of God, or kingdom of Heaven. What say you?